What time period Crag? I have an excel Spreadsheet circa 585 that I did for my campaign. But as many are sure to comment.... there has been great debate about the population numbers posted via canon being low for the area vs industrialization for a comparable "earth". I personally was always ok with it being low compared to the middle ages. While there are base line comparable, ( cities wars etc.) the middle ages of our world didn't have monsters and magical creatures competing for resources either.. I think the Oerth world would be far more hazardous to travel than medieval France.
Joined: Jul 26, 2010 Posts: 1612 Location: LG Dyvers
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:24 pm Post subject:
JHSII wrote:
I think I read somewhere that Gary Gygax said that the population numbers in the '83 folio represented not the total population of an area, but the number of able-bodied makes that were capable of being conscripted.
That would make the actual populations some 2-5 times greater, which would bring it more in line with real life population figures for the Middle Ages.
If I recall correctly, such a statement was in reference to the demi-human numbers only. And, it was stated directly in the '83 folio.
Joined: Nov 07, 2004 Posts: 1468 Location: Mt. Smolderac
Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:32 am Post subject:
I've never seen a study of exactly how low populations are in comparison to Medieval Europe, but let's not forget the effects of the Red Death Plague of the 490's.
If you compare it to the Black Death, given roughly the same recovery time we can assume that the population was between 15-20% higher in the 490's than what is was in 585 or thereabouts. In about 545 it would have been something like 28-30% less than what it was in 490.
This is assuming that mortality rates were somewhat the same between the Black Death and Red Death. The latter could have been less or more fatal. No real way of knowing.
Joined: Jun 25, 2007 Posts: 948 Location: Neck Deep in the Viscounty of Verbobonc
Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:51 pm Post subject:
I once totaled up the numbers in the LGG. I think the population came up to be somewhere around 2-3,000,000, not counting humanoids and other "monster" races.
Joined: Nov 07, 2004 Posts: 1468 Location: Mt. Smolderac
Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:31 pm Post subject:
bubbagump wrote:
I once totaled up the numbers in the LGG. I think the population came up to be somewhere around 2-3,000,000, not counting humanoids and other "monster" races.
I came up with about 10.5 million circa 576. That's still really low compared to Europe, although I can't remember what the size comparison between the Flanaess and Europe is. I didn't count the Baklunish.
Joined: Aug 17, 2004 Posts: 875 Location: Computer Desk
Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:15 am Post subject:
DangerDwarf wrote:
Quote:
populations of the kingdoms of the Flanaess listed in the LGG and you get 27,921,630.
1,391,833 are elves, roughly 4.9% of the total population.
680,934 are dwarves, roughly 2.4%
38,046 are half-elves, roughly 1.2% of the population.
Anyone care to take a stab at the gnomes and halfings
Joined: Nov 07, 2004 Posts: 1468 Location: Mt. Smolderac
Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:46 am Post subject:
Crag wrote:
DangerDwarf wrote:
Quote:
populations of the kingdoms of the Flanaess listed in the LGG and you get 27,921,630.
1,391,833 are elves, roughly 4.9% of the total population.
680,934 are dwarves, roughly 2.4%
38,046 are half-elves, roughly 1.2% of the population.
Anyone care to take a stab at the gnomes and halfings
1,429,316 are halflings, roughly 5.1% of the total population.
557,024 are gnomes, roughly 1.9% of the total population.
I didn't add in the Scarlet Brotherhood, which doesn't give exact numbers but estimates the population in the 10's of thousands with halflings being 2% of that. Say, 50,000 total population, that gives another 1,000 halflings for a total of 1,430,316 which is still 5.1% of the total population.
I roughed up the size of the Flanaess and it's about equal to Europe, although just by eyeballing it I'd also say that there is less arable land in the Flanaess than in Europe. So looking at the population of the Flanaess in 591 CY, it's about equal to Europe in 550 AD and 1/2 of what the population was in 1450 when we were finally recovering from the worst of the Black Death.
Joined: Nov 07, 2004 Posts: 1468 Location: Mt. Smolderac
Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:31 pm Post subject:
Alright, I'm at home sick *cough* and had nothing better to do, so I worked up an excel sheet with the populations of the various nations by race, taken from the LGG. My only variance from the info as given -
1) I estimated the population of the Scarlet Brotherhood as 50,000.
2) I lumped Hobgoblins and Goblins together in the Goblins column.
3) I rounded up and down as appropriate, so the totals may not match exactly if you add up all the race numbers. Sue me!
Keep in mind that the LGG itself says that this isn't everyone, as "minor realms" aren't included, although it also described the "minor realm" of Garal Enkdal as having a population near equivalent to the post-Wars Shield Lands.
Joined: Jul 26, 2010 Posts: 1612 Location: LG Dyvers
Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:43 pm Post subject:
That's a nice spreadsheet, smillan. Thanks for putting it together.
Anyone wanting to make use of it, however, will need to do their own research with respect to individual areas of the Flanaess because this spreadsheet doesn't include some important pieces of information. For example, in The Fate of Istus, the Scarlet Brotherhood makes extensive use of Hobgoblin soldiers, so there should be large numbers of them in that nation. Additionally, this spreadsheet doesn't include areas like the Bright Desert, which we have extensive demographical information about from various (canon) sources.
Joined: Nov 07, 2004 Posts: 1468 Location: Mt. Smolderac
Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:03 pm Post subject:
Thanks, man. Yeah, I did it straight up from the info in the LGG. I was definitely thinking about holes like the hobgoblin thing when I was doing it, as well as the stuff they talk about in the LGG that is not included. It would be interesting to see what other sources could be culled for data to round this out.
Has anyone ever talked to Gary about how they came up with some of those numbers in the LGG? So many nations had humans being 79% of the population I wondered if they were working off some formula in 3e that I don't know about. Other things seem weird to me, like how Nyrond has twice as much elves as any other nation, including Celene. That just seems off to me. I think people have mentioned that before.
...Has anyone ever talked to Gary about how they came up with some of those numbers in the LGG? So many nations had humans being 79% of the population I wondered if they were working off some formula in 3e that I don't know about...
-Ding din ding!
79% is the generic percentage for a "majority" race in D&D 3.5 (and I assume D&D 3.0). The next lowest have similar set percentages...
smillan_31 wrote:
...Other things seem weird to me, like how Nyrond has twice as much elves as any other nation, including Celene. That just seems off to me. I think people have mentioned that before.
-Well, Nyrond has a lot more turf than Celene does. Celene has a larger percentage of Elves than Nyrond does, and the Elves are in charge.
I don't like what they did with Ratik, using the formula. EGG's article in Dragon #57 (?) had about 3,000 Dwarves and 3,000 Gnomes eligible for military service, plus maybe a 900 from the Loftwood (IIRC- I don't have it in front of me) and a few hundred from the Timberway, mostly males. The Dwarves and Elves in the LGG sort of fit this, but what happened to the Gnomes? And now there are Halflings all over the place. The order in percentage probably should have been Gnomes, then Dwraves, then Elves, then Halfings, but oh well. I've decided that part of that could be that could be the difference between CY 578 and CY 591, where Gnomes got whacked or emigrated and Halflings showed up, and maybe no one cared to count Halflings in 576 (for the WOG Gazeteer), and they weren't counted for military service in CY 578. Fortunately, my campaign is currently in the summer of 578, right before the battle of the Loftwood. Sometimes working around apparent inconsistencies leads to intersting and imaginative results.
Has anyone else done a workaround somewhere to keep everything consistent?
That's ab-so-friggin'-lutely beautiful, man! Inconsistencies in percentages, minor realms, and whatever ... it's friggin' great! Score one for fandom. I've wanted one of these FOREVER!
I just put you in for a medal for valorous action above and beyond the call of duty. :) Big thank you from the fans, man. _________________ Artwork of Icarus thread, here on Canonfire!
Gallery of Art, on my own DB site.
Joined: Nov 07, 2004 Posts: 1468 Location: Mt. Smolderac
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:06 pm Post subject:
jamesdglick wrote:
smillan_31 wrote:
...Has anyone ever talked to Gary about how they came up with some of those numbers in the LGG? So many nations had humans being 79% of the population I wondered if they were working off some formula in 3e that I don't know about...
-Ding din ding!
79% is the generic percentage for a "majority" race in D&D 3.5 (and I assume D&D 3.0). The next lowest have similar set percentages...
Nice. Thanks!
jamesdglick wrote:
smillan_31 wrote:
...Other things seem weird to me, like how Nyrond has twice as much elves as any other nation, including Celene. That just seems off to me. I think people have mentioned that before.
-Well, Nyrond has a lot more turf than Celene does. Celene has a larger percentage of Elves than Nyrond does, and the Elves are in charge.
This arose from my mistaken belief that Nyrond didn't have any considerable forest within its territory. Just looked at the map, and boy was I wrong! The Gamboge by itself is bigger than Celene, then add in the eastern half of the Celadon.
Overall, I think the elven numbers are pretty high. Looking at Marklands they give 11,800 elves in the Gamboge, plus the 3,500 in the Celadon. Subtracted from the 235,638 listed in the LGG, leaving 220,338 kicking around where in Nyrond? The numbers in Marklands sound better to me as a total.
I'm with you on the order of the races by percentage, although I don't think I have as much of a problem with halflings as you do, but yeah there are some places where I'm thinking "Where are the dwarves and gnomes?"
Interesting; I find it odd that the SB population is merely 50 thousand. Its wartime accomplishments are even more impressive and explains the reliance on hobgoblins as well as the subsequent reversals - strected too thin ala WWII Japan.
Scarlet Brotherhood Supplement
Amedio: 50,000 (31,000 Olman plus 19,000 Suel - estimated)
Hepmonaland: 328,200 (56,000 Olman, 75,200 Suel and 197,000 Touv)
As for the nyrond elven issue: it is not unreasonable, remember the central flanaess was once covered in forest - isn't that just like a short-lived human.
However, the real mystery is why so many suel settled within hepmonaland. Was it the fanaticism of the SB or sheer terror of the twin cataclysms. Both sound somewhat hallow - any ideas?
Last edited by Crag on Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Aug 17, 2004 Posts: 875 Location: Computer Desk
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:12 pm Post subject:
I know smillan_31; btw great spreadsheet - thanks so much.
At first blush it struck me as odd that the southern scourge and prominent villians of the GHW relied on so small a population base. However, the more I think about the ramifications the more I like the idea. The SB historical martial equivalent looks even more like the early strategies of the Imperial Japanese Empire.
As the small resident population answers several nagging questions.
- SB Paranoia
- Skilled Assassination and Covert Undermining
- Blitz Assaults
- Reliance on naval dominance
- Subsequent trouble holding gains
- Recruitment of amedio and hepmonaland suel
- Humanoid Mercenaries and Monster Breeding
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