[nerdcav]

The classic curse of the werewolf is well known. "When darkness falls on the night of a full moon, or on the night immediately preceding or immediately following a full moon, the infected lycanthrope unwillingly changes shape and is overcome by bloodlust. During this time, an infected PC is beyond the player's control: the DM takes over the character." But what about infection from a good therianthrope, such as a werebear?

If a good character, closely tied to nature - such as a ranger - were infected by a werebear, couldn't the effects be positive? Could the ranger even come to control the transformations?

I can't imagine why werebears, who are often rangers themselves, would willingly damage any foe if the potential result would be turning them into a bloodthirsty, mostly invulnerable beast.
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[Mystic-Scholar]

I don't see why what you describe would not be the case. Werebears are inherently "good." Werewolves are inherently "evil."

You cannot give someone something you don not have. To wit: Werewolves cannot give "goodness." So any character infected by a werewolf is going to be evil -- at least when they transform into the werewolf.

Werebears, on the other hand, cannot give "evil" to the people they infect. So, if the person, him/herself were not already evil, then I cannot see their werebear form engaging in evil acts.

However, it's always been my impression that werebears were more "self-aware," not so "mindless" as werewolves. So, if an evil person were infected by a werebear, I suppose that there would be the possibility of evil acts being performed by such a werebear.

But that's just me.
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[nerdcav]

I guess the main question would be whether they lose their will at all. In terms of the lycanthrope the idea is clear that you are overcome by bloodlust as an expression of evil and the DM takes over to do dastardly deeds. But for the infected werebear? Does the DM take over and have the character go fix up houses with Habitats for Demi-Humanity? Walk old ladies across the road? Volunteer at the petting zoo? The character comes out of his blackout covered with pink bows and thank you notes? Just asking ...
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[SirXaris]

I think the question you have to ask youself, as a DM, is, 'Are the stated alignments in the Monster Manual unflexible or just guidelines?'

Technically, they are not flexible as they are not listed as 'usually'. However, that means that the lycanthropic curse is accompanied by a magical alignment change. In this case, you'll have to decide what magical/spell effects may or may not be able to overcome that part of the curse. For example, what happens if an evil NPC afflicted with lycanthropy (werewolf) dons a Helm of Alignment Change? Does it alter his were-form alignment as well as his human form alignment? What if a good aligned PC afflicted with lycanthropy (werebear) dons a Helm of Alignment Change? Does he revert to a good alignment when in werebear form or does the Helm cause him to be an evil werebear. If a magical item like the Helm can alter a lycanthrope's alignment, what other spells, magical items, or divine quests might do so?

SirXaris

[nerdcav]

Turns out 3.5 deals with this issue pretty neatly.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Lycanthrope

There's a feat called Control Shape that allows the player to try and control the infection induced transformation. Also, you can try to voluntarily transform if you're aware of the infection.
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[Lanthorn]

Nerdcav, with all your interesting and thought-provoking queries, I dub thee a "Lanthornite" acolyte!

Excellent question! Let me ponder at length, peruse my guides, and offer my stance in the not-so-distant future.

As a sidenote, if you...yes...have access to it, check out Van Richten's Guide to Werebeasts. It is invaluable on all things lycanthropic, though you will have to ask yourself the question if you wish to use non-Greyhawk informational references. I believe that the various Van Richten's Guides (there are several) are specific to the Ravenloft setting, but I have used them nevertheless to augment my games.

off to research,

Lanthorn, Query Master

[smillan_31]

The section on lycanthropy in the 1e DM's Guide is pretty good too. According to that source the change to wereform is uncontrollable for the first five years of being afflicted with the disease, but even then it doesn't seem to indicate if you can resist the compulsions of the werebeast, just that you can keep from assuming the form. Although it does say you undergo a change to the alignment of the werebeast within 2-12 months of being infected.
The way I would play a werebear is basically the same way I would play a werewolf, although instead of rampaging around the countryside at night killing livestock and farmers, the werebear will seek out evil creatures to destroy. The village up the road may suddenly find itself rid of that manticore or bandit problem that has been plaguing it.

[Argon]

Smilian,

Good solution, for the curse of lycanthropy. The other option is throwing out the alignment set in the monster manuals and just make it that the curse regardless of were type causes the individual to become an uncontrollable animal. If a true lycanthrope can be found they can nurture the infected lycanthrope. Werebears often try and nurture those they have turned, to prevent unnecessary bloodshed by a creature with no control over their animal half.

You can explain many things either way, I know smillian has many ideas on therianthropes.

Later

Argon

[smillan_31]

I do like the idea of a werebear perpetuating a rash of "seeing little old ladies across the road" incidents.

"When you wake up in the morning, you feel inexplicably tired, and your cheeks are sore, almost as if someone has been pinching them repeatedly. There is also a small pile of nice, new, shiny copper pieces in your bed."

[Lanthorn]

The 1e DMG, by far, has more information about lycanthropy than its 2e counterpart. Not sure about more recent editions.

Werebears, being of good alignment, would not 'afflict' a normal human being with the 'curse' of lycanthropy unless it was either an accident (a survivor of a mauling) or, perhaps, it was the only way to 'save' a person. I don't foresee many (normal) situations where a werebear would knowingly pass on the uncontrollable "curse" of affliction, since only natural born lycanthropes can control their changes and bloodlust (except on nights of the full moon).

Smillan is correct that the newly afflicted 'victim' is unable to control their were-change. The original DMG has a very useful table on this score, and bear in mind (pun intended!) that certain spells (such as animal or monster summonings) may cause the were-change to occur spontaneously if cast in the proximity of the afflicted person.

Furthermore, you should, in my opinion, not make it "all good" for the newly afflicted person. Even though the person may not have an induced alignment change to evil, such a condition is NOT a blessing. Again, only natural born shapeshifters can control their transformation. For the 'newly inducted' members, it is PAINFUL. Hence, perhaps the rampaging beast scenario. Even if the new werebear is not Evil per se', he may be...grumpy. The possibility exists that he may 'turn on' his friends, not because of Evil, but the inherent savagery and predatory nature of lycanthropes. Talk about "mood swings," werebeasts should take the cake! I'd still rule, for a time (months at least, perhaps lasting years til the person is TOTALLY acclimated), that the newly afflicted person suffers from certain bestial traits.

You can surely have a werebear try to help your PC 'deal with' the were-condition (maybe the one who <accidentally?> afflicted him?) until the PC either learns to control it to the best of his ability (again, takes time and experience) OR decides to lift the curse.

Also, characters receive NO experience for combat, etc., when they assume werebeast form. In the Ravenloft setting, lycanthropes require twice the amount of XP for advancement.

Werebeasts have featured numerous times in my current campaigns. I've had one PC mage afflicted TWICE, once as a wereboar, then later as a werewolf. I've had a werebear ranger NPC appear, and I am, in a completely different game, running a werebear priest of Ehlonna from Beltander (check out that location in From the Ashes, as ALL the inhabitants are werebears). Finally, my player's paladin (friend to the dude who got afflicted twice) has run afoul and incurred the hatred of a powerful foe...a high priest of Incabulos who is also a (natural born) werewolf. Suffice it to say, werebeasts have played a very prominent role in my campaign settings.

-Lanthorn

[Argon]

I ran a campaign where people went missing in a city. Come to find out their was a wererat who lost many of his kind to adventurer's so he decided to inflict the city. Converted the criminal types first then the local populace. Two of my players got infected. They had to kill the head of the nest so to speak. They had one week to do it as their attempts to cure via belladonna did not work. When the party confronted him he basically was attempting to force the two party members to change into their were-form. My son was playing a mage who augmented his burning hands spell and burned the leader of the nest to death. His friends were safe but now many people who were infected for too long had to be killed.

Makes you wonder if being part of a wererat society was the lesser of two evils or not.

Later

Argon

[Lanthorn]

In my camaign world, I made a mythical/religious explanation for the origins of lycanthropes:

To punish humanity for its sins against the wilderness (poaching, encroachment, wood-cutting without regard, etc), the Seldarine (notably Rillifane, the angriest of the Elven Powers for human transgressions), and perhaps even some of the Druidic Faith (Obad-hai, Beory) 'created' the lycanthropes, animalistic creatures that took the shape of humans to infiltrate their society so that tables could be turned. The intention was to punish humans for all the misery they'd caused the "natural order" and the wilderness. The lycanthropes would serve as protectors and guardians of the wilds, preventing humanity from spoiling it further. Initially, they were not the Evil manifestations they have become. (NOTE: In Monster Mythology, there are patron Powers for each of the various shifters... these Avatars could be considered the initial "Creations" of the individual shifter-kin). For a time, all worked as planned by the Seldarine...

In order to spare their own people (the elves) and others (demihumans) from the curse, they prevented lycanthropy from being passed to any other race other than humanity. Thus, and to this day, ONLY humans can transmit the curse while others do not.

Seeing opportunity to spread more misery in the world, Incabulos intervened. In the shadows and darkness, he corrupted the Seldarine's animal-men creations, perverting them, filling in their hearts an uncontrollable bloodlust and savagery and desire to spread the "Gift of Incabulos" throughout Oerth. Among those corrupted, the werewolves were the most willing and eager to comply...

Only the werebears were spared, perhaps due to their greater willpower against the taint of corruption, perhaps due to the intervention of the Seldarine in the final hour. Ehlonna especially took affront at what had occurred, and, both ashamed and saddened, sought to help rectify what transpired. The werebear strain, the only Good-aligned lycanthropes to 'survive' Incabulos' machinations, remain as the bastions and guardians of the forest, ever mindful and prepared to defend, not only humanity, but ALL goodly folk, especially against their hated formerly untainted brethren, the werewolves.

And to this day, the War of the Shifters continues.

-Lanthorn

[SirXaris]

[Lanthorn]

They did not comprise the 'original' stock (at least from the Monster Manual assembly), but one could surely add them to the list...or perhaps they were created to assist the werebears in the fight against the depredations of the 'other' shifters.

-Lanthorn

[Argon]

I have included a link to another thread here which has a write up on lycanthrope's. Lanthorn you have a good one here as a curse I can see a link to Incabulos. Though Rasgon and Smillian have a great thread here which not only goes into the therianthrope's but many other creatures and monsters of the D&D game.

http://www.canonfire.com/cfhtml/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=4491&start=75

Later

Argon

[Cebrion]

You might check out Van Richten's Guide to Werebeasts too, as I don't think that any source has more info on lycanthropes than what was written for Ravenloft.
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[Lanthorn]

Ceb, you and I are in complete agreement here. I already suggested to Nerdcav about the Van Richten's Guides, as it is true they are a wealth of information about all things lycanthropic.

Question: Is the Ravenloft setting considered 'canon' with respect to Greyhawk? Do the rules cross over? I know some of the rules for werebeasts in that book are unique to Ravenloft alone.

-Lanthorn

[SirXaris]

[Argon]

Technically the Ravenloft setting started as a module believed to be set in the world of GH. If you go through the ravenloft setting many major npcs were from GH. Now there are some different rules for the Ravenloft setting , I don't think its hard fitting much of the lycanthrope info in the Van Richten guide to the GH setting.

Later

Argon

[Lanthorn]

I knew there was a big cross-over between the Demiplane of Dread and Oerth, and that it was in Ravenloft where Vecna was 'banished' in his battle against Iuz.

Without deviating too much from werebeasts, I guess the general stats and information given in the various Van Richten's Guides (there are some on ghosts and other non-corporeal undead, vampires, liches, and I think artificial constructs like golems) are pertinent to Greyhawk. Yet other material seems specific to that setting...wondering how many people use it. Again, perhaps a separate thread.

Back to lycanthropes...

-Lanthorn

[Argon]

Lanthorn,

I liked your take on bestial traits for lycanthropes. While in a human form they might be more in control, though much like wolverine sometimes the beast comes out. When in a bestial state its harder for the lycanthrope to deny or suppress its animal nature.

Later

Argon

[Lanthorn]

Thank you, Argon.

I also read Rasgon's lycanthropy (therianthropy) post that you linked, and, as always, he is very descriptive and creative. When I was writing out my own version of the 'creation story' of werebeasts, I was thinking of Rasgon's extensive works. He, too, notes the corruptive influence of Incabulos, so either great (or mad) minds think alike! I like his take on the Beastland Animal Lords as having a part in this tale. It is well-written, as one would expect from him.

In short, back to Nerdcav's initial question...I think that afflicting a PC with lycanthropy, even a "good" variety, is fine and dandy (as noted above, I've done it twice to ONE PC), but I strongly encourage him not to make it all fun and rewards. To the afflicted person, lycanthropy, even from a "benevolent" werebear, is NOT a fun experience. True, you may get some great 'powers,' but you also get some serious drawbacks, too. In my opinion, this should be a 'life-long' quandary for his 'cursed' ranger. "Do I keep this "gift" or finally find a priest or mage to remove this curse?"

Kinda like the Hulk. Banner must learn to control those rages, and thus, the inner beast within, but he is also trying to find a way to cure the monster as well.

-Lanthorn

[Argon]

Not to mention that lunar events and silver should still be the bane of all lycanthropes. So maybe during a blood moon all lycanthropes have less control then they would like. Each type becoming more bestial than normal.

Later

Argon

[Lanthorn]

Good point, Argon. In one sourceguide I read, most werebeasts' transformational cycles are tied to Luna (the larger moon) while only a few are tied to that of Celene. However, when both moons are full, ALL Oerthian lycanthropes shift, and this is a dangerous time indeed! Druids harvesting their precious mistletoe had best be-were!

Afflicted lycanthropes have no control initially as we mentioned earlier, and such control takes, I think, a minimum of 2 yrs. Certain other 'triggers' make control even more difficult, as you note.

-Lanthorn

[Argon]

Well that could also be when even druids struggle with their shapechange ability. Perhaps the influence of the rogue beastlord's in Rasgon's post might have influence over all creatures that change shape into their animal forms when both moons are full. So one can play with characters that like to use polymorph spells.

Later

Argon