Joined: Nov 01, 2007 Posts: 543 Location: NOW IN DALLAS! Loving the new digs! Kickin' it with a new avatar!
Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:16 am Post subject: " ... re-birth of a fantasy setting ..."
Well, crap. I had nearly composed this entire post, and I accidentally clicked to close a few tabes that I had open for linking, and I closed the pane for composing it, and lost it all. Blargh. But ... more to the point:
So, today I was doing a little surfing and scouring of the 'net like I often do, and I came across something that led me to a place that I've not been in ages ... the Wizards of the Coast homepage. Now, I haven't really been big on WotC since 4th Edition began, because Greyhawk kind of fell by the wayside. (And please, let's not turn this into a "WotC bashing" session.... please. That's not what this thread is for.) Since I'm much more of a Paizo fan now (and have been since the days when they just were the publishers of Dragon and Dungeon magazines, and I was a subscriber), I was aware of some of their plans for GenCon.
What hadn't occured to me was that WotC would have their own plans for GenCon. Interesting thing, WotC is making the keynote adderess (with Kevin Kulp, EN World's admin "PirateCat" as the keynote moderator/MC), and they're making announcements and such for what's coming. And it turns out ... it's a doozy. There's been a bit of buzz and fuss on the 'net it seems, since WotC made and announcement a few weeks ago on their Previews coumn. To wit:
Previews, August: In the Works, Bart Carroll wrote:
Keynote Address: The Future of Dungeons & Dragons
Calling all heroes, your presence is required! Join us for an unprecedented look into the future of Dungeons & Dragons, including the evolution of the game, the re-birth of a fantasy setting, and the next generation of art. Wizards of the Coast is proud to host the first-ever Gen Con keynote address on Thursday, August 16th, to share with the legions of D&D fans what’s in store for the game that has changed gaming forever.
Speakers include Wizards of the Coast President and CEO Greg Leeds, Senior Manager for D&D R&D Mike Mearls and some of the greatest creative minds in the industry.
The keynote begins at 7:00 p.m. at the Indiana Roof Ballroom and will also be live-streamed at DungeonsandDragons.com/events.
Obviously, there's a lot of speculation on the 'net about who and where and what. There's a strong suposition that it may be another reboot of the Forgotten Realms franchise. But there's a lot of other speculation, to boot. Some say that, "Almost has to be Greyhawk, what with the aura of grognardism this edition is trying to generate." It's speculative, at best ... and it's a fair amount of it.
Obviously, we're probably going to hope for a Greyhawk franchise "re-birth". There's always hope ... they did a poll a while back, and wanted to know what we wanted to see in D&D magazines ... and some of the top answers they later published included settings like Ravenloft, Dragonlance, and Planescape. The first two of those have been done already, and I don't think that they are likely to do Planescape ... so, that at least gives me hope for the future of the World of Greyhawk.
For sake of reference:
Dragonlance revisited 13.4%
Ravenloft revisited 8.8%
Everything on this list! 7.9%
Planescape revisited 7.7%
Greyhawk revisited 7.3%
Spelljammer revisited 6.7%
Eberron revisited 6.2%
War campaigns 5.6%
Nautical campaigns 5.2%
Gods and primordials 4.7%
Dark Sun revisited 4.5%
The Feywild 4.4%
Mystara revisited 4.1%
Demons and devils 3.1%
Secrets and intrigue 3.0%
Underdark campaigns 2.9%
Constructs and artifice 2.4%
Nothing on this list! 1.1%
Skullduggery 0.9%
Joined: Nov 01, 2007 Posts: 543 Location: NOW IN DALLAS! Loving the new digs! Kickin' it with a new avatar!
Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:32 am Post subject: Date correction for Keynote.
Cebrion wrote:
It's coming up fast. Those who are going need to be Johnny on the spot and post what info they hear.
OH! Crap! did I foget to put that part in my post?!!
Yep ... it's coming up next GreyTalk chat night! Next thursday, August 16th, 1012. I can't wait to get to be all geeky-giddy next Thursday! I'll go back and edit the original post to include the date, with the time that's already there.
[Edit: NVM ... the date is there in the middle of the text, I just didn't notice it.] _________________ Artwork of Icarus thread, here on Canonfire!
Gallery of Art, on my own DB site.
...they did a poll a while back, and wanted to know what we wanted to see in D&D magazines ... and some of the top answers they later published included settings like Ravenloft, Dragonlance, and Planescape. The first two of those have been done already, and I don't think that they are likely to do Planescape ... so, that at least gives me hope for the future of the World of Greyhawk.
For sake of reference:
Dragonlance revisited 13.4%
Ravenloft revisited 8.8%
Everything on this list! 7.9%
Planescape revisited 7.7%
Greyhawk revisited 7.3%
Spelljammer revisited 6.7%
Eberron revisited 6.2%
War campaigns 5.6%
Nautical campaigns 5.2%
Gods and primordials 4.7%
Dark Sun revisited 4.5%
The Feywild 4.4%
Mystara revisited 4.1%
Demons and devils 3.1%
Secrets and intrigue 3.0%
Underdark campaigns 2.9%
Constructs and artifice 2.4%
Nothing on this list! 1.1%
Skullduggery 0.9%
-Hmmm... GH was supposed to be the default for D&D 3.0. They might decide "too soon."
Spelljammer was popular for a while, was it not? Did it ever get a real focus, as some of the others?
Icarus wrote:
...Obviously, we're probably going to hope for a Greyhawk franchise "re-birth". There's always hope ...
If they do use GH, instead of "blowing it up", I like this solution:
Varthalon wrote:
...to most of us, Greyhawk = Flanaess and that the Flanaess is only a small continent on the planet. WotC crashed a whole planet into the forgotten realms as part of their RSE. For Greyhawk lets be a bit more polite... lets use all of the undeveloped regions like the Celestial Kingdom, Hyperboria, Empire of Lynn, etc to explain the introduction of most of the new material like the Dragonborn, Teiflings, and Warforged...
...maybe it's time to establish what links the Flanaess has to the rest of Oerik?
Of course, if they do want to "blow it up", there are so many possibilites...
Iuz commits suicide; replaced by a 2nd level Expert (physicist) who re-equips his armies with laser pistols...
Scarlet Brotherhood officially changes it's ideology to LG; declares eternal war on Iuz...
Hesuel Ilsahr then overrun by cannabalistic halflings from the underdark...
Irongate overrun by cannabalistic halflings from the underdark...
City of Greyhawk overrun by cannabalistic halflings from the underdark...
The Temple of Elemental Evil overrun by cannabalistic halflings from the underdark...
Then entire nation of Ull overrun by cannabalistic halflings from the underdark...
Icarus wrote:
...And please, let's not turn this into a "WotC bashing" session.... please. That's not what this thread is for...
-I thought that's what every thread was for!
On the topic of bashing WOTC if it screws up GH, we can go back to those aforementioned threads...
baronzemo wrote:
We all hope and pray that's it GH, but if it's forgotten realms, i'll go on a kobold killing spree
jamesdglick, are you channeling Ed Greenwood? I take that back. Your ideas are far more creative and interesting than anything generated in his "books".
Frankly, I think the best approach for WOTC would be to take a minimlaist approach, and work on those areas that never got much detail in sourebooks, such as the Sheldomar Valley, the Iron League, Perrenland, and the Baklunish West. They could use the latter as a jumping off point for the rest of Oerik, and it owuld not be even hard to do. Heck, they would just have to take the Old Al Qadim stuff and change the maps and names a little. That is what I always thought the best, and easiest way to describe that region was anyway.
I do fear them "re-imagining" Greyhawk like I heard they did to FR and other worlds. If they smash it with a comet or a spell plague or something else, than it really isn't Greyhawk anymore, is it?
Joined: Nov 07, 2004 Posts: 1468 Location: Mt. Smolderac
Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:51 pm Post subject:
I was pretty satisfied with what they did with Dark Sun for 4e. It was almost a reboot. Taking off from just after the events in the introductory adventure that was included with the boxed set. They managed to pack the same info as the original books, plus alot of additional fluff and crunch into what was a pretty small sourcebook. That gives me hope that if they did something with GH it might be similar. That said, I doubt everyone would care for that approach. Hopefully the alternative would be picking up the timeline after the last round of play in LG.
At least they're not cannibalistic halflings from...the bayou.
Quote:
On the topic of bashing WOTC if it screws up GH, we can go back to those aforementioned threads...
On the other hand, I've sometimes seen a tendency for people to pour through books looking for any little mistake and citing them as evidence that the company "just doesn't care" about Greyhawk, in some cases when the mistakes don't actually exist.
e.g.
Complaining about a halfling cleric of Wastri in the Saltmarsh chapter of the 3e DMG II, when the character is actually a halfling druid of Obad-hai being driven insane by a cursed relic of Wastri.
or
Complaining about a Baklunish monk of the Scarlet Brotherhood in the ToEE novel, when the book never actually says he's part of the Brotherhood. The POV character assumes that he is because they're the only monks he's ever heard of, but he's never left his home village before the start of the novel, so he's not the most reliable source for assessing someone's political affiliations.
Sometimes you just need to step back, take a deep breath, and say "I don't agree with what they've done here, but I'm sure they're not actively trying to destroy Greyhawk."
Joined: Jul 12, 2001 Posts: 452 Location: Ithaca, New York
Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:59 pm Post subject:
I think the term "re-birth" is significant here. They're starting over. Given the upcoming release of Ed Greenwood's FR, I suspect that's the answer, but since FR has been reborn a few times already, it's also a bit overdone. I think Dragonlance has more name recognition than GH, though, so that's where my money is.
Joined: Nov 01, 2007 Posts: 543 Location: NOW IN DALLAS! Loving the new digs! Kickin' it with a new avatar!
Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:41 pm Post subject: "re-birth" setting
Nellisir ... you make a really good point there.
Although ... I think that I have to say that I am not entirely sure about the conclusion. The "Ed Greenwood Presents: Elminster's Forgotten Realms" book has been out and talked about since just after New Year's, I think. Maybe St. Valentine's Day? Something like that. At any rate, I would like to believe that there'd be a marketing director out there somewhere with better sense than making an announcement that's already been made.
Although, I'm not entirely certain whether Ed ever wrote "spellplague" stuff for 4e D&D. So, if WotC is taking the Forgotten Realms back to the Greenwood era, and publishing Elminster and all that, it may indeed be a "re-birth".
But, conversely, I think that I would have to say that I should think that they are trying to drum up quite a bit more nostalgia for this whole "D&D Next" thing. They've been saying that the idea is to do like Alderac Entertainment Group did with the Legend of the Five Rings[i] game. They brought the old school fans back into the fold by telling the world it was okay to enjoy the older setting, before a lot of changes took place. Or if they wanted to play in some alternate future thing that hadn't happen, or a home brew, or the official timeline, or what have you. ... Anyway ... I think that may be the reason that they are trying to drum up support with the older fans by republishing some of the core rulebooks from previous editions ... they want those fans back. And bringing back an essentially out of print setting would definitely do that.
I'd love to see something like the FR book done for GH ... that's the premise of this website, in fact. That GH knows no edition. "Editions Change. Greyhawk Endures." ... It would mark an enormous coup for the fans if that's the business model that they began to go with for campaign settings. Editionless. That would likely sell a [i]*lot* of books, I should think. And maybe they could do online publishing for crunchy stuff to accompany the books, and instead of one massive team doing rulebooks, they could have several smaller teams all doing stats for the same stuff in the book, only in different editions?
Who knows? Anyway ... just speculating again. I don't think that it's going to be FR, though there's a good amount of reasonabiliy and a small amount of logic to it. _________________ Artwork of Icarus thread, here on Canonfire!
Gallery of Art, on my own DB site.
Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 5:13 pm Post subject: Re: " ... re-birth of a fantasy setting ..."
Icarus wrote:
Obviously, we're probably going to hope for a Greyhawk franchise "re-birth".
I disagree. I don't hope for that at all-- yet.
I think fans of the Greyhawk setting dodged a bullet when it was passed over for treatment under 4E. The incredible violence that was done to the Forgotten Realms genuinely makes me feel sorry both for Ed Greenwood and its multitude of fans. Some of that was due to design limitations built into the 4E system (the "points of light" concept). Most of it was due to the urge to "advance the timeline" and give someone new a chance to put their indellible stamp on the setting.
I honestly don't want to see the latter happen to Greyhawk, unless I am very, very confident that the person in charge A) is a died-in-the-wool fan of the setting and B) has the amount of creative control required to express that love of the setting in published material.
As for the former, the 5E rules are still way too much in a state of flux to tell whether they will or will not have any inherent design features that would impose mechanical limitations on the setting. Tieflings come to mind as a prominent example.
All in all, I withhold judgement as to whether or not this would be a net plus or minus until I get a *lot* more specifics.
Joined: Jul 12, 2001 Posts: 452 Location: Ithaca, New York
Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:14 pm Post subject: Re: "re-birth" setting
Icarus wrote:
Nellisir ... you make a really good point there.
Although ... I think that I have to say that I am not entirely sure about the conclusion. The "Ed Greenwood Presents: Elminster's Forgotten Realms" book has been out and talked about since just after New Year's, I think.
I'd give Forgotten Realms a 50/50 shot at best...which isn't all that great, really. But there's nothing else that's as obvious.
I agree that the only thing they could announce at Gen Con, if the setting is FR, is that they're relaunching FR based on EG'sFR, which would mean immediately redoing EG'sFR, and that doesn't make any sense.
Dragonlance is the next most obvious choice. It's got a clear storyline, great name recognition, and WotC hasn't used it in...fifteen years? On the downside, it's pretty locked in to its mythology and timeline. I don't see rebooting it as a real option; they'd have to pick up from where things lie, which would mean a new villain, etc, etc.
Mystara doesn't have name recognition, but it's Old School and Classic and all that crap, and you can throw anything in and it fits. WotC could reboot it and tweak it and smooth off the rough edges and mess with the timeline, and I think it would go over pretty well. So, now that I'm thinking about it, FR is still the obvious choice, with DL and Mys tied for second.
Birthright is probably too esoteric to lead off 5e. AQ, RL, PS, SJ, and all the rest are way too esoteric. EB...I just don't see it.
Joined: Nov 01, 2007 Posts: 543 Location: NOW IN DALLAS! Loving the new digs! Kickin' it with a new avatar!
Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: "re-birth" setting
Nellisir wrote:
Dragonlance is the next most obvious choice. It's got a clear storyline, great name recognition, and WotC hasn't used it in...fifteen years? On the downside, it's pretty locked in to its mythology and timeline. I don't see rebooting it as a real option; they'd have to pick up from where things lie, which would mean a new villain, etc, etc.
Mystara doesn't have name recognition, but it's Old School and Classic and all that crap, and you can throw anything in and it fits. WotC could reboot it and tweak it and smooth off the rough edges and mess with the timeline, and I think it would go over pretty well. So, now that I'm thinking about it, FR is still the obvious choice, with DL and Mys tied for second.
Birthright is probably too esoteric to lead off 5e. AQ, RL, PS, SJ, and all the rest are way too esoteric. EB...I just don't see it.
Definitely agree with your points there. Especially Eberron ... I don't think that will make it. I think that it got way over-published, and there's a lot of people that would look at it as being shoved down their throats if WotC started it up again for this edition.
Dragonlance ... well, it is true that WotC hasn't done anything with DL in a decade or two ... but, they did license it to Margaret Weiss' Sovereign Stone Press for a number of years in the Early 2000s, and there was a rather large RPG with more than 20 books in the line, I believe, that were published through '07 or so. Again, much as with Eberron, I think that the setting is too fresh for it to be reused. Ravenloft, too, I think is another one that falls into this catagory. White Wolf published it under license through '06. And they've done stuff with it here and there in Dragon magazine since.
The others (Birthright, Spelljammer, Planescape, Al'Qadim, et al.), I agree, are much too esoteric for being brought back as a main setting.
Greyhawk Grognard wrote:
I disagree. I don't hope for that at all-- yet. ... I think fans of the Greyhawk setting dodged a bullet when it was passed over for treatment under 4E. [and other stuff]
Hey there, Joe. good to see you on the boards, as always. :) You made some really salient points, and I would agree; I don't think that I want to see it butchered. I kind of feel like they learned their lesson the hard way when they blew up the Realms, and I think that they likely have had enough feedback on that by now to not do anything too bone-crunchingly stupid like that again.
But, that's not to say that a re-brith of Greyhawk would be good, you're right on that count. I, too, would want to see it done by someone who's familiar with the setting, and has a good spin on how to put out material that "feels" like GH. Erik Mona did a marvelous job of that when he was at the lead of Dragon and Dungeon magazines. While I know that there are others that aren't fond of "Mona-hawk", I really loved it, and I think that it was infinitely better to have something that is 90+% good than to have nothing at all.
Greyhawk Grognard wrote:
Tieflings come to mind as a prominent example.
I think this is the only point that I would disagree with. While I personally don't care for tieflings one whit, I think that a (tiny) bit of room can be made for them. Pathfinder has done a great job of this, for example, by letting them be there, but making them only a minor part of the setting. I think that especially prior to the Flight of Fiends, there were a great deal of demonic/devilish/fiendish creatures around that there could be plenty of offspring. Cambions would be common enough, I think, and their descendants, as well. I *do not* think that they should be anything more than very exceedingly rare, but I think that we could spare a tiny, little corner of the Empire of Iuz for them, or what have you.
Now, Warforged, however ... if they put that crap in, I'll go on a kobold-killing rampage with Baron Zemo, I swear it. _________________ Artwork of Icarus thread, here on Canonfire!
Gallery of Art, on my own DB site.
Anna ... you know, I 'd forgotten about that thread! I can't believe that it's been almost three years ago precisely that Glen posted that! (linkified that for you)
I definitely agree with Rule #5:
Quote:
5th – Anna must do the maps. Period. Not subject to debate or discussion. Only if Anna is unavailable is any other cartographer acceptable.
I can't think of anyone in their right mind that would disagree with that one. :) _________________ Artwork of Icarus thread, here on Canonfire!
Gallery of Art, on my own DB site.
Wouldn't the sales of 1e influence the decision? If Wizards found strong sales in 1e, might that influence them to do Greyhawk? This of course, pure speculation, I've no idea how well 1e is selling.
Joined: Jul 12, 2001 Posts: 452 Location: Ithaca, New York
Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: "re-birth" setting
Icarus wrote:
Dragonlance ... well, it is true that WotC hasn't done anything with DL in a decade or two ... but, they did license it to Margaret Weiss' Sovereign Stone Press...
Yup. That's exactly why I phrased it that way. But considering that none of those books showed up at any of my local gaming or book stores, I think WotC wouldn't blink at skipping right over it.
There's a lot of appeal to RL, and I wouldn't mind it coming back; I just don't see it as the tentpole setting of D&D Next, which is what I think this announcement will be about. Unless, of course, D&DN is going to be an updated version of Masque of the Red Death....
Joined: Jul 10, 2003 Posts: 1124 Location: New Jersey
Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:13 pm Post subject:
Nellisir,
I would agree that taking out the common fantasy races and focusing on the horror aspect of RL, like Masque of the Red Death would be great. Especially with all the Vampire love resurfaced out there. But if they have sparking vampires its more than kobolds on my menu.
If GH was to be rebooted I would focus on Western Oerik as the Flanaess have been done and many GH fans can't agree on the canon of said material. So someone can place there stamp in the west. Especially if François Marcela-Froideval writes for it.
Joined: Nov 01, 2007 Posts: 543 Location: NOW IN DALLAS! Loving the new digs! Kickin' it with a new avatar!
Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:45 am Post subject: Re: "re-birth" setting
Nellisir wrote:
... But considering that none of those books showed up at any of my local gaming or book stores, I think WotC wouldn't blink at skipping right over it.
There's a lot of appeal to RL, and I wouldn't mind it coming back; I just don't see it as the tentpole setting of D&D Next, which is what I think this announcement will be about. ...
Hmm ... that's interesting, Nellisir. I guess maybe it's regional or, something. odd that I have most (if not all) of the books. I got every one that I saw.
I wouldn't mind Ravenloft coming back, either. But, I also agree that it's a bit too esoteric for the main focus of DnDNext. They wouldn't be going out of their way to mention it in a keynote address for the biggest convention in gaming, and doing a live streaming simulcast, if they were just going to mention that they were doing another boardgame based on Ravenloft. :) And I think that because it's so niche, they'd not make fantasy horror the central keystone of the next edition. They want this to be the biggest announcement of the year. Just like when Blizzard Entertainment does BlizzCon, and announces the new expansion to the World of Warcraft. It's big, and they want it broadcast anround the world to make the biggest splash in the marketing worl that it can.
And that's what WotC is going for ... so, I'm trying to decide which would make a bigger splash. Something that hasn't been in WotC-published books in a dozen years? Oh, wait, that could be Dragonlance *or* Greyhawk, *or* Forgotten Realmscouldn't it? Settings with most loyal fanbase? Any of 'em. Long running and establlished market already? Any. Proven sales record? All of 'em. Recorded, historical canon, but with plenty of room for new stuff? Less so FR, but still any of 'em.
So ... what've I decided? Nothing. I'm still just formulating this in my head, and waiting for 5pm Thursday night (16th)! It's like talking about the Packers vs. the Cowboys on Saturday, before going over to your buddy's house on Sunday. No one's gonna know 'til then what happens, but, it doesn't keep us from running around the snack table and talking about it while we stuff ourselves with Fritos. _________________ Artwork of Icarus thread, here on Canonfire!
Gallery of Art, on my own DB site.
Joined: Jul 10, 2003 Posts: 1124 Location: New Jersey
Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 1:52 pm Post subject:
Icarus,
Be careful too many fritos and you won't be able to fly. Though I'm certain you would descend a lot quicker that way. I wonder what the Vegas odds would be on what setting sees a rebirth?
Joined: Nov 28, 2010 Posts: 91 Location: San Diego, CA
Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:33 pm Post subject:
Maybe "re-birth" means renaissance. I know, it's an optimistic viewpoint instead of an Oerth-shattering one, but my fingers are crossed that it's not something that lights our collective faces on fire if it is indeed a World of Greyhawk revisitation.
Perhaps Mordenkainen bumps his head, had passed out, and the whole "From the Ashes" period never really happened as it was just old Mordy having a lengthy dream-sequence
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Any of 'em. Long running and establlished market already? 