The land that is now the Duchy of Urnst - was it once ruled by the Flannae?
Yes.
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If so, what was the name of the land?
The name isn't recorded. Likely, it was a collection of tribes rather than a unified nation. However, it's thought that it was part of Vecna's Empire of the Spidered Throne.
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And approximately how long ago?
About a thousand years in the past they were displaced by the Suel houses of Maure. Before that, the area was pretty much all Flan (and halfling and dwarf).
I'd have thought that the Duchy of Urnst is a bit far from Vecna to be paying tribute. OK I know that Vecna was supposed to have ruled from the Nyr Dyv, but given he's been placed concretely in the Sheldomar, that sounds more like myth of the "George Washington slept here" variety than fact.
That said, before the fall of Sulm the Bright Desert basin was home to several Flannae "nations" (more likely small city states/tribal areas of which Itar and Sulm were the most advanced). It seems likely that the lands north of the Nyr Dyv would also be settled/civilised. Of course the Maure rolling in there during the Migrations likely obliterated/absorbed any evidence of that.
Oh and there's StarHaunt in the Celedon (detailed in Marklands). That's very likely to have been Flannae.
Unless of course you choose to interpret the Sheldomar Vecna as a pretender in possession of the two artifacts, and that Vecna actually ruled his empire thousands of years ago(just prior to the rise of the Suel and Baklunish empires), and that it was located somewhere in the central Flannaess.
This is of course what I have chosen to do, as Vecna is supposed to be almost unknown(even among sages), and placing him in the Sheldomar at the crrently accepted date makes him extremely well known which is contrary to all previous Vecna lore. I go so far as to even place a false Kas with the Sheldomar Vecna who is in possession of the actual Sword of Kas, and like his predecessor, he eventually succumbed to the sword's suggestions that "Kas" should take over the supposed Vecna's empire. A twisted example of history repeating itself.
Just my little way of correcting what I think is a huge mistake regarding the historical placement and demystification of Vecna. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Well, Vecna ruled Duchy Urnst according to Gary Holian and Erik Mona's map. I guess that doesn't make it quite official, so I qualified it with "thought that it was."
I don't remember where I got the map, so I'll just post it on my Photobucket account:
Keeping in mind that Vecna's empire was must more a collection of places he collected tribute from than a single unified government. I assume undead minions would have come by once a decade or so to collect whatever they thought was useful.
Well, Vecna ruled Duchy Urnst according to Gary Holian and Erik Mona's map.
Where does he get those wonderful toys?
Or in the case, maps.
Never seen that before - but mightily impressed all the same.
It's possible that be might have collected tribute from that far away, but it's not clear that if he's extending tribute collection to Urnst why he's not doing the same in northern Furyondy? Were there tribes there that were able to resist Vecna in a way that the "Urnsian" Flan weren't? Was it the influence of the olve of the Vesve/Highfolk precursors? Were there Olve or Flan in the Celedon that could limit his reach there? What about north or east of the Nyr Dyv?
I guess I'm asking what was the basis of Vecna's power to extract tribute and what defined its limits?
Well, Vecna ruled Duchy Urnst according to Gary Holian and Erik Mona's map.
Where does he get those wonderful toys?
Or in the case, maps.
Never seen that before - but mightily impressed all the same.
It's possible that be might have collected tribute from that far away, but it's not clear that if he's extending tribute collection to Urnst why he's not doing the same in northern Furyondy? Were there tribes there that were able to resist Vecna in a way that the "Urnsian" Flan weren't? Was it the influence of the olve of the Vesve/Highfolk precursors? Were there Olve or Flan in the Celedon that could limit his reach there? What about north or east of the Nyr Dyv?
I guess I'm asking what was the basis of Vecna's power to extract tribute and what defined its limits?
P.
His limits are very simple: "I do what I do because I can. I stop where I do because that's where I can't."
IIRC, he ran into trouble with Keraptis, which is probably why the Empire of the Spidered Throne didn't extend far along the northern shores of the Nyr--that's where White Plume Mountain is, and Keraptis's base of operations.
The Elves were definately still in the Yatils. Their great cities there hadn't been destroyed yet (though that day would come, and soon) The Ur-Flan may have been in the Yatils as well (I've read conflicting timelines on that), but they were probably still there. IIRC, that's what attracted Tsojcanth to the area. They may have been able to extend some protection to people living in what is now Furyondy that people living in what is now the Urnst state were not able to enjoy. See the High History of the Flanaess in Oerth Journal 1 for details on what the Elves were doing when Vecna was in high form.
His limits are very simple: "I do what I do because I can. I stop where I do because that's where I can't."
Well and good, but what were his limits?
Theala_Sildorian wrote:
IIRC, he ran into trouble with Keraptis, which is probably why the Empire of the Spidered Throne didn't extend far along the northern shores of the Nyr--that's where White Plume Mountain is, and Keraptis's base of operations.
That's a solid possibility. Keraptis is dated to have occupied WPM about -800 CY. So he'd have been extant about the time Vecna would have been spreading east. Also there's Veralos in the Rift.
Theala_Sildorian wrote:
The Elves were definately still in the Yatils. Their great cities there hadn't been destroyed yet (though that day would come, and soon) The Ur-Flan may have been in the Yatils as well (I've read conflicting timelines on that), but they were probably still there.
Olves in the Yatils? Don't you mean the Rakers and Griffs? I assume you're going off the OJ1 timeline. That timeline, though great, isn't Canonical alas.
There might be Ur Flan in the Yatils though...there were certainly Flan in Yecha at this time. I'm not sure how involved they'd have been in the Crystal lands of what would be Furyondy. Vesve Olve sounds more likely.
The lands north of the Bright might have been occupied by the people who built Starhaunt. It's possible that Starhaunt fell due to the actions of Vecna and that's how he gained sway over the lands. Or Starhaunt had already fallen and left the land open to Vecna's tribute takers.
What makes me wonder is how Vecna projected his power? As magical emissaries who came with terror an magic to cow the locals or as armies of undead. Or both - a emmisary who came and if defied, raised the dead from the cairns and graves to slay and take the tribute to the Spidered Throne in lives and gold.
Well, from what canon there is, and the general description of Vecna, I would say that Vecna's Empire was more a collection of the fearful who payed tribute. There is little left of the "empire," which I reconcile by there being no empire as we traditionally think of them. There are no Vecnian ruins, no garrisons, no roads or aquaducts. Rather, Vecna and his emissaries show up every few years and claim tribute. Anyone who doesnt pay dies.
If a Knight, for example, of the Oerdians came riding through and asked whos land it was the peasants would respond "Vecna's," or " Lord Such and Such, Vassal of the Spidered Throne." Those who refused to do so, if found out, died horribly.
Vecna inspired fear, not loyalty, IMO, and has never revealed any organizational ability. Kas was his general, and ruled his Oerthly dominion for some time, but his organizational ability seems to be limited in scope, and involved a weak hierarchy rather than strong organizational structures.
This is evident by the near instantaneous disitigration of the "Empire," when they died. (This is using Gary Holian/Erik Mona/Sam's version of events, and Sam's Timeline in particular, which shows the "Empire," falling in a few brief years).
As to why his Empire did not extend into northern Furyondy, on strong possilbity is that there was to little population to make it worth while. Vecna did not build much of anything, only conquered what others had built.
While we're on the subject of Urnst I'd like to bounce an idea I've had off others. I know that "Ivid the Undying" attributes the Mighty Servant of Leuk-O to the Oeridians, or at least to them possessing it in the migration period, but in considering possible ties between Leuk-O and the name of the city of Leukish, and with the Duchy being predominantly Suel, that Leuk-O was probably a Suel wizard who settled in Urnst during the migrations, possibly the leader of those who chose to remain there instead of continuing on toward Thillonria and the Tilvanot. Artifacts like the Mighty Servant "feel" more Suel than Oeridian to me, so that particular artifact was probably in the possession of the Suloise Maure or Urnst or whatever you want to call them and would also explain how that one pocket of Suel in some of the richest lands in the Flanaess managed to hold out against rampaging hordes of Oeridians. I'd chalk up the claim in Ivid, just like the unrealistic timeline of the life of Galap-Dreidel, to wishful thinking and peasant folk tales.
What makes me wonder is how Vecna projected his power? As magical emissaries who came with terror an magic to cow the locals or as armies of undead. Or both - a emmisary who came and if defied, raised the dead from the cairns and graves to slay and take the tribute to the Spidered Throne in lives and gold.
There is an attested case in canon of how Vecna dealt with uppity locals. It is the quotation at the beginning of Vecna Lives!:
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". . . In the third year of his ascendancy, Burgred, King of the Mara, refused the tribute of heads the Whispered One demanded. The One-Named-In-Whispers took only himself and Kas, his evil counselor, and devastated the land of the Mara with his magic. Burgred paid with his own head."
So, in the case of Burgred, Vecna and Kas dropped by and wrecked utter arcane havoc in person, without the use of functionaries.
I also found the following amongst Erik Mona's LGG out-takes:
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Despite Vecna’s control over such a wide berth of land, his actual grasp did not extend far from his own Rotted Tower, said to be located in the Rushmoors, or the now-ruined town of Tycheron, along the northern banks of the Velverdyva, not far from modern Dyvers. Between these centres of depravity ranged several tribes of debased Flan, who were all too happy to carry out the debased orders of Vecna, or those of his most trusted lieutenant in Tycheron, Kas the Bloody-Handed. Many otherwise good-spirited tribes, however, lived under the depravity of Vecna because, as the fledgling nation of Keoland would learn in the century to come, all but subservience to the Whispered One led to certain death.
This seems to support the idea of no strong organizational super-structure.
There's two problems with the Leuk-O = Suel theory (aside from all the Canon saying he was Oeridian).
1: Leukish was built by the Great Kingdom after they annexed the Duchy in the late 2nd century CY.
2: The LGJ says Leuk-O found the Mighty Servent in the Belching Vortex of Leuk-O in the Hestmark Highlands. So it seems to be either a left over from the high tech civilisation of the City of the Gods or from a parellel Oerth.
Thanks, Ras (and others). Excellent info. Cool map, by the way. The 'People of Krovis', living down in what will one day become the Pomarj - aren't they Flan too? How do they differ from the folks in the Alliance, to their immediate west?
The 'People of Krovis', living down in what will one day become the Pomarj - aren't they Flan too?
Yes.
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How do they differ from the folks in the Alliance, to their immediate west?
They weren't allied with demihumans. Perhaps they were protected from Vecna by their demigod, Krovis (now asleep in the Drachensgrab hills), or perhaps they just weren't civilized enough to bother conquering.
It might still be named for Leuk-O. Good catch, Smillan.
Thanks! They were both named after Luke Gygax after all.
But who was Luek-O then, other than some guy a belching vortex was named after?
Also, another linguistic puzzle, what if any is the relationship between Ahlissa and Queen Ehlissa? We know that Queen Ehlissa ruled somewhere around -1100? The LGG says Ahlissa was a Flan kingdom conquered by the Aerdi so was it a long-lived descendant of the Queen's unnamed country, or was it given that name by the Aerdi after the mythical Queen?
Leuk-O was an Oeridian noble/general who found the Mighty Servant in the Belching Vortex and used it in the age when several such warmachines (the Machine of Lum the Mad, for instance) were being used by the Aerdy to conquer the Flanaess. The Belching Vortex was named after him because of that by the Aerdy.
Queen Ehlissa's realm was roughly in the area of modern Ahlissa and the Aerdy named the region based on that Flan legend and country.
Leukish could have been named for Leuk-O and might well have been as a way for the Aerdi to stamp their authority on the newly subjugated Urnsian Suel.
Ahlissa/Ehlissa: Queen Ehlissa's realm was based around present day Irongate/Principality of Zelradton (that's the South Province in old money). The Flan kingdom that she founded probably persisted there until the Aerdi conquered it. The Land of Ehlissa became the province of Ahlissa.
Well, Vecna ruled Duchy Urnst according to Gary Holian and Erik Mona's map. I guess that doesn't make it quite official, so I qualified it with "thought that it was."
I can't speak to whatever discussions resulted in that map a few years back (mostly because I can't remember them), but I should point out that at this point in time I definitely wouldn't support Vecna's empire extending into Urnst, and probably not into the Domain of Greyhawk, either. I rather think of its eastern border ending somewhere around Dyvers, with the bulk of it situated in the Sheldomar as shown in the map.
Indeed, the whole point of having the Maures migrate south of the Nyr Dyv was to avoid any Vecna entanglements, so as I said I wouldn't extend his influence into Urnst.
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