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[LG] Oligarchs of Greyhawk
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Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:21 am  
[LG] Oligarchs of Greyhawk

Hi again, everyone.

Living Greyhawk has been busy this week. The RPGA posted an article by Sam Wiess called Power Groups: The Directing Oligarchs of Greyhawk. It includes a few details using 3.5 rules. Take a look at it and compare it to the list of oligarchs from Greyhawk: The Adventure Begins.

Don (Greyson)
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Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:39 pm  

I can't find it. Got a link?

Edit: Found it!
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Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:25 pm  

Awesome idea for an article. I'm going to have to congratulate Sam on that one. As frequent forum readers know I've played with the makeup of the Oligarchy as well. Sam did a good job keeping the Thieves' bloc intact naturally. Gavin is the best choice for constable though advanced in age. Speaking of elderly oligarchs, it's a shame Sir Anton died off and wasn't replaced. Though that would require creating a new NPC from scratch which I'm sure they were trying to avoid for canon issues. The Guild of Lawyers is still a big deal and in my own campaign they would have a seat. Patriarch Jerome I am in agreement on. His retirement was forecast in TaB and given the flux in the number of oligarchs there was no guarantee he'd be replaced. It is surprising Matriarch Sarana of Pelor has never been elected, given her temple is one of the biggest in the city. Maybe she hates politics. I would have liked to see at least one more new face on the oligarchy but maybe the subtractions are more the story with this article. Good stuff!
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Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:06 am  

I posted this on April 13th, on the 4th edition thread entitled: Pelor....God of Agriculture?, Bahamut....typical human deity thread, while "discussing" the Oligarchy with my good friend Ragr. It is the 4th post on page 3.

http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2817&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=50

Quote:
And yes I know all of the Oligarchs currently in place within the city of Greyhawk. Mind you, I didn't say it was on any kind of personal level, but yes, I do know them. For the sake of political correctness, I will state that certain opinons of various individuals I am in accordant with while others are should we say less properly guided and motivated in their decisions concerning our fair city. Heck, if you think you can do a better job then go for it. I have it on good authority that one such member will soon be stepping down. No I can't tell you which one either. Yes I know which one as well as why they will be stepping down!


I bring it to the attention of all that this prophecy was made 4 days prior to the official announcement on the RPGA website, April 18th and I have no such association of any kind with the RPGA. For all those who have doubted my prophetic abilities, behold, the power of Istus and the greatness she has bestowed upon her humble Prophet!

Don't forget to leave a worthy donation at the door! Happy
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Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:55 am  

Just curious, does anyone know the origin of the naming of Tigran Gellner? Who was the TSR creator of this character and where did he or she get the name?

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Sat Apr 19, 2008 3:57 pm  

I could be wrong about this, but I think Tigran was created by Sargent and Rose in the City of Greyhawk boxed set.
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Sat Apr 19, 2008 4:00 pm  

Well done sam Wink

It feels right; natural and not forced. Is it just me or does it strike anyone else as odd that as thieves Nergof and Org are (LN).

Btw; it still seems strange that in Laissez-faire Greyhawk there isn't more chaotic oligarchs.
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Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:52 pm  

Eileen: LOL, can't argue with the power of Istus. *drops a coin in the box*

Crag: Being thieves turned politicians they probably underwent an alignment change once they got in charge. Having to stick together in order to keep power would pretty much prevent any chaotic action from either of them as the city is concerned.
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Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:36 pm  

Plus, being too self-serving(chaotic) among such a powerful group would probably lead to an "accidental" death sooner than later.

Very good write-up overall. I'd make a few minor editorial tweaks, but that is all.
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Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:26 am  

I have to disagree; politicians not self-serving Laughing

Chaotic doesn't mean you can't function within a group or society; it just refers to what is deemed an acceptable means to achieve the common goal.

A long but excellent analysis of alignment
http://www.frontiernet.net/~jamesstarlight/AlignmentPaper.html

According to this argument Nerof Gasgal should be LN (CN)

His main goal is to smoothly operate the city; he has no moral qualms about his methods as long as it benefits Greyhawk but he isn't entirely uncaring. (N)

However his personal feelings can result in petty vengences that overide his judgement. (C) - personally a little vindictiveness would humanize Gasgal IMO. You are correct if his motives are to preserve the government and maintain internal guild standards; it is lawful behavior. (L)

Personally it has always rubbed me wrong the GH guild is so professional; no mavericks or reckless charismatic young bloods tired of playing it safe.

I stand corrected; Embarassed


Last edited by Crag on Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:49 am  

Although almost no one mortal is going to be perfectly lawful or chaotic, or perfectly good or evil, I believe Nerof is without question a lawful neutral character. What's more, he has always been lawful neutral, since the beginning of his career.

Nerof's "moral qualms" are evidenced by his position on the good-evil axis. The law-chaos axis shows whether he prefers an orderly (systematic, with due deference to precedent, tradition, and lawful authority) means to attain his goals (as well as what his goals are).

Nerof was, as a beginning thief, "known for his meticulous planning of every last detail of operations. He believed in leaving absolutely nothing to chance, and would pore over plans and models of a targeted building until he could draw the entire floor plan to memory. His thoroughness and attention to detail endeared him to his superiors and peers, although he became the terror of apprentices and lower level thieves who were assigned to work under him. He did not tolerate slip-ups or errors." (Greyhawk Adventures, page 35)

As mayor, "His attention to detail makes it difficult for anyone not in his favor to cheat or oppress citizens. He is demanding of his staff, but does not spare himself, routinely working twelve-hour days. He takes bribes freely, but his theory is to "let both sides pay bribes, then judge the case on its merits." (Greyhawk Adventures, page 35) Even with this last, he is simply showing deference to precedent and tradition (graft and bribery have been institutions in Greyhawk City forever), but judging the case as orderly and systematically as he can.

Gasgal's "petty vengeances" seem limited to unleashing the power of the thieves and assassins guilds against one family that shunned him publicly. Taking the rest of his personality into consideration, it is certain that he did this as meticulously and thoughtfully as anything else. He was lawfully able to do this thanks to his power and influence, to the alliances he had made and the codes of the guilds in question. He was not punished or inconvenienced for doing so in any way, and the act accomplished his objective: to make sure that the old nobility of Greyhawk City was deferential to him, at least in public. Claiming that his personal feelings "overrode his judgment" is thus no more true than it would be to say that when a lawful good paladin writes a poem for his loved one he's allowing his personal feelings to override his judgment. In both cases, their goals result from their personal feelings rather than some lofty "for the betterment of the group" loyalty, but in neither case are they using chaotic means to achieve them. In fact, his actions were guided by his judgment, and very successfully.

This applies to many other facets of Nerof's personality: when he collects luxuries and ensures that his secretaries are personally attractive, he does so because of his personal feelings, but he does not do so chaotically. If he decides to blackmail troublemakers instead of using force, he does so meticulously and because he believes that unwisely applying force to a situation could result in chaos. Remember that law refers to an approach or philosophy, not some Platonic set of universal laws. It's illegal to question priests of Hextor in the North Kingdom (probably), but this doesn't mean doing so is chaotic. Nerof Gasgal has a set of laws that he lives by which are perfectly in keeping with the way Greyhawk City works and has worked for centuries. He is a lawful person.

What's more, I would argue that the Thieves Guild of Greyhawk is lawful neutral in general. They are, after all, a guild and not a mere gang, and their traditions are at least as ancient and defined as any other guild in the city. They are part of Greyhawk's government, and it is thus in their interest to ensure that the government remains stable and functioning. It is not to their advantage to take risks (as a group) or to work to change the way Greyhawk works. While the laws they live by are not the laws that Cuthbertines live by, and they are not the laws that are officially recorded in the City of Greyhawk's scrolls of civic law, they are, nonetheless, laws.

To quote the page that Crag linked to: "Order and organization are of paramount importance to the characters of this alignment. They believe in a strong, well-ordered government, whether that government is a tyranny or benevolent democracy. The benefits of organization and regimentation outweigh any moral questions raised by their actions. An inquisitor determined to ferret out traitors at any cost or a soldier who never questions his orders are good examples of lawful neutral behavior."

This describes the attitude of Nerof Gasgal and the Greyhawk Thieves Guild exactly. The thieves believe in strong, well-ordered government, both in their own guild and in the city in general. Neither is a benevolent democracy, but neither is a tyranny. They are well-organized and regimented, although not very moral on the good-evil axis. Thieves Guild members surely include inquisitors who ferret out traitors in the ranks, or who hunt down freelance thieves who practice their craft outside Guild control. Just as surely, some of the Guild thieves are, in their mindset, soldiers who simply do as their superiors instruct.

Again, to quote the site that Crag cited: " Lawful people do not, however, hold that legal Laws are good, right, and proper simply because they are laws. If such were the case, a law decreeing that everyone was a slave subjugated to serve some chaotic being would have to be obeyed. But in the course of human events, when such laws do not value society over the individual, such laws may be broken, and rightly so, even by lawful characters. This is why LAWS should never to confused with LAWFUL. They may have similarities, but they are not the same." Nerof does what he must to ensure a stable society, sacrificing his own personal comfort in many ways to do so (as evidenced by his long hours), regardless of what laws the city keeps on its mouldering books (including Zagig Yragerne's insane rants), ignoring them when necessary for the greater order.

As for Org Nenshen, he is less orderly than his friend. "His name became a byword for reckless confidence and skill," according to Greyhawk Adventures (page 38). But "As Guildmaster, Org's goals are to cooperate with the Directing Oligarchy to keep Greyhawk safe. Greyhawk is the only home he has ever known, and he realizes that if the city were to fall, his livelihood would be jeopardized." To say nothing of what would happen if a less tolerant government were to take power. Org is less orderly than Nerof, but given his goals and the orderly nature of the Thieves Guild in general, I think it's perfectly fair to place him closer to the lawful end of the spectrum than the chaotic end.

The basic definition of chaotic neutral, according to Crag's citation, is "the notion that the individual is the basic, most important unit. Chaotics believe that an individual's rights must nearly always surpass the rights of society. They hold the needs of the individual, or the one, is more important than the needs of the many." This is one thing that Nerof, Org, and the Thieves Guild emphatically reject. They believe in the city or guild first and the individual second. They believe it is permissible for an individual to satisfy their own whims if they can do so lawfully, but the stability of the group comes first. The Guild makes its living in a way that Cuthbertines would find distasteful, but worshippers of Trithereon would reject them just as much: after all, permitting a predatory class to exist oppresses the individual (the victim) for the benefit of the group (the guild). These aren't lone brigands who look to rob for the thrill of it or merely for their personal gain. These are lifetime guild members who pay their dues and work to advance their profession and their fellow guildmembers, and to protect their city and its government. They don't seek to undermine a system designed to protect individuals against them, but to support a system designed to allow them to do their work. By this definition, then, Org is as orderly as Nerof is, for all that he is less meticulous and exacting in his means.
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Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:56 pm  

What he said. Happy You will note I said "too self serving". Sure, polititicans will be self-serving, but if one is too self-serving, particulalry among a group like the Oligarchs, then they probably won't be around very long bfore becoming the victim of an unfortunate accident. Nerof and his clique do not suffer those who may become potential threats to their power(as is actually stated in the article).
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Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:39 am  

Actually, I am wondering what made them decide upon the last name of Tigran Gellner; in particular, if they picked it ourt of a hat, or if there was perhaps a specific reason for the name.

I ask because that happens to be my last name and it is not a common name. When that name initially was released in the City of Greyhawk boxed set I used to joke that TSR went through their mailing lists for naming ideas (I had a Dragon magazine subscription at the time). I had not thought about it until this Greyhawk Oligarchs post and thought I would see if anyone in the community had any idea as to the real history behind the name generation.
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Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:57 am  

No idea about the Gellner name, sorry.

Being the stat addict that i am, I´m wondering about the skills some of the oligarchs are noted with in the article. Namely:
Quote:
Nerof Gasgal (male human rogue 10/expert 5, AL LN, Bluff +35)

Glodreddi Bakkanin (male dwarf rogue 12, AL LE, Profession (tax man) +22)

Dernan Nathane (male human swashbuckler 2/rogue 10, AL N, knowledge [local – Core] +24)

Org Nenshen (male human rogue 18, AL LN, Bluff +35)

Jerome Kasinkaia (male human cleric 20 [Rao], AL LG, Diplomacy +45)


Nerof´s Bluff modifier is quite a bit high for a CL 15 NPC. Probably a typo, i´m guessing it should be Bluff +25 (18 ranks +4cha +3SF(Bluff))

Glodreddi´s skill is reachable if he has an 18 Wis. (15 ranks +3 SF +4wis)

Dernan´s knowledge [local – Core] +24 is also very high. (15 ranks +3 Skill Focus +4 Int +2 ???)

Org Nenshen´s bluff is also way high. (+21 ranks +3 SF Bluff +2 persuasive +X cha) So does he really have a 28 CHA? I hope not. Probably a magical item.

Jerome Kasinkaia´s Diplomacy +45 is epic to say the least. The best i can get is 34 +cha (23 ranks +3 SF(Diplomacy) +6 synergy (from Bluff, Sense Motive, Knowledge:nobility) +2 negotiator +Xcha) So does he really have a 32 CHA in LGH or am I missing something?

Anybody go the 2E stats of these guys available?[/b]
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Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:27 pm  
A Few Stats

Thanael wrote:
No idea about the Gellner name, sorry... Anybody go the 2E stats of these guys available?

I've never seen or heard the name Gellner, either.

I found the following, though, in Greyhawk: The Adventure Begins. I don't know if it sheds any light on the subject or helps, but here it is.

Nerof (LN): T12; Dex 17, Wis 18, Cha 16
Glodreddi (LE): T10; Dex 18, Con 15, Int 16, Wis 17, Cha 5
Dernan (N): F2/T9; Str 15, Dex 16, Int 17, Cha 16
Org (LN): T18; Dex 18, Int 16, Cha 16
Jerome (LG): C20 (Rao); Dex 16, Wis 18, Cha 18

I imagine there was some unseen advancement and transformation for these guys since Living Greyhawk's inception.
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Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:13 pm  

I'd call it fudge-ification.

There's too much of that in 3.x for my taste, so I limit it. You know there is something wrong when even a high level character has as many bonuses to their skill as they have skill levels in the first place. That leads to stupid things like taking 1 skill level in something, just because you know you have a +17 bonus from items and feats, class features, etc. That's not a function of the article but rather of the rules, so I ignore those bits of it.
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Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:12 am  
Re: A Few Stats

Greyson wrote:
Thanael wrote:
No idea about the Gellner name, sorry... Anybody go the 2E stats of these guys available?

I've never seen or heard the name Gellner, either.

I found the following, though, in Greyhawk: The Adventure Begins. I don't know if it sheds any light on the subject or helps, but here it is.

Nerof (LN): T12; Dex 17, Wis 18, Cha 16
Glodreddi (LE): T10; Dex 18, Con 15, Int 16, Wis 17, Cha 5
Dernan (N): F2/T9; Str 15, Dex 16, Int 17, Cha 16
Org (LN): T18; Dex 18, Int 16, Cha 16
Jerome (LG): C20 (Rao); Dex 16, Wis 18, Cha 18

I imagine there was some unseen advancement and transformation for these guys since Living Greyhawk's inception.


Thanks Greyson. Well some of them did advance in levels some not. Usually i find LG´s stats quite reasonable.

Are there any magical items listed for them that might be of note?
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Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:58 pm  
Sam Did His Homework

Greyson wrote:
I've never seen or heard the name Gellner, either.

I found Tirgan Gellner in Greyhawk: Folks, Fueds and Factions on page 9. At the time of FF&F he was commander of the city's Cairn Hills forces. It offers the following stats for him:

Gellner (LN): F8; Str 18/63, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 15.
bastard sword +1, +3 versus evil humanoids, chain mail +2, ring of regeneration, winged boots, composite long bow +1 and quiver of arrows +1.

Gasgal was listed as having a longsword +2 in FF&F. He has a pretty thorough write-up in Greyhawk Adventures (page 35-36), but nothing that affects his ability scores. But, magic items are the great (un)equalizer in 3rd Edition. So, I imagine they are properly equipped by the Circle.
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Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:27 pm  

I have this bad picture in my head of Tigran Gellner flying over the Cairn Hills with little winged boots, firing his bow at bandits. Not how I ever used him.
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Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:02 pm  

...and all those hit by his magic arrows fall in luv. Awww... Laughing
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Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:56 am  

If I remember correctly the Living Greyhawk guidelines do not adjust ability scores due to aging. I always felt the aging effects on PC and NPC heroes and NPC personalities was a critical roleplaying component. How old is Jerome, over 90 and he still has a 16 dexterity? I hope I age that well.

--Telemachus
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