I think that's taking too many liberties with the established map though. Even if it's not the best spot for a "GH-Japan," all of the published works (admittedly, not very many and scant on the details) put it there. The dreaded Dragon Annual map called it by a Japanese name and the brief description of "A densely populated island nation of fishermen, warriors, and poets" while not describing things that are exclusive to a Japanese culture, is a pretty concise description of Japan nonetheless. I find it easier to work with what we've been given than to rearrange everything, especially if it's to make room for something that's not supposed to be there anyway.
I don't doubt for a moment that Skip Williams had Japan in mind when he penned his description of "Nippon." I'm certain that everyone who ever read that article immediately thought, "Oh, this is Greyhawk's Japan," the moment they saw that entry.
I would, however, distinguish between authorial intent, no matter how clear, and the "published works." As far as what's actually been published, this is all we've actually been given:
Name. Heward has heard "from the recollections of some of the 'old guard'" that the archipelago southeast of Zindia is known as Nippon, though he says "I can't vouchsafe the place names; doubtless the locals have their own names for many of the areas." In the "Nippon" entry he specifically says "Unsure of the place's real name."
In Dragon #277, Philip Athens briefly mentions a land called Ryuujin, which first developed a magical dimensional accelerator known as "the Chute" and a weapon called the dimensional rifle some time prior to 1946 CY. Ryuujin holds a monopoly on the "source vortex" that empowers dimensional accelerators. The land also produces a model of aircraft known as the Fukanou fast attack fighter. It's presumed by fans that Ryuujin is Nippon, though I think this association falls short of "canon."
Location. This is an archipelago southeast of "Zindia" and northeast of a land called the "Nippon Dominion."
Climate. The climate is almost certainly tropical, barring an extreme magical event; the archipelago is located just south of Oerth's equator. The hot equatorial currents will travel in an arc (south of the equator on our world, these are generally counterclockwise) from the southern coast of the Amedio to the Zindian coast (which I believe is pretty much spot on the equator) south along the "Nippon Dominion's" coast and then north again into the Pearl Sea, surrounding the archipelago in a circle of hot tropical waters. This feedback loop would render the "Sea of Nippon" and "Sea of the Dragon King" among the hottest waters on Oerth, second only to the Celestial Sea to the west, which will have an almost identical climate. The "Nippon Dominion" peninsula will likely protect the islands from the cold waters of the Ocean of Storms, in which cold currents from Polaria will travel north along the west coast of the unnamed southern continent and wash against southern Hepmonaland and the southern side of the Nippon Dominion's peninsula, then brush against the Gulf of Ra and southern Erypt before moving west along the Barbarian Seameast and returning to Polaria again. There should be an antarctic circumpolar current flowing around Polaria itself, but again "Nippon" is protected from this.
Culture. "Nippon" is densely populated and characterized by fishermen, warriors, and poets. That it would have fishermen is obvious from the fact that it's an archipelago; that it would have warriors is apparent from the fact that it has recently conquered one side of the peninsula to the south. That it would have poets is not obvious, and marks them as a literate, artistic race.
Being an island nation surrounded by seas similar to the Azure Sea in size, "Nippon" would logically have a culture fairly independent from any of the mainland nations. However, its closest influences are "Zindia" and the lands currently known as the "Nippon Dominion," and it would logically share some cultural elements with both. Of the Nippon Domion we know nothing except that it has recently been conquered and that it is almost certainly a hot, equatorial land like Nippon itself. The northern parts, at least, would likely share some cultural similarities with Zindia.
Nippon is an aggressive military power, having recently conquered a large swath of territory. It's not clear whether this was true in the past; it may or may not have ruled similar empires before, but its current empire is new. Heward's letter is addressed to Mordenkainen, so it must have been written sometime after the 560s CY, but as it is based on the memories of the "old guard" (presumably this refers to other former members of the Company of Seven, and possibly the gods Celestian and Fharlanghn) it may well be considerably out of date. The adventures of the Company of Seven as such spanned approximately from 305 (when they encountered Lyzandred) to 321 CY (when Zagig left the group to begin the construction of Castle Greyhawk), but if the Company had traveled to Nippon during that period, Heward would have been there as well. Therefore, the "recollections" probably proceded that date range. The Nipponese Empire therefore was probably conquered some time between 321 CY and 585 CY.
Because the "Nippon Dominion" is separated from the Celestial Imperium/Shaofeng by a number of mountain ranges, my assumption would be that it is not particularly Shaofengese in culture; more likely it would take its cultural cues from the other cultures bordering the Sea of Nippon and the Sea of the Dragon King. The most obvious real-world equivalent of the peninsula would be Indochina, which shares the Bay of Bengal and the Indian Ocean with India on one side, but shares the China Sea with China on the other.
The specific cultures I'd compare the Nippon Dominion to, then, would be Bangladesh, Myanmar, and Thailand. On the opposite side of the peninsula, if the "Yarth" cultures from Sagard the Barbarian are not placed there, would be Oerth's equivalents of Vietnam and Cambodia.
Based on its surrounding cultures, climate, and geography, I would guess "Nippon" would be most similar to Sumatra and Java in our world, and perhaps the "Nippon Dominion" would be similar to the historical Majapahit empire, which certainly had its share of poets, warriors, and fishermen and fits the late-medieval time period the Flanaess is set in. This need not be true, of course, particularly in a fantasy world - there are doubtless nonhuman and extraplanar influences that must be taken into account, for one thing, and just because the Dominion is in the right place to be considered an Indochina parallel.
Oerth's cultures in general, of course, are not straight copies of Earth cultures. Perrenland is something like Switzerland, but it's much further north, with a heavy Flan and Oeridian influence, bordering a land (Ket) more similar to Turkey than Austria, France, or Germany, and bordering lands of Mongol-like nomads and elves and orcs and other exotic peoples. In some ways it's more of a Tolkienesque Russia. People argue about whether the Great Kingdom is more like the Holy Roman Empire or pre-Czarist Russia. Most of the Flanaess is similarly ambiguous, and "Nippon" should be no different. It may well have features in common with Japan, Java, Sumatra, Cuba, Haiti, the Dominican Republic - really, whatever the DM needs for the adventure at hand. There may be step-pyramids buried in the northern jungles and fleets of atakebune warships in the ports. The truth should be more complex than simply stating, "this is a D&D version of Japan" or "this is a D&D version of the Majapahit empire." It's an extension of the Greyhawk campaign on islands deep to the south in hot equatorial seas and it can draw from whatever influences the DM feels are appropriate.
Racial background. Oerth has fictitious races, of course. The Flan are based physically on Africans, but culturally they share qualities borrowed from native American peoples and the Celts. The Baklunish are a golden or sallow-skinned people who may resemble the Mongols, Turks, or Persians culturally. It's deliberately difficult to say what real-world European groups the Suloise or Oeridians most resemble. None of them, except for the Olmans and perhaps the Rhennee, have any perfect Earthly equivalent, and even the Olmans were given other influences in Savage Tide.
The primary inhabitants of Zindia are likely of the same racial stock as the people found in the southwestern Sea of Dust. Greyhawk Adventures described them as "a tall, slender, curly-haired folk with blue-black skin and slanted eyes" and said they came "from further south." I would assume this race extends into the Nippon Dominion, rather than making the people there copies of Southeast Asians. On the other side of the mountains, the people are probably more closely related to the natives of Shaofeng (who I see as mostly Baklunish), with significantly darker skin. In Nippon itself I could see a case for making them relatives of the Olmans, though there is likely some admixture with the neighboring Zindians and Dominioners. They could also be entirely of the Zindian race. I would avoid making straight copies of the Ainu or Yamato peoples.
The nonhuman races of "Nippon" could be anything, though there is little evidence of Tolkienesque races like elves or dwarves this far south. The closest elves would be the wild elves placed in the Amedio Jungle by the "Savage Tide" campaign path, though they were placed there only because it was awkward for the designers to explain what dakons were to a core 3rd edition audience. Per The Scarlet Brotherhood, dakons probably would have been a better choice for the role elves played in that campaign, something Erik Mona admitted. Still, there's nothing stopping a DM from incorporating elves into the setting if they really want them there, and assuming they migrated from the Amedio seems reasonable enough.
James Wyatt's Mahasarpa campaign, which I consider to be a good basis for Greyhawk's Zindia region (and one that has nothing to do with Tal Meta's Sunela setting), includes as its available races humans, hengeyokai (monkey or mongoose only), spirit folk (river or sea only), vanaras (a race of humanoid monkeys), and rishi (equivalent to aasimar).
In a Java analogue, I think vanaras, rakshasas, and nagas would be essential.
A Japan analogue would likely also include korobokuru dwarves, though if these are placed in "Nippon" then it becomes an open question whether they would be also appropriate in Shaofeng - and if so, where did they originate and when and why did they migrate?
Working with what we've been given. I believe the above information is the sum of "what we've been given" on the region in official published sources. It can be surmised that Skip Williams' authorial intent was that "Nippon" was a pseudo-Japan, but I don't think this can be considered something that we can say it is based solely on the published canon. After all, Erik Mona's intent was probably that the archipelago should be identified with the Hydranian Islands, and Mona is a far larger influence over contemporary Greyhawk canon than Williams is. But I wouldn't consider authorial intent to be canon.
What we've been given, canonically, is a tropical archipelago whose closest neighbors include what is likely an Indian analogue and what would logically be an Indochina analogue. The archipelago's name is unknown and we only know it has fishermen, warriors, and poets. We can certainly work with what we've been given without deciding that this archipelago must be, or is even likely to be, a Greyhawk version of Japan.
Of course, it's fairly useless for two people to go back and forth endlessly saying "It can't be Japan because it's in the wrong place as far as climate and surrounding cultures" and "But it has to be Japan because that's what Skip Williams intended." Everyone should rationalize Oerth as they please to fit their own preferences, of course; the world is hardly a realistic historical setting.
Differences from Japan. The canonical "Nippon" differs from Earth's Japan greatly in its climate (equatorial rather than temperate) and surrounding cultures (it is likely, though not certain, that it was influenced by nations more like India and western Indochina than China and Korea).
Of course, Japan was not much of an imperial power until the late 19th century, which makes comparisons between Greyhawk's "Nippon" and medieval Japan difficult.
Possible similarities to Japan. That still leaves a lot of possible Japanese cultural elements that could easily be spliced in: samurai, ninja, kensai, oni, bakemono, ogre magi (the "Japanese ogres" of the 1st edition Monster Manual), korobokuru dwarves, kappa, and of course Japanese-inspired dragons could all fit in nicely without needing much contact with Shaofeng to explain them. But again, for the sake of verisimilitude it's important to come up with the histories of some of these groups and races, giving some of them kingdoms and migrations of their own and determining where they started and how they ended up scattered throughout the land.
Oriental Adventures is a hodgepodge of East Asian ideas for the same reason that the Flanaess is a hodgepodge of European ideas. Just as there is no part of the Flanaess that is specifically "Greece" - the exclusive home of centaurs, lamiae, minotaurs, harpies, sirens, medusae, and so on - there doesn't need to be a part of Oerik that is specifically "Japan" in the sense that all the Japanese-influenced ideas are found specifically there rather than throughout central Oerik. That leaves us with figuring out, however, just what makes Greyhawk's "Nippon" different.
My own preference is to give it a blended fantasy culture that fits organically into the cultures around it but which is impossible to peg too firmly as a parallel of something on Earth. Using multiple cultures as inspiration helps in this. In that way, just as the Touv aren't exactly Africans, the Baklunish aren't exactly Persians, the Olmans aren't entirely Aztecs, the Rhennee aren't exactly Roma, and the Oeridians aren't exactly Germans, the land will fit better into the Greyhawk campaign.
Well, they'd have access. It'd still be out of their way, unless the other side of the peninsula was Shaofeng too.
But I think making the entire region Shaofeng cuts down unacceptably on the region's diversity. Even if the peninsula is part of the Shaofeng empire, it will have its own local culture; compare how many nations and cultures are in the Flanaess. The mountain ranges carve that side of the peninsula into three distinct chunks and firmly separate it from the opposite half. My guess is if the peninsula isn't based on the Sagard the Barbarian nations, it'd be more like Indochina whether Shaofeng claims it or not.
And Nippon/Ryuujin would still be much closer to Zindia than one would expect from a straight Japan analog. Even with Shaofeng dominating most of the continent, I'd still expect many Zindian cultural elements - religious practices, food, art and architecture - to make their way to the archipelago.
For the culture of the other side of the peninsula to have a stronger influence on the islands than the rest of the area, you'd have to be really fixated on the idea that Oerth needs a Japan analog and that analog needs to be in this archipelago in particular, and I'm just not convinced. I think the totality of the canon sources, not just the semi-canon names given to the archipelago, present a more complex picture. Basing an equatorial empire on a nation that was neither equatorial nor, in medieval times, an empire is a bit awkward. Not an empire in the sense that it didn't have extensive conquered territories beyond the motherland, I mean; obviously it had an emperor.
But like I said, it should be more complicated than saying the islands are or aren't Greyhawk's Japan, anyway. They should be a unique creation, a fantasy empire with multiple influences. In that respect, I think its odd location is a good thing. This way, even if you do say "I'm going to base these islands mainly on Japan," you have to stop and ask "In what respects? And in what respects are they not alike?"
I'm not advocating a monolithic Shaofeng culture. I'm trying to explain the presence of the ethnic group beyond Shaofeng proper. Having the peninsula be culturally reminiscent of Indochina doesn't conflict with this. I suppose it'd be less confusing if there was an official name for Shaofeng's ethnic group. I assume that the "Nippon Dominion" areas probably have that ethnic group as well, and that area is reminiscent of Korea.
Personally, and speaking only of names, I find Zindia and Nippon about as Greyhawk appropriate as Zaustralia or Zitaly and Cymru or Eire. I have made reference to Nihon (which isn't much better) and Zhindia (which isn't better at all) in my own work, but....
I haven't had much time to follow the thread, but if the Nippon/Ryuujin culture was a mix of Japanese (which seems to be the fixation) and Thai (which is locationally more appropriate, and underutilized), that would be much more interesting than another Japanese clone.
I assume that the "Nippon Dominion" areas probably have that ethnic group as well, and that area is reminiscent of Korea.
Well, the geography and climate of the area don't make me think of Korea (even less than the geography and climate of "Ryuujin" makes me think of Japan), but I guess whatever works for you.
I would sum up my perspective as not so much "those islands can't be based on Japan" as "If you decide to base them on Japan, it should be a Japan with a very different culture than our Japan." Some things could be the same, but the presence of Zindia as a trading partner, a history of domination by rakshasas, a maritime empire, a tropical climate, and magic will make some things very different.
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I suppose it'd be less confusing if there was an official name for Shaofeng's ethnic group
I think that no matter how Japanese you want the islands to be, the people there should belong to a unique fantasy race rather than trying to make them look specifically "Asian" (particularly since Oerth's Asians are Baklunish). Give them different hair, darker skin, distinct eyes. The Touvs have straight hair and blue eyes, easily distinguishing them from Earth's Africans. The Ryuujinese should be similar. I'd give them the same (or even deeper) blue-black skin tone as the Zindians, with perhaps some Olman admixture, though really they could look like anything. You can give them samurai and haiku without making them racially similar to the Shaofengese.
Personally, and speaking only of names, I find Zindia and Nippon about as Greyhawk appropriate as Zaustralia or Zitaly and Cymru or Eire. I have made reference to Nihon (which isn't much better) and Zhindia (which isn't better at all) in my own work, but....
Oerth Journal #26 uses "Ryuujin" instead of "Nippon," "Geitsakuru Dominion" instead of "Nippon Dominion," and "Sunela Coast" instead of "Zindia."
The name Ryuujin is at least semi-canonical, since it's based on a series of off-hand references in the far-future "Greyhawk 2000" article from Dragon #277. The others are fan-created.
I would use those names instead, but I'm being stubborn and using the Dragon Annual #1 names not because I think they're any good, but because I'm sticking strictly with what we know from canon for rhetorical purposes (or I've deluded myself into thinking I am). I'm not really a canon stickler, but if I throw out canon entirely then I can just be like "the area is populated by dog-headed men and purple-skinned cyclopes" and there's nothing to argue about.
Er, obviously the part about the islands being dominated by rakshasas in the past isn't canon. Sorry, I slipped.
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I haven't had much time to follow the thread, but if the Nippon/Ryuujin culture was a mix of Japanese (which seems to be the fixation) and Thai (which is locationally more appropriate, and underutilized), that would be much more interesting than another Japanese clone.
I agree. I suggested basing part of the "Nippon Dominion" on Thailand and basing "Nippon" on Java and Sumatra, but a mix is good too.
I assume that the "Nippon Dominion" areas probably have that ethnic group as well, and that area is reminiscent of Korea.
Well, the geography and climate of the area don't make me think of Korea (even less than the geography and climate of "Ryuujin" makes me think of Japan), but I guess whatever works for you.
I would sum up my perspective as not so much "those islands can't be based on Japan" as "If you decide to base them on Japan, it should be a Japan with a very different culture than our Japan." Some things could be the same, but the presence of Zindia as a trading partner, a history of domination by rakshasas, a maritime empire, a tropical climate, and magic will make some things very different.
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I suppose it'd be less confusing if there was an official name for Shaofeng's ethnic group
I think that no matter how Japanese you want the islands to be, the people there should belong to a unique fantasy race rather than trying to make them look specifically "Asian" (particularly since Oerth's Asians are Baklunish). Give them different hair, darker skin, distinct eyes. The Touvs have straight hair and blue eyes, easily distinguishing them from Earth's Africans. The Ryuujinese should be similar. I'd give them the same (or even deeper) blue-black skin tone as the Zindians, with perhaps some Olman admixture, though really they could look like anything. You can give them samurai and haiku without making them racially similar to the Shaofengese.
Oh, I don't disagree with all of that necessarily. But I do think there should be a common ancestry with Shaofeng, even if there are differences by mixing in other ethnic groups.
For what it's worth, I imagine that the "fading lands" concept from Roger Moore's "India - Greyhawk Style" could apply to most of central Oerik, explaining the presence of spirits and various other creatures not found in the Flanaess. For example, Shaofeng's oriental dragons could be the solution to the fading lands in that land, perhaps they came up with the type of magic wu-jen use, and that magic is how they seal the fading lands in Shaofeng--explaining the presence of different magic and why wu-jen aren't found beyond their borders.
I greatly dislike the Heward map of Oerth.... The super continent thing bugs me to no end, and the coastlines for most of it are rather uninteresting.
Fortunately, the accompanying text offers that the map and its labels are a complete crapshoot. The map is begging to be modified to something a bit more sensible...
Firstly, Western Oerik needs to extend only to around where I placed the blue line. The lands west of that need to be detached, and shrunk quite a bit so that each country within the continent isn't the size of the Great Kingdom was at its apex. Doing this could potentially leave room for other land masses (like Aquaria). Making it a lot less blobby would help, too. I'm also inclined to transpose "Nippon" and "Dragon Isle"--not that it's really necessary, but making it closer to Shaofeng makes more sense.
These are simple fixes that don't completely invalidate the Heward map (and are completely in keeping with the map's accompanying text that insinuates that its accuracy is far from absolute), but make it for more palatable.
I greatly dislike the Heward map of Oerth.... The super continent thing bugs me to no end, and the coastlines for most of it are rather uninteresting.
Fortunately, the accompanying text offers that the map and its labels are a complete crapshoot. The map is begging to be modified to something a bit more sensible...
Firstly, Western Oerik needs to extend only to around where I placed the blue line. The lands west of that need to be detached, and shrunk quite a bit so that each country within the continent isn't the size of the Great Kingdom was at its apex. Doing this could potentially leave room for other land masses (like Aquaria). Making it a lot less blobby would help, too. I'm also inclined to transpose "Nippon" and "Dragon Isle"--not that it's really necessary, but making it closer to Shaofeng makes more sense.
These are simple fixes that don't completely invalidate the Heward map (and are completely in keeping with the map's accompanying text that insinuates that its accuracy is far from absolute), but make it for more palatable.
Apologies to Icarus (whose map I mangled).
That's not really the point of this thread, though. Neither Rasgon nor I are discussing radically changing established geography to suit our own desires. We all have our issues with that map, but it's official now. Like it or not, it's what we've been stuck with for over a decade now. Like Rasgon said, sure we could just throw everything we don't like out but then there's no real discussion. So we're just trying to make it work--make do with what we've been given.
That's not really the point of this thread, though. Neither Rasgon nor I are discussing radically changing established geography to suit our own desires. We all have our issues with that map, but it's official now. Like it or not, it's what we've been stuck with for over a decade now. Like Rasgon said, sure we could just throw everything we don't like out but then there's no real discussion. So we're just trying to make it work--make do with what we've been given.
Yes, the map is "official"... But, because of how the map was presented--from an in-character point of view (from Heward to Mordenkainen) with the admission of questionable accuracy--that only means that map exists in-game--much like the Demonomicon of Iggwilv, not that it is a de facto representation of the Oerth from an out-of-game perspective.
So, given that the map is "officially" of of questionable accuracy, why adhere to it slavishly when "officially" there's no need to, and the majority of GH fans don't like the thing?
That's not really the point of this thread, though. Neither Rasgon nor I are discussing radically changing established geography to suit our own desires. We all have our issues with that map, but it's official now. Like it or not, it's what we've been stuck with for over a decade now. Like Rasgon said, sure we could just throw everything we don't like out but then there's no real discussion. So we're just trying to make it work--make do with what we've been given.
Yes, the map is "official"... But, because of how the map was presented--from an in-character point of view (from Heward to Mordenkainen) with the admission of questionable accuracy--that only means that map exists in-game--much like the Demonomicon of Iggwilv, not that it is a de facto representation of the Oerth from an out-of-game perspective.
So, given that the map is "officially" of of questionable accuracy, why adhere to it slavishly when "officially" there's no need to, and the majority of GH fans don't like the thing?
If it were just Dragon Annual #1, you'd be correct. But it isn't just that one source. It's been printed in the D&D Gazetteer, Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, and Chainmail. Multiple products over the years have used the geography of that map, if not the names placed on it, and all of those other books have used it out-of-character.
I don't begrudge you for not liking it. It's basically a giant box with triangles on it. But after 15+ years, it is what it is at this point. Nobody would blame you for redesigning it for your own campaign. More power to you if you do that. But going down that road isn't much of a discussion--it's your campaign, do what you want. The point of this thread is to try and make lemonade out of that lemon of a map.
No apologies necessary at all, Azzy ... I'm glad to see that it's being used, and in a "canon" discussion", to boot! I didn't realize that there were people out there that actually look at the thing. I've been saying for a couple of years now that I want to develop it into something a bit more finished than that. I know I've sent out versions of it every now and again, but, I think that is the first time that I have ever seen it used in discussion.
As far as the Nippon Dominion goes, I always saw it as analogous to the Japanese Empire in the late 1930's. Nippon is in an expansionist phase, and has taken a big chunk out of the Celestial Imperium (or Shaofeng, if you prefer). One can easily justify a lack of outside (Zindian) cultural influence in Nippon by postulating the island kingdom had been quite isolationist prior to this event.
The original map from DA #1 doesn't include borders, of course, and the way the names are situated, the Celestial Imperium could well extend to that peninsula. And now Nippon has the portion that's east of the mountains.
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