Canonfire!

Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:13 pm Charm Person vs. Charm Monster

Got into a debate about when a humanoid is considered a "monster" instead a "person" for purposes of which spell is needed.

I thought all humanoids of less than 4+1 HD fell under the domain of the "Charm Person" spell (goblins, hobgoblins, gnolls, bugbears, etc.) whereas anything with 4+1 HD and over (ogres, trolls, giants, etc.) were considered to fall under the dominion of the "Charm Monster" category.

The debate centered around if my elven spell-caster could use a "Charm Person" spell on a bugbear or not.

-Lanthorn

Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:51 pm

I recently realized I had made a mistake about his spell in my campaign.

If I remember correctly (I am away from my books right now) the spell charm person must be man sized or smaller so a bugbear would not count since it is size large.

I will have to look it up again to give you a better answer but I am pretty sure the spell is by size and not hit dice.

Fri May 01, 2015 4:43 pm

I seem to recall a Dragon magazine article that gave a list of creatures that qualified as a "person" for purposes of the spell. If mymemory serves, ogres were in that list.
I'm fairly sure it was is the 1st edition era, but 1st & 2nd editions are close enough it should work fine.
Now, to remember what issue number that was, or hopefully someone else will find the answer and post before I do.

Sat May 02, 2015 8:54 am

The description states in affects man-sized or smaller humanoid(oid) targets, yet gnolls, a large creature, are included on that list. Contradictory statement indeed. Hence, my confusion, and wondering if it shouldn't be a combination of size AND Hit Die that is the determining factor.

-Lanthorn

Sat May 02, 2015 11:30 am

Here's the expanded Charm Person list from EGG in Dragon #90:

Aarakocra (F)
Atomie (II)
Azer (II)
Booka (F)
Brownie (M)
Buckawn (II)
Bullywug (F)
Dark Creeper (F)
Dark Stalker (F)
Derro (II)
Dryad (M)
Duergar (II)
Dwarf(M)
Elf(M)
Firenewt (F)
Flind (F)
Forlarren (F)
Frost Man (F)
Gibberling (F)
Githyanki (F)
Githzerai (F)
Gnoll (M)
Grig (II)
Gnome (M)
Goblin (M)
Grimlock (F)
Halfling (M)
Half-elf
Half-orc
Hobgoblin (M)
Jermlaine (F)
Kenku (F)
Killmoulis (F)
Kobold (M)
Korred (II)
Lizard King (F)
Lizard Man (M)
Meazel (F)
Men (M)
Mite (F)
Mongrelman (II)
Nereid (II)
Nixie (M)
Norker (F)
Ogrillon (F)
Orc (M)
Pech (II)
Pixie (M)
Quaggoth (F)
Quickling (II)
Qullan (F)
Shade (II)
Sirine (II)
Snyad (F)
Spriggan, size S (II)
Sprite (M)
Svirfneblin (F)
Swanmay (II)
Taer (II)
Tasloi (II)
Troglodyte (M)
Xvart (F)
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Sat May 02, 2015 2:35 pm

Well thank you for posting the list Grodog.
Apparently I was mistaken thinking ogres were in the list of "persons". I thought they were the top of the size spectrum.
I see that ogrillons are in the list. So, should half ogres be included as well?
As Lanthorn pointed out, gnolls are large sized, and yet are in the list. Ogrillons are large as well, so clearly there are some exceptions to the "man sized or smaller" rule.

Sun May 03, 2015 12:43 am

I would include the half-ogre, it being partially human.
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Sun May 03, 2015 8:36 am

Grodog, MUCH appreciated for the exhaustive list.

Yes, odd that bugbears are missing given, as I've said, that gnolls are included. Too, it is odd that the lizard king, a beast FAR more deadly (more HD, and of Large size) than a lizard man is also included.

-Lanthorn