Well, it's one step closer to completion! I believe I have typed up my last deity (#205 ), and now look to you, my good fellows, to confirm that I haven't missed anyone. Here are my primary criteria:
There must be an AD&D® reference to the deity granting spells to worshipers in the WORLD OF GREYHAWK® setting.
Every AD&D® race that includes divine spell casters must be represented by a deity (although not necessarily one of the same racial aspect).
There must be an AD&D® reference to the deity granting spells to worshipers in the WORLD OF GREYHAWK® setting.
Every AD&D® race that includes divine spell casters must be represented by a deity (although not necessarily one of the same racial aspect).
So, you're saying either criterion is sufficient to get a deity mentioned in your database? A god can either be mentioned in some canonical Greyhawk source or be necessary to explain divine spellcasters?
Is it important that the deity first appeared under the aegis of AD&D or can D&D 3rd edition deities be included?
There must be an AD&D® reference to the deity granting spells to worshipers in the WORLD OF GREYHAWK® setting.
Every AD&D® race that includes divine spell casters must be represented by a deity (although not necessarily one of the same racial aspect).
So, you're saying either criterion is sufficient to get a deity mentioned in your database? A god can either be mentioned in some canonical Greyhawk source or be necessary to explain divine spellcasters?
Is it important that the deity first appeared under the aegis of AD&D or can D&D 3rd edition deities be included?
Yes, either criterion is sufficient for inclusion. It is important that the deity first appeared in AD&D®, as opposed to deities who are new to the current version of the game (except, of course, in case #2, above). My "priority of canon" list is as follows:
Some missing Hero Gods include Daern, Johydee, Keoghtom are Murlynd.
I know there has been a tendency in the LGG era to elevate every known personage to hero-deity status, but Daern, Heward, Johydee, Keoghtom, Murlynd, Nolzur, Quall, and Tuerny are quasi-deities, not hero-deities, as per Gary Gygax in the Glossography. (See also "priority of canon" list, above.) As I see the distinction, quasi-deities are beyond the ken of mere mortals, but are not quite divine either. Hero-deities are a step above that and are capable of granting spells to their followers. Only Kelanen was described as a hero-deity initially. In addition, I have added the following hero-deities to the list:
Azor'alq — a late-1E, early-2E development
Dorgha Torgu — Gary's fallen Baklunish god
Kuroth — the original DMG reference (under Kuroth's Quill) seems consistent with his current stature as a hero-deity
Xuanaux — hero-deity of the flinds (necessary per criterion #2, above)
Xuanaux — hero-deity of the flinds (necessary per criterion #2, above)
hmmm I think it would be better, or at least make more sense to just have flind worship Yeenoghu along with thier gnoll cousins....
That would be great, except that flinds are Lawful Evil, and Yeenoghu is Chaotic Evil. I included a small number of "renegade" flinds as Yeenoghu-worshipers, but the vast majority of the race needed a Lawful patron.
Some missing Hero Gods include Daern, Johydee, Keoghtom are Murlynd.
I know there has been a tendency in the LGG era to elevate every known personage to hero-deity status, but Daern, Heward, Johydee, Keoghtom, Murlynd, Nolzur, Quall, and Tuerny are quasi-deities, not hero-deities, as per Gary Gygax in the Glossography.
Both Murlynd and Kelanen have their priesthoods fully written up ala the Faiths & Avatars style in Slavers, with that Sourcebook/Adventure indicating that Murlynd had been granting spells to priests for just over a year IIRC...
Kwint
Yes, either criterion is sufficient for inclusion. It is important that the deity first appeared in AD&D®, as opposed to deities who are new to the current version of the game (except, of course, in case #2, above).
In that case, Sixin, god of xill, comes most readily to mind (Complete Divine). I don't think the xill have any other patron.
I'm guessing you didn't include the beholder Great Mother or Ilsensine because in your view neither race has divine spellcasters (although both appear in the Living Greyhawk Deities document). Presumedly the dragon deities are omitted for the same reason, or because Bahamut and Tiamat fill the void. What about Sardior, patron of neutral (gemstone) dragons?
Diirinka is mentioned in From the Ashes, even if derro don't have divine spellcasters. Or doesn't AD&D 2nd edition count as AD&D?
Are published (as opposed to unpublished stuff the regional triads came up with) Living Greyhawk sources (like the Living Greyhawk Journal) above or below other 3e sources in the hierarchy? I would rank them alongside published AD&D just by virtue of being explicitly Greyhawk, but it's your book.
Hm, it seems like Meriadar, god of mongrelmen, ought to be included, unless you're taking the stance that either they have no clerics or an existing god like Fharlanghn covers them.
Are you omitting 3e deities created for 3e races?
Where do novels (Quag Keep, Brother Wolf) fit in your hierarchy of canon? What about personages like the king of shadows from the Gord novels?
And I assume deities that appear only in WG7 are inelligible (Genericus Brant, Su Shi goddess of raw fish), despite technically being a published AD&D source.
Both Murlynd and Kelanen have their priesthoods fully written up ala the Faiths & Avatars style in Slavers, with that Sourcebook/Adventure indicating that Murlynd had been granting spells to priests for just over a year IIRC...
Kwint
Once again, the priority of canon rules in favor of Murlynd being a "mere" quasi-deity, despite any more recent developments. I would be interested in the Kelanen info from Slavers, however, if anyone would care to share it.
In that case, Sixin, god of xill, comes most readily to mind (Complete Divine). I don't think the xill have any other patron.
I am only marginally familiar with the xill as a late-2E creation. Where do they appear in 1E/2E Greyhawk canon?
rasgon wrote:
I'm guessing you didn't include the beholder Great Mother or Ilsensine because in your view neither race has divine spellcasters (although both appear in the Living Greyhawk Deities document).
It's not a question of "my view" so much as it's a question of whether the races have divine spell casters in the AD&D® rules (the system for which the Deitybase was intended).
rasgon wrote:
Presumedly the dragon deities are omitted for the same reason, or because Bahamut and Tiamat fill the void. What about Sardior, patron of neutral (gemstone) dragons?
Dragons do not have divine spell casters in AD&D® (though I know they do in AD&D® 2E), therefore they do not meet my above criteria. (Mind you, I'm not necessarily denying the existence of Io and the others; I simply don't need to detail them as they have no clerics.) Bahamut and Tiamat were included for two reasons: 1) they appear in the original Deities & Demigods, and 2) they are honorary members of Len Lakofka's Suel pantheon.
rasgon wrote:
Diirinka is mentioned in From the Ashes, even if derro don't have divine spellcasters. Or doesn't AD&D 2nd edition count as AD&D?
Again, derro have no clerics, so any deities they may or may not worship are beyond the scope of this project.
rasgon wrote:
Are published (as opposed to unpublished stuff the regional triads came up with) Living Greyhawk sources (like the Living Greyhawk Journal) above or below other 3e sources in the hierarchy? I would rank them alongside published AD&D just by virtue of being explicitly Greyhawk, but it's your book.
I suppose if I were to break things down further, I'd rank Living Greyhawk™ material higher than, say, D&D® 3.x core rule books, but I still give precedence to AD&D®. By way of example, I haven't included deities like Charmalaine, Doresain, or Mouqul, as I am unaware of any AD&D® references to them — therefore, they do not exist in my campaign.
rasgon wrote:
Hm, it seems like Meriadar, god of mongrelmen, ought to be included, unless you're taking the stance that either they have no clerics or an existing god like Fharlanghn covers them.
Again, mongrelmen have no divine spell casters in AD&D®.
rasgon wrote:
Are you omitting 3e deities created for 3e races?
Yup
rasgon wrote:
Where do novels (Quag Keep, Brother Wolf) fit in your hierarchy of canon? What about personages like the king of shadows from the Gord novels?
Novels don't count, with the exception of the Gord series (and deities from those stories still have to meet the "divine spell caster" requirement).
rasgon wrote:
And I assume deities that appear only in WG7 are inelligible (Genericus Brant, Su Shi goddess of raw fish), despite technically being a published AD&D source.
Um, yeah.... I didn't count Roger Moore's orcish deity Mispigie, either.
I am only marginally familiar with the xill as a late-2E creation. Where do they appear in 1E/2E Greyhawk canon?
They were in the original Fiend Folio, I believe, as well as the 2nd edition Fiend Folio Appendix.
I'm not aware of any Greyhawk source that specifically mentions them, but as ethereal creatures they could appear anywhere.
Quote:
By way of example, I haven't included deities like Charmalaine, Doresain, or Mouqul, as I am unaware of any AD&D® references to them — therefore, they do not exist in my campaign.
Doresain was mentioned in the original Monster Manual (but not by name, and not as a deity).
And no Mouqol just because he was unfortunate enough to be created on the wrong side of the edition divide? Poor guy.
The entry for Yeenoghu references the King of the Ghouls, which is the basis for Doresain. That entry doesn't really specify that Doresain is a god; he could simply be a supernatural entity of lesser stature (which is my inclination).
IMO your Greyhawk God List Standard appears quite arbitrary by including some later canon God additons but not others mentioned by your own canon standards.
After reading your posts IMO this board is more like Your Campaign God List than the Canon Greyhawk Pantheon which is fine.
Including listing Gods for races that had No Mention in earlier canon editions and disregarding other Godly canon additions to the pantheon just doesn't make sense to me which is fine it's your campaign.
Regarding Quasi-Deities and Hero Gods with all the additions they are two names for the same thing both had the 4th level spell granting limit unless they were prime based which was then 5th.
For some reason that 5th/6th spell casting limit for Demi Gods like Iuz and Vecna did not seem to apply (Vecna followers had talismans while imprisoned in Ravenloft).
Regarding canon smaller lesser known faiths concerning most Quasi/Hero Gods, Demi Gods and Lesser Gods didn't get a lot of attention in earlier editions.
TSR/Wizards has never published a complete and comprehensive God listing in a single source book to my knowledge. As time progressed the pantheons on most campaign worlds expanded and more Gods were introuduced into the campaign. Over the next few years various writers for the Ebberon campaign will introduce more and more Gods to the pantheons.
Consider On Hallowed Ground which only listed Intermediate and Greater Gods for Oerth in 1996 while listing a scattering of Lesser, Intermediate and Greater Gods for Toril.
It seems peculiar that you are using some deities from Monster Mythology while denying that others in there that give divine spellcasters to other races "count."
Mongrelmen get divine casters in Monster Mytholg, and AD&D product. Further, even though I strenously reject the FtA assertion that all Monster Mythology deities for non-human races are official Greyhawk deities, the reference exists, and since mongrelmen are in Greyhawk, it means they have divine spellcasters.
It seems peculiar that you are using some deities from Monster Mythology while denying that others in there that give divine spellcasters to other races "count."
Mongrelmen get divine casters in Monster Mytholg, and AD&D product. Further, even though I strenously reject the FtA assertion that all Monster Mythology deities for non-human races are official Greyhawk deities, the reference exists, and since mongrelmen are in Greyhawk, it means they have divine spellcasters.
I am using the AD&D® rule set, not AD&D® 2nd Edition (although I do reference some 2E materials where needed). So, for example, I know from AD&D® that nymphs can cast druidic spells, but I have no information on what deity actually grants those spells. Therefore I look in 2E Monster Mythology and find Verenestra.
Duergar exist in AD&D®, and have divine spell casters. I wasn't going to include Laduguer initially, as I felt the AD&D® deity Abbathor could fill that role. However, since Return to White Plume Mountain (a Greyhawk® product) makes reference to a priest of Laduguer — and since this does not conflict with any previous material — I included him. Urds did not exist in AD&D®, but they appear in an AD&D® 2E Greyhawk® product, so I included them and their patron (as their presence does not conflict with anything that came earlier). Mongrelmen, however, do not have divine spell casters in AD&D®, so I do not recognize changes made to them in later editions.
I am using the AD&D® rule set, not AD&D® 2nd Edition (although I do reference some 2E materials where needed). So, for example, I know from AD&D® that nymphs can cast druidic spells, but I have no information on what deity actually grants those spells. Therefore I look in 2E Monster Mythology and find Verenestra.
So what? There is nothing about the deities and spellcaster ability in Monster Mythology that is incompatible with the 1st ed rules.
And druids don't need deities, so nyphs don't need Verenestra.
If you want to make an arbitrary list go ahead. But it isn't really a Greyhawk list.
So what? There is nothing about the deities and spellcaster ability in Monster Mythology that is incompatible with the 1st ed rules.
And druids don't need deities, so nyphs don't need Verenestra.
If you want to make an arbitrary list go ahead. But it isn't really a Greyhawk list.
You know what? It's my list, for my AD&D® Greyhawk® campaign. I posted here because I thought I'd share it with others who may have a use for it. If it's not to your liking, then please feel free to ignore this thread.
I suppose if I were to break things down further, I'd rank Living Greyhawk™ material higher than, say, D&D® 3.x core rule books, but I still give precedence to AD&D®. By way of example, I haven't included deities like Charmalaine, Doresain, or Moquol, as I am unaware of any AD&D® references to them — therefore, they do not exist in my campaign.
I'm lobbying for Baklunish gods, as can be expected.
According to criteria #2 if a race is in 1E Greyhawk it must have a god. Well technically the Baklunish are a race and while several Baklunish gods are represented, there are far more of the other subraces in comparison. Moquol's situation I believe is the same as your handling for the Nymph. When there was no god for the Nymphs you went to a later edition. Furthermore your priority does go up to 3.x sources. If it wasn't a priority at all it should be left off the list, no? Also its a commonly held belief (not sure of the quote but it might be Gygax's era) that not all the Baklunish gods were detailed at the time of 1E's writing. That's why you get gods like Dorgha. Anyhoo, vote MOQUOL!
The '83 and simliar early sources are incomplete quite clearly. Filling them out a bit is a good idea. The main question in that regards are whether to add entirely new gods (such as Mouquol) or cross culturalize existing gods (such as making Mouquol a localized version of Zilchus).
If you use no discrimination at all about additions, you end up with the LGG list. If you use some, you'll end up cutting at an arbitrary point that won't satisfy sections of the fanbase (with objectors on both sides of the cut point, no doubt).
According to criteria #2 if a race is in 1E Greyhawk it must have a god. Well technically the Baklunish are a race and while several Baklunish gods are represented, there are far more of the other subraces in comparison. Moquol's situation I believe is the same as your handling for the Nymph. When there was no god for the Nymphs you went to a later edition. Furthermore your priority does go up to 3.x sources. If it wasn't a priority at all it should be left off the list, no? Also its a commonly held belief (not sure of the quote but it might be Gygax's era) that not all the Baklunish gods were detailed at the time of 1E's writing. That's why you get gods like Dorgha. Anyhoo, vote MOQUOL!
Sorry, but the Baklunish have seven deities already, whereas the nymphs had none. Also, Dorgha's pedigree is purer than Mouqol's. It's a very short trip from Mouqol to Heironeous & Hextor's "third brother" — and that's a trip I don't want to take.
If you use no discrimination at all about additions, you end up with the LGG list. If you use some, you'll end up cutting at an arbitrary point that won't satisfy sections of the fanbase (with objectors on both sides of the cut point, no doubt).
Good point. A list that included every possible god would be never-ending, as the justification for including (for example) the new gods in the Book of Vile Darkness and Book of Exalted Deeds really isn't any worse than Monster Mythology's; some of the former gods even have explicit ties to gods of Oerth, while many of Monster Mythology's gods do not.
If we're to avoid an eternally expanding list, some arbitrary criterion is necessary. I wouldn't draw the lines at exactly the same place as DM Prata did, or where Sam did, but even though I tend toward inclusiveness I still have to draw the line somewhere.
Well I draw the line after non-player character, non-humanoid races and at mysterious little known races like the Xill or Nymphs personally. Most players will be standard PC races and such I drink in all the human subrace deities I can get. While I think its cool that someone designed a deity for the Nymphs or Xill they shouldn't carry more weight than human deities that can have an impact on the setting. Anyhoo I can't wait to see this project completed, the pictures alone are what I'm itching to pour over.
I thought I created a thread on minor, obscure deities a while ago, but I can't find it.
BUMP!
Len Lakofka's The Kroten Campaign, p. 11 (Hobgoblin deities):
Kesgar (Lord of Tunneling and Mining);
Peglibiyet (Weapon and Armor Craftmaster);
Zebbelub (Goddess of Birth).
No further details. I'd make them either demi-gods or hero deities. Suggestions?
Personally, those are just a big ol’ meh sandwich to me. They’re name drops from Len’s home campaign 30 years after he had any active involvement with TSR. I don’t know that Len was even aware of Roger Moore’s Nomog-Geaya. Maybe if they’d been developed, I’d consider them. (For that matter, I don’t think I want to include Gorkask, either.)
...Personally, those are just a big ol’ meh sandwich to me...
-I get it, but I figure that they're better than nothing, and they fill a gap in the canon. They certainly make sense. Again, to avoid any disruption, I'd make them demi-gods or hero-deities.
DMPrata wrote:
...Maybe if they’d been developed, I’d consider them...
-No time like the present? I'd like to see all the non-orc pantheons developed as well as the orcs.
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I believe I have typed up my last deity (#205 
), and now look to you, my good fellows, to confirm that I haven't missed anyone. Here are my primary criteria:
I stand corrected. How could I forget the poor xill? Still, they don't have divine spell casters (at least not in AD&D
