Why is it that the cultures of the Flanness are discussed in relationships of race. I realize that his was how it was orignially done by the early authors, but to me it makes little sense. The years that have passed since the migrations have seperated the groups so that, in many cases I would think that they have more in common with their neighbors than some vague ancestor. Certainly there are isolated pockets of racial purity, but for the most part, the people would be blended. Particluarly in war torn areas. Once the language breaks down as a common thread, history would seem to indicate that the seperate identity quickly blends in to the broader culture.
This could/would not be true necessarily for the upper classes, as they may hold themselves appart. But, in a recent article on the literature (which I really liked BTW) it was broken down by racial group. This seemed to me to be an almost artificial break down, though the most common grouping in GH.
I would think that Keoland would have a strong literary history, but it would be distinct from other Suel or Oerdian literature from distant lands. A reader from the Court of Rauxes (or whereever now) would hardly know it, and i cannot imagine they would say "hey this is by that great oerdian writer xxxx in Niole Dra!" If it is written in Common, a trade language, then it most certainly would be near race neutral, or it would not pass far and wide.
This is not to say that there are not racial/cultural groups in the Flanness. Just that the groups that migrated after the Twin Cataclysms are not reasably the ones that exist.
Think of it this way, at about the same distance in the past the Franks broke up Charlemagne's empire and gave us the French (the Franks) and the Germans. They were both spawned of the same germanic invaders, but look at how distinct they have become.
Why is it that the cultures of the Flanness are discussed in relationships of race. I realize that his was how it was orignially done by the early authors, but to me it makes little sense. . . .
But, in a recent article on the literature (which I really liked BTW) it was broken down by racial group. This seemed to me to be an almost artificial break down, though the most common grouping in GH.
I would think that Keoland would have a strong literary history, but it would be distinct from other Suel or Oerdian literature from distant lands. A reader from the Court of Rauxes (or whereever now) would hardly know it, and i cannot imagine they would say "hey this is by that great oerdian writer xxxx in Niole Dra!" . . .
Thoughts?
When speaking of human subroups, "race" is not an inappropriate term, I think. It becomes less so when we toss in demi-humans and humanoids. Now, it might be preferable to speak of human "cultures," for clarity if for no other reason. But, as you note, it is sort of a tradition to speak in terms of human "races."
I think you are also correct that, even if there were initially distinct human "racial" groups, those would for the most part have become less distinct with the passage of time. This is something of a controversial issue, however, because it touches on the whole idea of syncretism in religion and the loss of the human subgroup "identities" first set out by EGG, to at least some degree. However much a logical case may be made for unique cultures arising out of earlier more purely "racial" groupings, it will certainly draw differing views.
However, the real kicker, IMO, is the complexity of the cultures that could/should evolve and the work/controversey it would take to determine/explain these cultures. Speaking of "races" is far easier.
In the introduction to Literature in the Flanaess, I started at the beginning, surveying the big four human subgroups (Flan, Suel, Baklunish, Oeridian) in "racial" terms. In later installments, there is a gradual coalescence; regional literatures develop and finally the beginnings of a literature of the Flanaess, an international literature, may be seen. There are 17 entires written that form a "skeleton" for later entires (one entry has been posted, 5 more are in the que to this point). If read in the order I am submitting them, you can literally watch the evolution of literature in the Flanaess develop. Of course, this is not the immediate point as matters are not presented in chronological order. You have to connect the dots, as it were, then.
I have been thinking of presenting a strict chronological "progression" when the first 17 entries are up, but each entry is now topical, not chronological. I did this on purpose, recognizing that a strict chronology would fail to convey the breadth of literary expression and would also likely foster an unwanted focus on what happened when instead of a focus on the books. I wanted the focus to be on the books (which begin to be presented with the third entry).
In addition to the 17 "basic" entries, I have drafts of another dozen or so entries that look at more specific literatures, some of these are regional and speak to your point about cultural development beyond the big four "racial" descriptions. While it is not my intent to use the Greyhawk Bibliographica series as a spring board to the defination of national or regional cultures, there is something of that tucked in there.
This same impulse will be seen in another series I am working on with my wife that will probably debut this summer. The initial focus is on "racial" touchstones but once beyond initial discussion there is substantial intermixing and the formation of unique "cultural" expressions. Again, however, the focus not in the development of cultures but on the topic being developed (I am keeping the topic quiet for now ). The exploration of culture, as distinct from "race," is incidental.
I think your point is a good one and that the incidental may become inevitable. I forget who it was but someone posted here about a nearly "immutable" or unchanging Flanaess that would not see "progress." I competely disagree but that doesn't mean an industrial revolution is around the corner. The development of unique cultures from the purer "racial" groupings of the Migrations is one way to "develop" the Flanaess in a way that is not necessarily "revolutionary" or disruptive of pseudo-medieval fantasy elements. IMC, this is a constant subtheme but never the focus of anything in particular. Matters evolve slowly and naturally, usually as I need something "different" after years of steady campaigning.
Back to Literature in the Flanaess, I love books (love Call of Cthulthu in that way) in a campaign and it is just a short hop from books to literature. A lot of adventures IMC involve books in some way; I have more than one PC IMC who "collects" books, and not just the MUs and bards. The book descriptions in Literature in the Flanaess were first written as a DM survial strategy; my players kept fussing for details. With a consistent "literary tradition," it was easier for me to handle them as DM. I'm glad you enjoyed the first entry!
When speaking of human subroups, "race" is not an inappropriate term, I think. It becomes less so when we toss in demi-humans and humanoids. Now, it might be preferable to speak of human "cultures," for clarity if for no other reason. But, as you note, it is sort of a tradition to speak in terms of human "races."
I think you are also correct that, even if there were initially distinct human "racial" groups, those would for the most part have become less distinct with the passage of time. This is something of a controversial issue, however, because it touches on the whole idea of syncretism in religion and the loss of the human subgroup "identities" first set out by EGG, to at least some degree. However much a logical case may be made for unique cultures arising out of earlier more purely "racial" groupings, it will certainly draw differing views.
They probably have gotten less distinct, with new styles of writing developing for any particular country/culture you can mention. But I also think that different types of storytelling can exist. Just look at Greek myth vs. North American aboriginal myth, or the storytelling techniques First Nations people use even today-very different from the writing styles many Europeans use. I'm pretty sure an African-American literary style will have its own shades that make it stand out from a Hispanic-American one, or that Indians will have different literary interests than the Chinese.
I think the mistake lies in making "race" the only factor being considered. Race plays a part, sure. But so too do country, region, culture, personal experiences...all that stuff. I know up here in Canada, Prairie writers are going to have a different angle on some matters as opposed to writers from Quebec, even as they share some distinctive "Canadian" literary traits. It probably comes with other things like this-most people have traits that connect them at different levels, whether they be intellectual, spiritual, ethnic, and so forth. I suppose you could call it "partial melding"; most authors can share common views on certain matters, and others relfect their culture, their race, their personal experiences, or what have you. None of this is cut-and-dried; all we can really do is note the tendencies, I think.
However, the real kicker, IMO, is the complexity of the cultures that could/should evolve and the work/controversey it would take to determine/explain these cultures. Speaking of "races" is far easier.
That's pretty true.
This same impulse will be seen in another series I am working on with my wife that will probably debut this summer. The initial focus is on "racial" touchstones but once beyond initial discussion there is substantial intermixing and the formation of unique "cultural" expressions. Again, however, the focus not in the development of cultures but on the topic being developed (I am keeping the topic quiet for now ). The exploration of culture, as distinct from "race," is incidental.
Sounds great!
I think your point is a good one and that the incidental may become inevitable. I forget who it was but someone posted here about a nearly "immutable" or unchanging Flanaess that would not see "progress." I competely disagree but that doesn't mean an industrial revolution is around the corner. The development of unique cultures from the purer "racial" groupings of the Migrations is one way to "develop" the Flanaess in a way that is not necessarily "revolutionary" or disruptive of pseudo-medieval fantasy elements. IMC, this is a constant subtheme but never the focus of anything in particular. Matters evolve slowly and naturally, usually as I need something "different" after years of steady campaigning.
Glenn
That was probably me, given my paranoia about Greyhawk industrializing and the demihuman races disappearing, a la Hyperboria and Middle-Earth. The sickening feeling I get at Greyhawk developing new technology certainly doesn't extend to Greyhawk modernizing socially or culturally. Man will never develop the airplane, will never develop the submarine, never develop the television set, and so forth, but that doesn't mean that slavery might eventually be seen as abhorrent by every "good" country in the Flanaess, or that women and demihumans actually share power equally with human males at the highest levels of society. _________________ <div align="left">Going to war without Keoland is like going to war without a pipe organ. They both make a lot of noise and they're both a lot of dead weight, so what's the point in taking them along? </div>
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises
). The exploration of culture, as distinct from "race," is incidental.
The book descriptions in Literature in the Flanaess were first written as a DM survial strategy; my players kept fussing for details. With a consistent "literary tradition," it was easier for me to handle them as DM. I'm glad you enjoyed the first entry! 