The past few articles I have been working on have attempted to resolve some issues with the mysterious Horned Society.
According to the City of Greyhawk boxed set, the Society actually invaded and conquered the Shield Lands before being forced to withdraw. Then the Greyhawk Wars begins and the coup at the Blood-Moon Festival decimates the Hierarchs and the Horned Lands become a part of the Empire of Iuz.
Now I liked the Horned Society. Having them so quickly defeated was always a source of ire to me. So I attempted to provide an explanation - that some of the most powerful beings of the Society were not in Molag when the coup hit. Links to the discussions and the articles are here:
Furthermore, I attempted to give the Horned Society their due as philosophers of evil in my Wyrms of the Flanaess: Verithmirax article just posted.
In reading the references to the Society, you get a real mixed bag. "They were devil worshippers". "No, they were Nerull's servants and trafficked in demodands".
A couple good articles giving two slightly different views on the Society are on the old Codex of Greyhawk site (under the geography tab) here:
One sticking point was how the Society fell and how are they now organized. I suggest that the Society had in place a contingency plan for just such a coup. Perhaps even, more of the Hierarchs escaped. After all, the Horned Society was not foolish. Once Iuz had returned from his prison - it was only a matter of time before he would betray them. Perhaps the Hierarchs staged their own deaths in order to have the freedom of action allowable to a secret society rather then an open nation.
I agree. I think the Horned Society got royally screwed, and deserves better than what it got. I personally like the idea of the Horned Society being the big, bad empire in the north, while Iuz is the one whose organization has its tentacles spread across the Flanaess. That's a case of breaking canon, yes, but when canon contradicts itself on the Horned Society, I don't feel much oblgiation to follow it.
What I would recommend, then, is that the Horned Society is quietly subverting many of the disorganized areas in damaged realms like Nyrond, Geoff, Sterich or Bone March. Any of these lands could be ripe for the Society to re-establish itself as a major force in the Flanaess, either operating openly (in a realm like Bone March or conquered Nyrondal territory) or through a puppet government (in Geoff or Sterich).
How it works depends on you as DM, and whether the Society could even be an ally of the governments involved-would the Society work with the humanoid chiefs of Bone March, competing with Grenell and Northern Aerdy for their interest? Would it actually help to destroy the giants occupying Geoff, as a means to establish a power base through which to extend their reach into the Sheldomar? Furyondy might not be very pleased at Nyrond getting advice from the Society, but then Nyrond has never been friends with either the Shield Lands or Furyondy. Besides, the military and economic weight the Society could lend would be a useful aid against any invasions or attacks by the Duchy of Urnst or the Aerdy kingdoms, or attempts by these to strangle Nyrond's economy with their own economic might.
Besides, the contacts the Horned Society has in slave trading could go a long way towards re-establishing the Nyrond economy, finding new markets for Aerdi who were enslaved as prisoners of war by the Nyrondese during the Greyhawk Wars. Nyrond does trade in slaves...but only human Aerdi. The fundamental rights of the kingdom are specifically written to exclude the Aerdi.
And then, of course, there's the idea of reversing the Horned Society and Iuz's roles and making the Society a major player in central Flanaess politics as the empire that conquered the Shield Lands and Iuz, and is allied with the Bandit Kingdoms. PCs can travel there and do business openly; although the Horned Ones are oppressive towards their subjects, they are not sadistic or vicious as the forces of Iuz are. They are more "Smart Evil" than "Crazy Evil".
How the other states of the Nyr Dyv react towards the new empire is anyone's guess; Nyrond, Greyhawk and Dyvers are all probably licking their lips at the thought of the rich profits that might be made off the slave trade with the empire, the County of Urnst is on high alert, the Duchy of Urnst is probably thinking of how it could use an alliance with the new state in its eternal feuds with Greyhawk or Nyrond; Greyhawk and Dyvers are probably thinking of how to use the Horned Empire to destroy the rival city; Furyondy is obviously furious at the games its rivals on the lake are playing, but can at least take some satisfaction in seeing the Shield Lands destroyed...I've explored these concepts more in my Living Greyhawk Gazetteer Addendum articles.
(PS:Yes, I am suggesting that the Duchy of Urnst would invade Nyrond or cripple its economy, if it got the chance. This is Nyrond we're talking about...payback is a b*tch, and so are the Urnstmen...) _________________ <div align="left">Going to war without Keoland is like going to war without a pipe organ. They both make a lot of noise and they're both a lot of dead weight, so what's the point in taking them along? </div>
The Horned Society was a totalitarian control obsessed nation (LE).
It is noted that the one hierarch to survive for sure Dahlvier first act was to establish a new power base rather than a network.
Whatever remains of the horned society after the coup which was by all accounts largely successful is probably fragmented and scattered as various leaders are pursuing there own vision of the horned society doctrine, some no doubt even in conflict with each others plans.
As for the the mixed bag of religion the main reason for the switch to Nerull was the desire to "de-demonize" the 2nd but it can easily be explained: The Horned Society were in favor of any power that shared their (LE) ethos, which increased there power and heightened fear among the populace strengthening their hold on power.
We know the Heirarchs pulled back from the shield lands so they could reinforce their border with Iuz fearful of a humanoid invasion however when the attack came it was a surgical strike not an invasion. FtA and ItE gives the impression "the coup" took place with unprecendented outer planar aid and the heirarchs were confident in there own outer planar Baatezu allies and Nerull both of which failed even to give a warning (why?)
1) They both could have simply missed the plot.
2) Baatezu had to choose where to place their attention and resources (chose GK).
3) Nerull was angered at the timid and defensive decision to retreat from the Shield Lands - loss of potential victims saw the "coup" as punishment.
4) Nerull and Baatezu wanted a Flanaess wide war for their own desires (death and power) and were prepared to sacrifice the society to see it happen.
5) All of the above.
PS: CSL ideas: while creative I can't see either urnst state attacking or hurting the economy of Nyrond since both urnst states financially prop up Nyrond they want it to recover and if it does collapse the real victors would be Ahlissa and The Pale, neither one a neighbor to desire over a weak and indebted Nyrond.
Dungeon 105 discusses the Horned Society in the WarDuke Critical Threat. It has WarDuke as one of thier modern leaders, I think. I don't remember all of the substance of the article, but it does talk about the
destruction' and some of the Society's MOs and goals.
Edit: Oops, sorry about the av size, I'll resize it tonight. _________________ <strong><em>Show me a hero and I'll write you a tragedy.</em></strong> F. Scott Fitzgerald and/or Harvey Danger, take your pick.
PS: CSL ideas: while creative I can't see either urnst state attacking or hurting the economy of Nyrond since both urnst states financially prop up Nyrond they want it to recover and if it does collapse the real victors would be Ahlissa and The Pale, neither one a neighbor to desire over a weak and indebted Nyrond.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. In real-life political history, how often has passion and emotion led statesmen to do foolish and stupid things when reason might have led them to re-consider their actions? The Urnstmen might be motivated with the same sort of thinking that the Germans and the French had in World War I, or the Austrians and the Serbians; both sides were straining at the leash to tear the other apart, and the resulting war was a colossal waste of men and life.
And besides, Urnst's dealings with Nyrond have never been cordial enough that Ahlissa might not be a more congenial neighbor. I imagine that Urnst could have been jealous of Nyrond's power for a long time, not to mention bitter about being beaten with the heavy stick of Nyrondal diplomacy, and nursing old grudges from the Nyrondal occupation of the County...
My point is, two "good" countries will not always act that way, especially in international politics. Political need almost always trumps alignment considerations. Seeing Nyrond's debt as the perfect chain to strangle the arrogant kingdom with might simply be too much for many influential figures in the Duchy to resist. Duke Karll might not want to do it, but what about the noble council...? _________________ <div align="left">Going to war without Keoland is like going to war without a pipe organ. They both make a lot of noise and they're both a lot of dead weight, so what's the point in taking them along? </div>
My point is, two "good" countries will not always act that way, especially in international politics. Political need almost always trumps alignment considerations. Seeing Nyrond's debt as the perfect chain to strangle the arrogant kingdom with might simply be too much for many influential figures in the Duchy to resist. Duke Karll might not want to do it, but what about the noble council...?
Fair point.
However, if the Urnsts took the military option, Nyrond would stamp the Urnsts flat with weight of numbers alone (assuming we're talking 591+ here and not 585).
The Urnsians could try siezing Hammensend, Curtullan (they'd probbaly succeed) and make a drive towards Midmeadow, Mowbrenn or Woodwych. But to do that, you'd have to assume the County and the Duchy were in concordance (a rare enough event - and the County hardy wants to see a successful militant party in power in the court in Leukish). Then the County would have to take enough forces off its northern river border to make the land grab and hold it (Zeech of Redhand, Renfus of Stoink and Iuz's viceroys in the Bandit lands would hardly refuse such a cordial invitation to sack the rich towns of Urnst). Meanwhile, the Duchy's only practical line of attack is through Hammensend (try getting a medieval army through a forest - even one where the woodsfolk aren't shooting at you), which makes it easy to head off (likely at Woodwych).
In Nyrond, meanwhile, Lynwerd can appeal to common patriotism to repulse the invaders. Lesser Nyrond never meant farming off the western provinces to those treacherous Urnsians. Urnsian merchants can also forget ever collecting on all those loans they gave the Nyrondese crown during and after the Greyhawk Wars ("Happy days!" says Lynwerd's Exchequer; "Ruined!" cry a lot of Urnsian merchant houses and no few nobles I imagine). Assuming Lynwerd can mobilise his armies (and cover his other borders), he can bring superior numbers to bear on the Urnsians, which with the new generation of fine Nyrondese generals like Myarikin, is bad news for the Swan and the Bear, IMO.
Even if the Urnsians did win somehow on the field of battle - they'd still lose. Triggering the collapse of Nyrond into petty states will turn a previously secure border into a long, probably hostile frontier (especially now that that frontier isn't anchored on the Franz anymore). That'd leave the County almost completely surrounded by hostile territories. Try selling that prospect to nobles in Radigast, Brotton or Trigol.
Even assuming the dust settles after a decade or two of civil war - the big winner is Ahlissa, which can now concentrate on the NK without worrying about a united Nyrond kicking in the back door and whose merchants will no doubt profit from all the former trans Nyrond trade switching to sea routes between the central cities of the Nyr Dyv and Ahlissan ports (they might even make a grab for Mithat, Oldred, Wragby and Nessermouth while they're at it, making Relmor Bay an Ahlissan lake and giving them control of one end of the Nesser).
With Nyrond out of the equation, there's nothing to stop Ahlissa recreating the Great Kingdom. Urnst doesn't want a strong Ahlissa. A strong Ahlissa means more competition for Urnsian merchants from the juggernaut that is the Royal Guild of Merchants of Aerdy (backed by the recovering might of the Ahlissan Navy). I think it'd be much more in the interests of the Urnsians to continue propping up Nyrond to act as a (heavily endebted) counterweight to Ahlissa ("The Nyrondese might be arrogant, ignorant Oeridians, but they're *our* arrogant, ignorant Oeridians").
A relevent example from history is the Duchy of Burgundy, which bouyed up by the ambition of Charles the Bold, made a bid for power in the 15th century at the expense largely of the King of France, until it was eventually squished and partitioned by their larger neighbours (Charles also made the repeated, and ultimately fatal mistake of trying to take on Swiss pikemen on home ground). Karell is no Charles (less ferocious and ambitious and more prudent) and Lynwerd is a far stronger ruler even than the cunning Louis XI.
Whatever about blanket alignments (which are nonsense anyway) - countries don't usually act against their self interest (not countries that want to remain countries for long). In this case, I can't see how pushing Nyrond over is in Urnst's long, or even medium-term interests. The old Suel nobles in Saltaran might wheeze on about restoring the glory of the Maure, but you can bet the merchants and bankers in Leukish and Radigast City would have no truck with it.
If the Urnsts really want to strangle Nyrond, instead of invading, they'd try to prod the kingdom further into debt to the point where the Crown would have to basically sell off parts of the kingdom, including perhaps positions in court, to the Urnsians to avoid bankruptcy. Also - with an Urnsian queen, the duchy might gain some influence in court (the Venetians used this tactic quite successfully to win Cyprus for the Most Serene Republic). In the long run though - the passing of King Archbold really put paid to any Urnsian ambitions to profit from Nyrond's ruin. Lynwerd seems too vigorous and able a ruler to allow himself to be pushed around or backed into a corner by the Urnsts.
By far a better move for the Duchy is to work to undermine the Domain of Greyhawk. Taking control of the Free City would put the immense wealth and trade of Greyhawk in the Duke's hands. Plus defeating the Free City would be a much more managable task than trying to take on the vast armies of Nyrond (especially if the Urnsians were to make common cause with the rebel factions in Hardby).
I am seeing all posts to this thread, except the gibbering mouther image, as blank - no text. Is this just me?
I've had a couple of loading errors where the page has been partioned for the messages, but no text have appeared. When I reloaded, the problem self-corrected. _________________ <strong><em>Show me a hero and I'll write you a tragedy.</em></strong> F. Scott Fitzgerald and/or Harvey Danger, take your pick.
Just because someone is weak for the moment doesn't mean every neighbour becomes a jackal under the guise of opportunity. Especially nations whose main strength in the region is their financial not there military muscle. If "real politik" has taught us anything, countries value an indebted border state alot more than you give Urnst credit for CSL especially when the states in the area are: Fundamentalist State, Chaotic Despot and an Imperialist Kingdom.
PS: GVD I think you have your quotes mixed up, that was quoted by CSL.
Just because someone is weak for the moment doesn't mean every neighbour becomes a jackal under the guise of opportunity. Especially nations whose main strength in the region is their financial not there military muscle. If "real politik" has taught us anything, countries value an indebted border state alot more than you give Urnst credit for CSL especially when the states in the area are: Fundamentalist State, Chaotic Despot and an Imperialist Kingdom.
PS: GVD I think you have your quotes mixed up, that was quoted by CSL.
Very good points. Why should Urnst soak up the damage done by an invading Aerdi force when they can have Nyrond soften the prigs up first, before they arrive on Urnst's doorstep? Anyway, invading Greyhawk, one of the military lightweights of the Flanaess, would be so much easier... _________________ <div align="left">Going to war without Keoland is like going to war without a pipe organ. They both make a lot of noise and they're both a lot of dead weight, so what's the point in taking them along? </div>
I should have stated that I meant the Duchy is the one who'd be pulling off all this skulduggery. The County and its people are considerably nicer in this respect, and much more inclined to forgive and forget, even though ironically they were the ones oppressed by the Nyrondese in the old days. I imagine the Duchy as being more pro-active, more aggressive, more outgoing, more vicious even in its aims, whereas the County is gentler, kinder, and more reserved than its southern neighbor. The County has, more than once I'm sure, doused the Duchy's powderkeg when it became a loose cannon. _________________ <div align="left">Going to war without Keoland is like going to war without a pipe organ. They both make a lot of noise and they're both a lot of dead weight, so what's the point in taking them along? </div>
I should have stated that I meant the Duchy is the one who'd be pulling off all this skulduggery. The County and its people are considerably nicer in this respect, and much more inclined to forgive and forget, even though ironically they were the ones oppressed by the Nyrondese in the old days. I imagine the Duchy as being more pro-active, more aggressive, more outgoing, more vicious even in its aims, whereas the County is gentler, kinder, and more reserved than its southern neighbor. The County has, more than once I'm sure, doused the Duchy's powderkeg when it became a loose cannon.
Agreed CSL, I'd see the County folk as being more pragmatic and cosmopolitan (in general) than their more insular cousins in the Duchy.
Agreed, the urnst states are eager to exploit their new prominence at the present situation to there advantage but that does not have to mean militarily, I can see a "soft power" situation developing where as Nyrond recovers economically and militarily both urnst states quietly expect sweetheart trade deals and diplomatically remind the smaller powers of the area that Nyrond is their "good friend".
Pehaps that is one of the reasons the City of Greyhawk isn't making an issue of the duchy continued presence in the western mines.
Remember the Urnst states should be plucking the golden goose not killing it.
Erik Mona posted a message with list of the members of the HS no the WOTC Greyhawk boards about a Year ago with WarDuke listed as one of them. You might search over there. If you can't find the thread, I have Erik's message saved at home.
I'm pretty sure that was the real Anthraxus in Artifact of Evil. When Anthraxus sees the sign of Zuggtmoy (the ring of mushrooms growing from the decaying matter falling from his own body) he feels terror; something that wouldn't have been the case had he been an ally of Iuz. At least, he wouldn't have been surprised. See page 234.
I think the only account of the fall of Molag in Artifact of Evil is on page 343. "Molag fell to the mundane armies of Iuz... Of the Hierarchs themselves, not even Iuz knew for certain. Those who had served these men had either died or taken service under their new master. Some few escaped, of course, for the Ten [three of the original thirteen are dead] had surely managed to flee somewhere. Rumor said that they had been carried far to the south, but nothing was known beyond this tale."
i have never gamed in/around the Hierarchs, and havent thought much about them. But is it possible that at least one of these guys had a henchman who could & would resurrect them?
i have never gamed in/around the Hierarchs, and havent thought much about them. But is it possible that at least one of these guys had a henchman who could & would resurrect them?
Dungeon #105 confirms that the Unnameable Hierarch was returned to Oerth as a greater devil.
The others apparently weren't well-liked enough for anyone to bother to resurrect them.
And what an article, rasgon. A great weaving of Planescape lore with the Gord stories and Greyhawk history. Mydianchlarus whispered secret and the identity of Warduke revealed and tied in with Greyhawk history and NPCs, no less.
Great work!
EDIT: Wait a minute, since I'm not familiar with the D&D cartoon and toy minis so I didn't realize it before googling. You managed to work in those guys too? And as alter egos of famous Greyhawk NPCs. I'm quite baffled.
EDIT2: Well well, layers upon layers. I wonder who among the readership gets all of them. I think I'll have to read up on BoVD, XL1 Quest for the Heartstone and Shady Dragon Inn too. Masterful...
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I am sooo bad at this too, but Crag, I think your references to GVD should have been to Woesinger 
