I was hoping for a bit of advice on something. I'm a bit stuck with illusions and normal animals. I'm not sure if an illusion's effect is lost on a natural animal of normal animal intelligence, but then, I suppose because it's ridiculously late, I'm finding myself wondering if they would indeed see it.
For instance, illusionary wall cast over the entrance of a cave mouth to appear to be nothing more than mountainous rock. Would your average everyday horse balk at being directed to plow through what appears to be solid rock? Would it, being of animal intelligence, not see it? Or does its animal intelligence have nothing to with this?
I was in the middle of writing something and was about to have the animal balk at being led through the illusion, then, for some reason, I started wondering if because its an animal with a lil pea brain, would it see the illusion. The spell discription says nothing about it not affecting anything under a certain intelligence or wisdom or whatever........its late, and I do apologize for babbling, could someone just throw a bone this way, please?
Speaking from a 1E point of view, animals would not be immune to illusions, but because they way they recieve and process information, the illusion might not have the same effect on the animal as it would a human. An illusion with only a visual component would be 'seen' by a dog, but quickly dismissed.
As for the wall example, I would think the animal wouldn't attempt to pass through on its own, but it wouldn't balk too much at being led through.
Scott
An illusion with only a visual component would be 'seen' by a dog, but quickly dismissed.
I disagree. Suppose you have an illusion of a really really big dog to try and scare off the (merely) really big dogs outside the duke's estate. Now, it's true that dogs rely on smell more than sight, but, they still see. They also have enough intelligence to know what a really really big dog is supposed to smell like.
They don't necessarily, IMO, have the intellect to make the logical assumption that because the really really big dog doesn't smell the way it is supposed to, that it must be an illusion.
IMO, the illusion would work, possibly with some unforseen and possibly unfortunate side effects. When dogs get confused, they may indeed run, as the Illusionist in my example intended, but there's also a very good chance they will become violent, and as soon as they try to attack the illusionary really really big dog, they are definitely going to be entitled to a disbelief saving throw. Now the illusionist is stuck with some really ticked off dogs that have a pretty good chance of smelling him if he was close enough to cast the spell. _________________ What would Raxivort do?<br />
I think both people are right. It depends on the kind of illusion and how it is used. In 3rd edition I think it makes it a little clearer, though I think the same is implied in first edition. There are five kinds of illusion and each with its own effects. Without going into all the details some illusions are more complete then others usually higher in level too. I also think it depends on how it is used. The cave over by a illusionary wall as described would cause the average animal to ignore the cave as it went about its business. A wolf tracking something by scent into to the cave would be at the very least be very agitated by the wall and would probably attempt to go through wall if hungry enough. I do not think a horse would plough right in though. I think it could be coaxed in. There are other illusions that are more complete which add the scent, feel and look i.e. deck of illusion or dust of illusion in 3E. So animal could be fooled by these kinds of illusions. A doppelganger I believe would not be able to fool the Masters favourite horse or dog. It would see though incomplete mannerisms if not scent. Humans often underestimate animals.
2E PHB has about a page and a half on adjucating illusions. Some of the points that it makes are that the key to believable illusions are creating things with detail that matches the expectations of the being perceiving the illusion, and that an illusionist creates more believeable illusions of things he has actually seen.
In the case of animals, then, I would say that they are affected by illusions, but affected only to the extent that their sensory system and expectations are similar to the illusionist. The PHB2 says explicitly that creatures who rely more on smell than sight should be alowed bonuses to save. Thus, perhaps the thing to do is say that all animals are affected, but assign each a different save depending on its sensory system.
It is worth pointing out that even animals who use sight may have a sight different than humans (binocular, color vision, omnivores). Birds, for example, have four types of color receptors in their eyes (humans have three). Probably a human would be incapable of producing a complex visual illusion that would look "right" to a bird. Bees rely on light in the ultra-violet spectrum that humans can't see. A drow illusionist (with ultravision) might be able to make illusions realistic to insects, but a human not. Some snakes see in the infra-red: an illusionist with infravision might reproduce this well, another not. This is not to say that a bird wouldn't be scared by something that was not colored right; just that it would have a better save because the illusion was unrealistic.
I can't find my copy of Isle of the Ape at the moment, but I remember that there is at least a paragraph about how the animals on the island are not affected by illusions due to their animal intelligence and relience on smell.
Finally, my own personal experience with horses suggests that they are scared of motion (which makes sense as they are herbivores, ie, prey) and falling down (which makes sense since they are big and get hurt when they fall down). I have seen horses spook at butterflies and shadows, and not like being led over bridges. I have never seen one scared of walls. In your particular case, most horses would balk at being ridden into the illusionary rock wall, or approaching it at a high speed. But I expect most domesticated horses would not be spooked if they approached it slow enough. If the person leading them walked through it, most horses would follow behind.
I'd say that an animal would still be affected (potentially) by an illusion, regardless of what it "sees". However, just how the animal percieves it, and then reacts, is what would be different.
I'd figure that even if an animal 'made it's save', it is likely too stupid to realize it is an illusion. Humans (and demihumans) are smart enough to think "Hey, that oger has no smell! It's an illusion!", where a dog thinks "That oger has no smell. That's just not right. Hmmm...what to do, what to do...uh...hmmm...I'll just avoid it. Too wierd for me. I don't like it." :)
Basically, the animal may "realize" that something isn't what it was expecting, but it isn't smart enough to put 2-and-2 together to deduce that it "isn't real"....just that its "different".
Thanks for the information and opinions. And thank you Kirt for the point of view from one who has had personal experience with horses. I've been on a horse all of two times in my life. I have Isle of the Ape somewhere on a shelf and I'll have to check that snipet of information there.
Denakhan also made a good point with:
Quote:
Basically, the animal may "realize" that something isn't what it was expecting, but it isn't smart enough to put 2-and-2 together to deduce that it "isn't real"....just that its "different".
I was also on that line of thought, imagining that the animal would probably see an illusion no matter what it is anyway. Even though it may not understand what is going on, because of sensory perception such as smell, it can still see. But because it has animal intelligence it cannot formulate the idea to think "I attempt to disbelieve!" Therefore you get the 'I'll just stay away from the freaky non-scent thing, that I know is supposed to have a scent.'
Sure many animals would avoid things they didn't understand, but only to the extent that such things are threatening and perceived as potentially real. Most dogs and cats ignore almost everything on television - they don't avoid the television simply because it shows pictures of animals they can't smell. Only occasionally something like a moving bird or barking dog will catch their interest, precisiely because that "illusion" has parts that are of particular relevence to the dog or cat. Cats can spend hours chasing the spot of light that a flashlight makes. I have no idea whether they "know" it is not "real" or not. But the bottom line is that cats are hard-wired to chase small things, and a shiny point of light is a trigger for them. Illusions will impact animals to the extent that they seem real to the animal in question, and that means whether they affect the senses that the animal uses with cues that the animal is looking for.
Sure many animals would avoid things they didn't understand, but only to the extent that such things are threatening and perceived as potentially real. Most dogs and cats ignore almost everything on television - they don't avoid the television simply because it shows pictures of animals they can't smell. Only occasionally something like a moving bird or barking dog will catch their interest, precisiely because that "illusion" has parts that are of particular relevence to the dog or cat. Cats can spend hours chasing the spot of light that a flashlight makes. I have no idea whether they "know" it is not "real" or not. But the bottom line is that cats are hard-wired to chase small things, and a shiny point of light is a trigger for them. Illusions will impact animals to the extent that they seem real to the animal in question, and that means whether they affect the senses that the animal uses with cues that the animal is looking for.
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I have Isle of the Ape somewhere on a shelf and I'll have to check that snipet of information there.