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Sleep spell
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Wolfling
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Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:28 am  
Sleep spell

This may seem like a glaringly obvious question but ... does the sleep spell affect friends and enemies alike or can the caster choose to only affect enemies?
Lanthorn
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Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:43 am  

Everyone is affected! It is one of the challenges of casting the spell. I had a player's bard cast this spell once and it affected his other PC who was being attacked by humanoids!

The caster selects a point of origin and the spell starts there, working outwards. Roll 2d4 to determine the number of HD (or lvls) affected. Low HD and lvls are affected first. Nothing with HD or lvls over 4 can be affected.

Good luck!

-Lanthorn
Wolfling
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Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:32 am  

Thanks Lanthorn - that's what I suspected but until I was sure I was being lenient to the party wizardess. She's going to love this news Laughing
Lanthorn
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Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:50 pm  

My pleasure...your player's pain. Evil Grin

-Lanthorn
Mystic-Scholar
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Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:37 am  

You shouldn't tell her. Experience is the best teacher and -- outside the classroom -- that's exactly how young Wizards learn . . . trail and error!

The results can be quite amusing. Wink
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Dark_Lord_Galen
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Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:58 am  

Mystic-Scholar wrote:
You shouldn't tell her. Experience is the best teacher
The results can be quite amusing. Wink

AGREED
I had a bard cast a sleep spell on a group of large spiders attacking the group.... hummm the spiders appreciated the "support" hehe Evil Grin
SirXaris
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Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:06 pm  

My player's PCs have suffered a couple of losses due to ensnaring fellow party members in the effects of Sleep spells. But, then, so have their opponents. Smile

SirXaris
Lanthorn
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Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 pm  

I agree about experience as the best teacher. However, if your player is role-playing a character with a high Intelligence (or even Wisdom), you could, if you were 'merciful,' allow an ability check to see if the character realizes the potential side effects even if the player does not. I've done this before...

-Lanthorn (NOT pondering this one! Wink )
Mystic-Scholar
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Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:05 pm  

Make it a Wisdom check. Wisdom is the judicious use of knowledge. Just because a person has a high intelligence, doesn't mean that they will "use it" to grasp/understand the consequences of their actions. Wink

But in truth, if your Player doesn't realize the consequences of a given action/spell, why would their character? Confused

Live and Learn! Evil Grin
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Lanthorn
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Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:57 pm  

Mystic-Scholar wrote:
Make it a Wisdom check. Wisdom is the judicious use of knowledge. Just because a person has a high intelligence, doesn't mean that they will "use it" to grasp/understand the consequences of their actions. Wink

But in truth, if your Player doesn't realize the consequences of a given action/spell, why would their character? Confused

Live and Learn! Evil Grin


This goes back to my thread I fashioned under the General Forum section about playing characters with very high stats when the player is merely 'average.' That's the only reason I tossed out that suggestion.

-Lanthorn
BlueWitch
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Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:30 pm  



Last edited by BlueWitch on Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
Mystic-Scholar
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Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:04 pm  

And that brings up an entirely different problem, possibly a game ending one.

Perhaps the Player does understand the consequences, but just doesn't care? I don't see the other players wanting to put up with that for very long.

I'll again quote from the 3.5 Tome of Magic, page 122:

"Most NPC Masters of Shadow become domineering individuals who care little for their former allies . . . As a Master of Shadow Player Character (assuming you do not wish to alienate your companions), you should be careful not to carry this trait to the extreme."

One should consider this when using area effect spells. This is something that the DM should talk about before hand with his players. Angering your fellow players, just because "you" decide that "they" can survive the effects of the spell, is not a good thing.

It certainly isn't what a "good" PC would do and -- even more importantly -- it isn't "your" decision to make.

But, as I said, that's an entirely different problem.
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Gilban
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Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:42 am  

Casting spells willy-nilly should have an effect on the caster's alignment - first to chaotic and if there is a continued lack of concern for one's allies it might even be considered evil. Having the capability to act responsibly but choosing not to knowing full well that it might be hurtful to one's companions (gross negligence) could be considered evil.
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Wolfling
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Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:41 am  

I decided to forewarn the wizard in question mainly because I feel that if the wizard knows the spell and has it scribed in their spellbook then I would assume they would know a significant fact like would the spell affect allies as well as foes. I mean that's not a nuance of the spell, it's a big old major point!

For those less obvious queries I think either a Wisdom or Intelligence check makes sense. To be honest either would be relevant. Wisdom to figure out how to apply the learned knowledge or Intelligence to remember something a mentor or journal might have mentioned about the application of the spell.

On the other hand - if the wizard over looks something that is clearly in black & white within the spell description, that's another matter hehe!
SirXaris
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Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:49 am  

I think you've got it right, Wolfling. Especially if your player's PC has already cast Sleep several times without it affecting his companions. It would then be unfair of you, as the DM, to change the effects without first telling him/her.

But, yes, I think that the fact that the spell will effect everyone, friend or foe, within its AoE is an important fact that would have been taught by the mage's mentor. This may not, necessarily, apply if it was a spell that the wizard discovered on a scroll as treasure or researched himself without the assistance of a mentor, though. Evil Grin

SirXaris
Mystic-Scholar
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Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:32 pm  

SirXaris wrote:
This may not, necessarily, apply if it was a spell that the wizard discovered on a scroll as treasure or researched himself.


That's usually how it happens. Remember, any canon source you read will tell you that a "young" Wizard leaves Greyhawk's Academy of Magic at 1st level.

How many spells do you allow your 1st level Wizard to know? Right out of the box?

I just allow them a few. A handful of 1st level spells and perhaps one 2nd level spell that his teacher may have given him. Evil Grin
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SirXaris
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Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:40 pm  

True, Mystic, but I still expect any mentor of a quality that would teach at the Greyhawk Academy of Wizardry would, at least, provide every student with a basic overview of other commonly-encountered spells, especially the low level ones.

Thus, any 1st level graduate of the Academy that did not begin knowing the Sleep spell would know that it has an AoE that affects friend and foe alike. Sleep is one of the absolutely best 1st level spells, so leaving the Academy without its knowledge would put the student in a minority to begin with. Every student should have at least a cursory knowledge of the effects of Sleep.

If this question were posted about a less commonly used/encountered spell, it may be less certain that a wizard would have knowledge of its workings. I only make the above points because of the extreme frequency of Sleep, in my experience.

SirXaris
Mystic-Scholar
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Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:48 pm  

SirXaris wrote:
Sleep is one of the absolutely best 1st level spells . . .


I appreciate the thought, but it's all a matter of opinion. I rarely take the Sleep spell myself, preferring a more "aggressive" collection of spells. Wink

That's not to say that you didn't bring up a good point. Cool
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SirXaris
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Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:41 am  

Mystic-Scholar wrote:
SirXaris wrote:
Sleep is one of the absolutely best 1st level spells . . .


I appreciate the thought, but it's all a matter of opinion. I rarely take the Sleep spell myself, preferring a more "aggressive" collection of spells. Wink

That's not to say that you didn't bring up a good point. Cool


Thanks! Cool

Since it's still on the topic of the Sleep spell, I'd like to ask you what spells you consider "more aggressive" for a 1st level spellcaster. I can't think of many spells other than Sleep (in 2e, since that is your prefered system) that can take out up to four small humanoids or one ogre at a safe distance. Color Spray comes close, but lacks the advantage of distance. Likewise, Burning Hands. It could possibly take out up to four kobolds, if the damage die roll were high enough...

Help me out here. Confused

SirXaris
Mystic-Scholar
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Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:11 am  

SirXaris wrote:
I'd like to ask you what spells you consider "more aggressive" for a 1st level spellcaster. I can't think of many spells other than Sleep (in 2e, since that is your prefered system) that can take out up to four small humanoids or one ogre at a safe distance.


I do take Color Spray, but the problem with both, for me, is simply this:

At lower levels, my Magic User is a "distance" fighter; cast Magic Missile, reach for crossbow. Thus, my companions (tanks) are nearly always in the path of Sleep and Color Spray.

I never "whack" my own guys. Why? Because I play with Evil DMS like . . . Sir Xaris! Evil Grin

As soon as I cast Sleep -- and everyone falls down -- and proceed to walk over to cut the throats of the enemy, before waking up my companions, Sir Xaris will have 3 more Orcs come from another hallway, with my 1st level Magic User having no spells and only a staff and dagger to confront them with.

And 1st level Magic Users SUCK at melee. Something for all you "younger" gamers to remember! Wink Laughing

As to my preferred spells: Only a fool leaves home without Magic Missile and/or Armor . . . but you knew that! Wink Laughing

Then there's: Burning Hands, Detect Magic, Enlarge (cast upon "my" fighter), Read Magic and Identify.

As I said, I don't allow too many spells just "coming out of school," but Color Spray, Sleep, Feather Fall, Grease, Hold Portal, Mount, Shield, etc. all have their place and uses.

It must be remembered that in 2e, a Magic User will reach 4th level before he/she has a "wider" range of spells to choose from. At 1st level you only get to remember one spell, at 2nd, two spells. So, at 1st level it's either Magic Missile or Armor for me. At 2nd level, Magic Missile and Armor.

I will be 4th or 5th level before I decide to add Sleep or Color Spray to my memorized spells.

But hey . . . that's just me! Wink Cool Laughing

Oh! Almost forgot! "First" 2nd level spells I choose? Knock, Web and Ray of Enfeeblement.
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Last edited by Mystic-Scholar on Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:19 am; edited 2 times in total
Mystic-Scholar
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Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:12 am  

This is an edit. The computer did a double post. I hate when it does that! Mad Evil

The option to delete the post is not "there." Weird. Confused
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SirXaris
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Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:18 pm  

Mystic-Scholar wrote:
I never "whack" my own guys. Why? Because I play with Evil DMS like . . . Sir Xaris! Evil Grin

As soon as I cast Sleep -- and everyone falls down -- and proceed to walk over to cut the throats of the enemy, before waking up my companions, Sir Xaris will have 3 more Orcs come from another hallway, with my 1st level Magic User having no spells and only a staff and dagger to confront them with.


Laughing You slay me, Mystic. Or, rather, I slay you! Evil Grin

Quote:
And 1st level Magic Users SUCK at melee. Something for all you "younger" gamers to remember! Wink Laughing


Funny you mention that because I ran a group through Horror on the Hill once back in college and made the two little old ladies witches, rather than helpful and kind. During the melee that ensued the one with the wand managed to paralyze the entire party except the PC Magic-User, who was all out of spells. He jumped for her with his dagger, we rolled initiative, the PC MU won and impaled her, thus saving the entire party with a melee attack. At 1st level, even. Shocked

Quote:
As to my preferred spells: Only a fool leaves home without Magic Missile and/or Armor . . . but you knew that! Wink Laughing


See, I've never considered having a single Magic Missile to be worth bothering with. I never take that spell until my Wizard is 5th level and can cast at least three of them. Neutral However, I do realize that there are some nifty tricks that the missile can be used for other than simply doing a small bit of damage to a single opponent. Wink Armor, however, is a definate must!

Quote:
Then there's: Burning Hands, Detect Magic, Enlarge (cast upon "my" fighter), Read Magic and Identify.


Those are nice, though the extremely short range of Burning Hands makes it a suicide spell, in most cases. Razz

In 3.5e/Pathfinder, which is my system of choice, Detect Magic and Read Magic are zero-level cantrips which can be cast as often as desired, so they don't need to take up the precious few spell slots allotted a 1st level Wizard. I agree that Enlarge may be the best of the lot for its milage. It has a duration long enough to allow the party tank to really deal out a lot of damage to opponents.

Quote:
Oh! Almost forgot! "First" 2nd level spells I choose? Knock, Web and Ray of Enfeeblement.


What?! No Invisibility?! Surprised

SirXaris
Mystic-Scholar
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Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:39 pm  

SirXaris wrote:
Funny you mention that . . . During the melee that ensued the . . . PC Magic-User . . . jumped for her with his dagger . . . and impaled her, thus saving the entire party with a melee attack. At 1st level, even.


Some people are just lucky . . . or he serves Wee Jas, "the Ruby Sorceress." Boccob doesn't care enough to interfere and save a 1st level Magic User like that! Laughing

SirXaris wrote:
I do realize that there are some nifty tricks that the missile can be used for other than simply doing a small bit of damage to a single opponent. Armor, however, is a definite must!


See? You're becoming more of a thinking Magic User everyday! Wink

SirXaris wrote:
. . . the extremely short range of Burning Hands makes it a suicide spell, in most cases. Razz


Ah! In most cases! But Burning Hands is far less suicidal than a plain, steel dagger when faced with a Lycanthrop or Undead! Razz

SirXaris wrote:
In 3.5e/Pathfinder, which is my system of choice, Detect Magic and Read Magic are zero-level cantrips which can be cast as often as desired, so they don't need to take up the precious few spell slots allotted a 1st level Wizard.


Ah ha! But "we" aren't playing 3.5 Pathfinder "here," are we? Razz

SirXaris wrote:
What?! No Invisibility?!


I'm not a "back-stabbing" Thief/Rogue, so . . . no, no Invisibility. Razz

I do keep a scroll of Invisibility, for use by, or upon, my Thief/Rogue companion. But I don't waste a spell slot for it. You are under the misguided impression that "I" -- with a mere 4 hit points -- do the sneaking and scouting for my adventuring group. rolleyes

Not hardly. Evil Grin Laughing
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Lanthorn
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Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:05 pm  

I would tend to agree with the notion that, in a School (or University) of Wizards (formal training), graduating (1st lvl) students would/should be rather familiar with most 'traditional' and rather common spells, their effects, benefits, limitations, etc., as part of that schooling.

Nuances, perhaps not. This is a DM call, ability check (Int?), or random die roll.

-Lanthorn
Mystic-Scholar
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Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:10 pm  

I agree that the "knowledge" would be there, but practical experience with the area of effect?

Who stood there and allowed themselves to be put to sleep? One target, sure, but five or six to simulate the cone shaped area of effect? Doesn't seem really practical.

I think there would be some "trail and error" in the field, a.k.a. the adventure itself.
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Lanthorn
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Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:30 pm  

If memory serves me correctly, in the University (Guild, maybe?) of Wizards there is a room designated specifically for testing out spells.

Ultimately, the DM will have to decide the degree to which PCs (and NPCs) are trained with respect to spell knowledge and outcomes.

-Lanthorn
Mystic-Scholar
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Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:37 pm  

Very true, I was merely implying that I don't see one of the teachers having six students stand in a cone shape to demonstrate.

Though that is quite possible. Evil Grin
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Last edited by Mystic-Scholar on Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:50 am; edited 1 time in total
SirXaris
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Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:11 pm  

Mystic-Scholar wrote:
I do keep a scroll of Invisibility, for use by, or upon, my Thief/Rogue companion. But I don't waste a spell slot for it. You are under the misguided impression that "I" -- with a mere 4 hit points -- do the sneaking and scouting for my adventuring group. rolleyes

Not hardly. Evil Grin Laughing


Nope. Not any more than I expect you to use the Enlarge spell on yourself. I expect you to use Sleep to make another party member (the Thief who still only has about a 60-70% chance to Hide in Shadows at 3rd level) able to spy and scout out the guards in the next room in the dungeon, etc. Wink

Mystic-Scholar wrote:
Very true, I was merely implying that I don't see one of the teachers having six students stand in a cons shape to demonstrate.

Though that is quite possible. Evil Grin


Except, if I recall correctly, the Sleep spell has a circular area of effect with a radius centered on a spot indicated by the caster. You really don't use that spell very often, do you Scholar? Razz

SirXaris
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Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:52 am  

SirXaris wrote:
You really don't use that spell very often, do you Scholar?


Nope! Probably confused it with Color Spray. Wink
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