Canonfire! Forums-viewtopic-Clerical Spell Research

Thu May 09, 2013 5:56 am Clerical Spell Research

A quick question for you -

when a cleric is researching and creating a new spell - would you allow that spell to be of a Sphere that the deity could not usually grant?

So for example one of the priest's in the party is researching a spell to 'password protect' his magic mirror. His deity doesn't grant the Wards or Guardian spheres which the spell most appropriately fits in. It could be shoe-horned into the Protection sphere at a push however but it isn't the best choice.

For the purposes of a researched spell is the Sphere even relevant or does it just belong outside such things in a kind of 'personal' sphere of the priest's?

Thu May 09, 2013 9:23 am

2nd Ed. priests are allowed to cast spells outside the spheres of their deity, if I recall correctly, but they are limited in the level of such spells they can attain, yes? I would use those rules as guidelines for what spheres a priest may research spells in.

Clerical spell research should include quite a bit of communion with the researcher's deity or heavenly intermediaries, so it stands to reason that a cleric should not be able to research a spell that is from a sphere that stands in opposition to one of the diety's own spheres, however.

SirXaris
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Thu May 09, 2013 9:51 am

2nd Edition's Players Handbook, page 33, says this:

"All priest spells are divided into 16 categories called spheres of influence . . . no priest can cast spells from every sphere of influence . . . a priest has either major or minor access to a sphere . . . a priest with minor access to a sphere can only cast 1st, 2nd and 3rd level spells from that sphere."

The priest cannot cast spells to which he/she has no access. However, the publication goes on to state this:

"A cleric has major access to every sphere of influence except the plant, animal, weather and elemental spheres (he has minor access to the elemental sphere and cannot cast spells from the other three spheres) . . . The cleric receives his spells as insight directly from his deity . . . as a sign of and reward for his faith . . ."

The god that the Cleric serves determines which spheres he/she has access to and which of these spheres are Major and which are Minor.

Of course, as the DM, you can "bend the rules" however you like. Wink

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Thu May 09, 2013 2:15 pm Re: Clerical Spell Research

Thu May 09, 2013 2:31 pm

I think this came up before in another closely related thread, but can clerics use scrolls with spells inscribed upon them from Spheres NOT of their access?

Ex: Can a priest of Pelor use a scroll with an Elemental Fire or Astral spell on it?

If memory serves me, specialist wizards cannot...and cannot even use ITEMS that duplicate effects from opposition schools UNLESS they are categorized under other Schools that are not in opposition to their own.

-Lanthorn

Thu May 09, 2013 2:36 pm Re: Clerical Spell Research

Thu May 09, 2013 9:25 pm

No, I hope the specialist wizard who is barred Necromancy spells in my campaign doesn't research an evocation spell that simultaneously exposes a touched individual to negative energy, thus removing hit points, while the caster is exposed to positive energy, which gives them temporary hit points, both to the tune of d6 per 2 levels.

As to a cleric/priest using a scroll of a spell that is from a Sphere they do not personally have access to, yes they can use it, as the spell's power is contained in the scroll. One need only be a cleric/priest to use it. A cleric/priest certainly cannot make a scroll of a spell they do not themselves have access to though.
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Thu May 09, 2013 11:53 pm

Thanks for the feedback guys.

In this case there was precedence in the Protection sphere with the Forbiddance spell that does in effect a similar yet more diverse and powerful effect. Some spells seem to sit within more than one sphere anyways.

Also I just nerfed the player's deity after a project to bring all the speciality priest powers in line (the writer of the Suel gods in Scarlet Brotherhood seemed to be feeling very generous when he handed out the available Spheres and powers granted!) so I figured this would molify him a little Wink

I've always wondered with scrolls whether or not the specifics of the god is written in them or if it's left with deity-vague so to speak. Would a priest of Pelor really be happy casting a scroll scribed by a priest of Iuz?

Fri May 10, 2013 7:43 am

I'm going to assume that we're not discussing "Nutkin." Wink

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Fri May 10, 2013 8:42 am

Haha no we are not ... are you playing in that one?

Fri May 10, 2013 11:17 am

Fri May 10, 2013 11:23 am

Another workaround would be incorporating an elemental or necromantic effect into the ward, e.g. Fire Trap.

Which Suel god is it , btw?

Fri May 10, 2013 11:31 am

Sat May 11, 2013 12:48 am

Vestcoat - it's Wee Jas. However, I undertook a project a while back to bring a sense of regulation to the granted spheres of all the deities. I found in particular the Suel deities (as written up in Scarlet Brotherhood) were overpowered. So Wee Jas in my game grants the following;

All, Astral, Divination, Elemental (all)*, Healing*, Law, Necromantic, Protection, Sun*, Thought;

Mystic - well good question. It depends on whether the scroll is scribed with "Oh great and evil Iuz cause blindness in my foes etc etc" or left with blanks!

Sat May 11, 2013 6:56 am

Mon May 13, 2013 12:05 am

It was more the discrepancies between the number of spheres granted throught all the deities really. Some had meagre offering and others like Wee Jas seemed to have tons. I wanted to bring some kind of cohesion to the numbers of spheres (major and minor) granted. Obviously I wasn't a tyrant about it, there are some variations. I also felt some of the spheres asigned to deities seemed arbitrary or misguided ... and then of course I've added some of my own elements to some of the gods and I wanted their domains to reflect that.

With regards to scrolls I guess in the rules there is nothing to say a priest can't use a scroll scribed by a cleric of any other faith but from a role playing aspect I think sometimes it's fun to give the players something to think about Evil Grin

Especially clerical magic items - "oh so you're happy to wear that magical clerical garments embroidered with runes of Nerull huh?"

Mon May 13, 2013 3:06 am

Yes, people didn't really put much thought into things being very equitable it seems. That could have been tweaked majorly in the added spells section and unique spells, but they dropped the ball for the most part. I sought to remedy that a bit in the specialty priest project I began (but never finished). I would recommend revamping deficient priesthoods by using the point build system presented in Player's Options: Skills & Magic in the Customized Priest Characters section. It is a points buy system, but don't feel that you have to stick to it exactingly. For instance, if you are going to add spells then you will need to estimate their total worth (compare them to a sphere with a similar overall power level, and assign a similar points value) and assign a points value. If you are even remotely reasonable then you can't screw it up much at all.
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Mon May 13, 2013 7:41 am

Wolfling, I agree with you about the seeming inequity and oftentimes apparent arbitrary methods used regarding Spheres for Powers. For instance, I took exception to Bastion of Faith granting Heironeous minor access to Weather, probably ONLY b/c that would give his clergy Call Lightning. In no way do I see Heironeous a Power of Weather. It was, to me, a 'cheap' method giving his priests a lightning-based clerical spell...

Cebrion made a good point about 'balance' with respect to Spheres. I've typically kept to the majority of the 'rules' regarding Spheres of the Powers, with only minor adjustments. However, in no means am I a slave to the black and white...right, guys?! Wink

Maybe we should create another thread solely about Spheres and the Powers...

Wolfling, I fully agree with you about the role-playing aspect and adding a new dimension with magical items, especially those divinely created. I'd imagine the vast majority of them WOULD have runes and sigils, not to mention the holy symbol, of the Powers that imbued them with magic.

-Lanthorn

Mon May 13, 2013 8:33 am

Mon May 13, 2013 12:35 pm

Mon May 13, 2013 3:32 pm

I know he's got a lightning bolt in a clenched fist...why not just give his clerics that spell specifically OR lightning bolt instead? There's no reason to give him the entire Weather Sphere, even if limited in scope.

For the record, Kirith Sotheril (elven goddess of magic) has a cat, I think, as a holy symbol (how odd, to my way of thinking) but she doesn't even have Animal sphere.

No doubt other inconsistencies can be found. The list of oddities goes on and on...

-Lanthorn

Mon May 13, 2013 7:11 pm

Mon May 13, 2013 7:46 pm

Tue May 14, 2013 3:45 am

I'm happy to share what I've come up with so far regarding speciality priests and granted spheres. I'll start a new thread.

Good advice regarding the points buy system Cebrion - I had forgotten about that resource. So far I have just made a best guess at what felt right. I'm not too concerned with everything being completely equal - some lesser deities may grant slightly better abilities than others - I've mostly just tried to be true to my vision of the deities.

As for Heironeous - I like that he has the Weather sphere included. The Aerdy worshipped gods of skies and weather and I've always seen Heironeous and Hextor as originally gods of lightning and thunder respectively. Although not full blown weather gods any longer I like that kind of vestigal hint of their previous incarnations.

I found the most annoying occurance was the use of the Charm sphere. Any deity with a connection to emotions seemed to get it - if you look at the spells it actually grants sometimes they were at odds with the deity.

Tue May 14, 2013 2:21 pm