I'm finding myself a bit puzzled by an apparent contradiction in canon. ( What? Not possible, you say!) If Hextor was the patron deity of the See (per numerous sources -- not least of all EGG himself), then why did priests of Hextor participate in the razing of Pontylver (per Ivid the Undying)? Am I missing something?
And because the church of Hextor is not a monolithic whole where all the priests nicely consider themselves on the same team. Besides, sacking the city and purging its supposed rebels does not mean that the church of Hextor will not resume control of the See and rebuild it. As it happens, the GK when down the tubes rather more than anyone expected. Even so, I doubt the other Hextoran cult leaders are exactly crying over the lack of a Medegian rival at the moment...
As Vormaerin said the Church of Hextor was unified in name only within the GK, if you read ItU it is clear the Church of Hextor was suffering from the same decay and rot the Kingdom did.
Local and regional leaders paid lip service to rauxes (sometimes not even that) but set up their own competing power bases. Survival of the fittest.
Patriarch-General Pyrannden of Rauxes (head of Church)
Grenell in the Northern Province
Censor Spidasa in Medegia
Krennden of Delaric (leads a faction in central lands)
Ivid played the treason card with Medegia and many priests within the central lands viewed the provincial churches as too independent, not only did the destruction appeal to them (Hextor after all) but many no doubt saw the Wars as an opportunity to bring the provincial based churches back into the fold and if an example or two had to be made, so what.
Well, I guess what you're all saying makes some sense. I was just trying to picture the Hextorian clerics on one side of the battle being granted spells with which to kill the Hextorian clerics on the other side.
Hextor has never been one to shy away from bloodshed, probably see it as a means the cull the unworthy, weak from his priesthood and as a test to determine the most ruthless devout clerics of the faith.
I fully expect that this situation occurs regularly. There are also likely wars in which Heironean followers are on both sides of the conflict, though in that case it wouldn't be explicitly an attack on fellow Heironeans.
The gods like their ideology spread. They do not get direct power from their worshippers, like in many fantasy campaigns. They are powers in their own right. So if Hextoran warriors causing bloodshed and destruction (and thereby increasing tyranny in the world) happens to wipe out other Hextoran clergy.... well, so be it. The god's interests are still being advanced. And better they die in a destructive way than just get old and fall over dead.
Aerdian Hextorians taking down the Holy See is equivalent to a schism of Holy Romans against the Vatican! Hextor is about order and I always imagined Aerdi to have a rigid hierarchy concerning that priesthood. So for the razing to happen would require a split in the church over some issue or person, likely Ivid. There is most definitely some fixing needed but its not out of the realm of possibility.
First, their was \ is a schism in the church, unofficially after the wars the clergy call it "the Iron Schism".
Second, a good point has been brought to light, GH Deities spread their faiths in any conflicts, their would be fellow worshippers of several deities (good, neutral and bad) on either side.
Since GH deities take a "hands off" approach, I would say they rarely if ever take sides or deny priest spells. It's a matter of religious belief in the deity not the war that matters.
Imagine the backlash if a deity did deny spells, holy wars would become rampant as "God is clearly on their side" and mass desertion of the faithful on the side denied celestial favor.
Otherwise, GH becomes like ancient greece with the gods "popping in" to intervene all the time and taking sides in every conflict, which is not GH.
Well, Mortellan, there most certainly were all sorts of pesky Catholic groups that were opposed to the Vatican at various times, sometimes violently so. The college of Cardinals fled the city on some occassions.....
Of course, Christianity isn't a war cult in theory, so the revolts weren't quite the same as Hextorans fighting over the See of Medegia.
Besides, Medegia itself was not sacred to the faith of Hextor. They were the third or fourth faith to hold it during the empire. And even lawful faiths are riven by factions and internal rivalries. No doubt the attackers felt that they were strengthening order by crushing the 'rebels'. As well as ensuring that Ivid did not get so pissed off at the Censor that he gave the See to yet another faith....
They do not get direct power from their worshippers, like in many fantasy campaigns.
I disagree here. On what basis do you assert that the gods do not derive power from their worshipers? Gary Gygax himself -- creator of the WORLD OF GREYHAWK™ setting -- explained in detail from where deities draw their power ("Deities and their faithful", DRAGON® #97). Even if you don't want to adhere to those mechanics, the concept is still integral.
The greyhawk gods may derive some power from their worshippers, but it is not the basis of their existance as gods. In many fantasy campaigns, the FR for instance, the idea is that the more worshippers the god has, the greater its power. And a lack of worshippers means a loss of godhood.
That is clearly not true in the Greyhawk campaign. In fact, it is close to the opposite of the truth: the less powerful the god, the more worshippers it is likely to have. THe greater gods (Boccob, Lendor, Beory, Istus, Pelor, Nerull, etc) generally have few worshippers (Pelor being the exception) and generally don't care about that fact.
Boccob will remain a greater god even if no one sits their butts in the pews of one of his temples ever again. Gods are not indifferent to their worshippers (or they wouldn't bother to have any, much l ess grant spells). But they are not dependent on them in a metaphysical sense.
Ah yes, the classic debate on gods. This should run the train off the tracks nicely.
Has anyone ever postulated a compromise on this issue? Like try this, the lesser the god, the more dependant they are on worship, they claw and scrape up the ladder until 'tada' they reach GREATER status and no longer need mortals in that sense. Of course gods can slip up and fall in ranking perhaps requiring them to get worshippers to bring them back up in power. This would work good in the case of Tharizdun who is imprisoned or as a way to explain latter editions erroneously lowering deities in level.
I got the impression that the Church of Hextor in Medegia was regarded as weak and effete by their co-religionists elsewhere in Aerdy. Certainly, I'm sure the Holy Censor was not widely respected by his fellows (his armies were wupped by the woodsmen of the Grandwood and the Hestmark Highlanders in the late 570's).
Then, when he refused to answer the call of his nominal suzerain, Spidesa violated one of the fundamental tenets of feudal society. When your liege summons you, you come. If you don't, you're a traitor and a rebel. As a lawful military faith, the followers of Hextor would have regarded that as particularly heinous (especially given the close ties between the Naelax and the church of Hextor, Ivid V's espousal of Baalsy notwithstanding).
That alone would have doomed Spidesa and his subordinates (who, after all,obviously failed to bring Ivid V the Holy Censor's head on a stick). Rolling over to Osson's Almorians (Osson, you'll recall, was a follower of Heironeous - as were, I'll bet, the majority of his men) was a further nail in the coffin - the Medegian Hextorites weren't worthy to call themselves such.
As to Hextor granting spells for use against Hextorites - I've always imagined Hextor as having a McKinsey style "Up or out (feet first)" style attitude to rank and promotion. :) So, you earn your subordinates' respect through a mix of authority, prowess and terror. Lose that respect and you're likely to be called out in a duel to the death.
Furthermore in Hextorite vs Hextorite clashes - it's a case of Darwinian natural selection - if you lose, you obviously weren't a true worshipper of Hextor in the first place and the Church is stronger without you.
Well, I'm certainly not going to discuss the issue ad nauseum. Especially not in a thread where its off topic. I almost didn't answer the question for that reason, but decided that was kind of rude. Its just another IMC issue as far as I am concerned. And this is far from the worst heresy in my campaign metaphysics :)
Woesinger, that's an excellent summation of the situation. Very nice.
I got the impression that the Church of Hextor in Medegia was regarded as weak and effete by their co-religionists elsewhere in Aerdy. Certainly, I'm sure the Holy Censor was not widely respected by his fellows (his armies were wupped by the woodsmen of the Grandwood and the Hestmark Highlanders in the late 570's).
Then, when he refused to answer the call of his nominal suzerain, Spidesa violated one of the fundamental tenets of feudal society. When your liege summons you, you come. If you don't, you're a traitor and a rebel. As a lawful military faith, the followers of Hextor would have regarded that as particularly heinous (especially given the close ties between the Naelax and the church of Hextor, Ivid V's espousal of Baalsy notwithstanding).
That alone would have doomed Spidesa and his subordinates (who, after all,obviously failed to bring Ivid V the Holy Censor's head on a stick). Rolling over to Osson's Almorians (Osson, you'll recall, was a follower of Heironeous - as were, I'll bet, the majority of his men) was a further nail in the coffin - the Medegian Hextorites weren't worthy to call themselves such.
As to Hextor granting spells for use against Hextorites - I've always imagined Hextor as having a McKinsey style "Up or out (feet first)" style attitude to rank and promotion. :) So, you earn your subordinates' respect through a mix of authority, prowess and terror. Lose that respect and you're likely to be called out in a duel to the death.
Furthermore in Hextorite vs Hextorite clashes - it's a case of Darwinian natural selection - if you lose, you obviously weren't a true worshipper of Hextor in the first place and the Church is stronger without you.
Maybe we could look at this in terms of alignment. According to From the Ashes, Hextor allows LE and NE priests. Perhaps Medegia's sect was primarily NE. This would explain why the central Naelax sect (led by Pyrannden, who is LE) might be at odds with them. It also explains the Iron Schism between LE Pyrannden's followers and LE (NE) Krennden's supporters.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises
What? Not possible, you say!) If Hextor was the patron deity of the See (per numerous sources -- not least of all EGG himself), then why did priests of Hextor participate in the razing of Pontylver (per 
