It's well established that the peak of the Great Migrations was -458 CY (187 OR). Now the GreyChrondex dates the start of the migrations into the Flanaess as approximately -465 CY (180 OR) using The Adventure Begins as a source. The LGG on p. 23 says "When the struggle between the Baklunish and Suloise empires threatened to engulf central Oerik, it was proclaimed that the destiny of the Oeridians lay far to the east. So, 1,235 years ago began the Great Migrations to which the modern reckoning of the Oeridians is dated."
However 1,235 years ago is -644 CY and the Baklunish-Suloise Wars didn't start until -485 CY. I assume the 1,235 years ago to refer to the Oeridians fleeing wherever in the far west they lived before taking up residence in what is now Ull, but what does that have to do with the Baklunish-Suloise Wars?
Sorry if this has been hashed out before. Just point me to the correct thread if so.
However 1,235 years ago is -644 CY and the Baklunish-Suloise Wars didn't start until -485 CY. I assume the 1,235 years ago to refer to the Oeridians fleeing wherever in the far west they lived before taking up residence in what is now Ull, but what does that have to do with the Baklunish-Suloise Wars?
They hadn't happened yet, but Oeridian prophets predicted they would occur. I assume so, anyway. The Oeridians believed they were a people of destiny, according to Ivid the Undying, and they left their homelands partly to avoid disaster, but mostly to conquer the lands they believed the gods had reserved for them. They ended up in Ull in time to get hassled by orc and goblin mercs, but that wasn't what drove them.
I've been trying too puzzle out the movements of the Oerids before they entered the Flanaess. We can surmise that their original homeland was in what the DA1 map identifies as "Orkreich" (silly name!).
At some point though, at least some of them made it as far west as Ull, which they didn't leave till about -465 CY.
There was two theories as to how they'd have done this - basically either an early migration (before the Baklunish empire was properly organised) or a late migration (after 1 OR). Before the passage in the LGG came up , I'd have favoured the early migration - since a late migration would have entailed the Oerids traipsing right across the Baklunish Empire at its height.
This quote (which I hadn't noticed the significance of) clearly favours the late migration theory. So - I posit the following theory as to what happened:
Pre 1 OR: The Oerids are a nomadic people dwelling mostly west of the Mountains of Mur, north of the Celestial Imperium. As noted in the tale of Johydee's Mask, the Oerids are under the thrall of fell (and very likely foreign) gods.
1 OR: Johydee frees the Oerids from thralldom and prophesises the Great Destiny awaiting them in the east. The Oerids begin to move east over the Mountains of Mur and into the Bakoury/Baklunish lands
The nature of this migration is interesting. The Oerids and the Bakluni probably share a common root culture and the Baklunish influence on Common suggests that they had a lot of contact. It's possible that the Oerid hetmen parlayed with the Padishahs and passed peacefully across the Empire to Ull.
It's possible that after initial clashes, a peace was agreed and the Oerids were granted Ull to settle (similar to how the Romans settled the Vandals south of the Danube).
It's possible, though unlikely given the likely strength of the Baklunish, that the Oerids burned and raided their way across the entire length of Baklunia to settle Ull. That said, if the empire was in a weakened state - such as during a civil war between one of the Dynasties (of which the LGG says that the empire had 11). If the Oerids sided with one of the pretenders to the throne who was subseqeuntly successful, they may have been granted Ull as a reward. This also answers why they might have paused in Ull for a time before being directed onwards towards the east in 180 OR. Thinking about it - I favour this explanation, as it adds a bit of depth and drama to the history of both peoples.
This quote (which I hadn't noticed the significance of) clearly favours the late migration theory. So - I posit the following theory as to what happened:
Pre 1 OR: The Oerids are a nomadic people dwelling mostly west of the Mountains of Mur, north of the Celestial Imperium. As noted in the tale of Johydee's Mask, the Oerids are under the thrall of fell (and very likely foreign) gods.
1 OR: Johydee frees the Oerids from thralldom and prophesises the Great Destiny awaiting them in the east. The Oerids begin to move east over the Mountains of Mur and into the Bakoury/Baklunish lands
Where is this tale of Johydee's Mask from? Book of Artifacts? I've heard references to it before but have never seen a citation.
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The nature of this migration is interesting. The Oerids and the Bakluni probably share a common root culture and the Baklunish influence on Common suggests that they had a lot of contact. It's possible that the Oerid hetmen parlayed with the Padishahs and passed peacefully across the Empire to Ull.
It's possible that after initial clashes, a peace was agreed and the Oerids were granted Ull to settle (similar to how the Romans settled the Vandals south of the Danube).
It's possible, though unlikely given the likely strength of the Baklunish, that the Oerids burned and raided their way across the entire length of Baklunia to settle Ull. That said, if the empire was in a weakened state - such as during a civil war between one of the Dynasties (of which the LGG says that the empire had 11). If the Oerids sided with one of the pretenders to the throne who was subseqeuntly successful, they may have been granted Ull as a reward. This also answers why they might have paused in Ull for a time before being directed onwards towards the east in 180 OR. Thinking about it - I favour this explanation, as it adds a bit of depth and drama to the history of both peoples.
I favor a combination of the second and third explanations, although I had never considered the invading barbarians making alliance with one of the sides in a Baklunish civil war. Good one! I also considered that the Oeridians might have, after invading, been granted lands under a treaty obligation to fight for the Baklunish. Canon doesn't say they did fight for the Baklunish, but that doesn't mean they didn't.
As an aside, to my thinking the marriage between Baklunish military technology and Oeridian horsemanship probably led to the rise of the knight, which gave the Oeridians the edge they needed in the post Twin Cat migrations. Well, that and the Mighty Sevant of Luek-o.
Though I don't favor the theory of the Oeridians and Baklunish sharing a root culture I do think that the Oeridians and some elements of the Baklunish Empire (The ancestors of the Paynim) probably did culturally cross-pollinate, so to speak, in earlier times. The Baklunish horse nomads always did seem to me, and I think the LGG backs me in this, to have always been culturally distinct from the settled Baklunish culture (The core culture of the Empire I would call it).
The basis for my Oerid/Baklun common origin is mentioned on another thread somewhere in the archive. Essentially it comes from the fact that both peoples came from around the same area (northern steppes of Oerik). The presence of High and Low Khanates north of Suhfang and west of the supposed Oerid homelands makes me think that the Baklunish and Oerids had a long history. In fact - I speculate that the thing that sets the Bakhoury states of Mur, Komal, Risay etc off from the Paynims on one hand and the civilised eastern Bakluni on the other is a generous bit of mixing with the Oerids from across the mountains.
Also - the ancient Oerids and presumably more primordial Baklun nomads share a very similar stule of culture - nomadic, horse centred etcetc.
The basis for my Oerid/Baklun common origin is mentioned on another thread somewhere in the archive. Essentially it comes from the fact that both peoples came from around the same area (northern steppes of Oerik).
Is this from the "The Blood of Heroes" article in LGJ #3 or some other source(s)? Can anyone briefly outline what is known about the Hegira?
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The presence of High and Low Khanates north of Suhfang and west of the supposed Oerid homelands makes me think that the Baklunish and Oerids had a long history. In fact - I speculate that the thing that sets the Bakhoury states of Mur, Komal, Risay etc off from the Paynims on one hand and the civilised eastern Bakluni on the other is a generous bit of mixing with the Oerids from across the mountains.
Also - the ancient Oerids and presumably more primordial Baklun nomads share a very similar stule of culture - nomadic, horse centred etcetc.
That's true but IMO no more true than saying that the Kalmyks shared a common root culture with the Scythians. What I mean is that they share(d) certain cultural traits but given the obvious genetic differences between Oeridian and Baklunish, the time that passed between the Hegira (c. -2659 CY) and the beginning of Oeridian Reckoning (-644), and the roiling cultural "stewpot" that our own Central Asia historically has been, I don't believe you can apply the "common root culture" to language and other complex cultural traits. JMO.
Are we really even sure that the Baklunish of the Hegira were horse nomads? Athough if they did indeed originate in the same area as the Oeridians they probably were.
Is this from the "The Blood of Heroes" article in LGJ #3 or some other source(s)?
Yeah, that article gives background on Azor'alq and his role in the Hegira. Basically, the Baklunish royal family fled to the lands now associated with their race after the War of Light and Darkness (also mentioned in Mouqol's entry in the LGG). It says "He is first mentioned in the mythic tale of the Hegira, in which he defended the royal family from the minions of Darkness that assailed them in the flight from their defiled homeland across the desolate western mountains."
No, we don't know for sure they were horse nomads, but it does put them in the same general area that we think the Oeridians came from.
LGJ#3 says, in Joyhdee's entry, "Before the Oeridians began their migrations into the Flanaess, their race was scattered throughout much of Western Oerik." The LGG, on page 22, says, "This tale begins more than twelve centuries ago, when Oeridian tribes wandering the vast central plains of Oerik beyond the Flanaess in the Far West were driven to the east by a series of raging conflicts that culminated in the infamous Twin Cataclysms of prehistory." Both these references seem to indicate that the Oeridian territory was quite vast, though how much it overlapped with the territory of the proto-Baklunish before the Wars of Light and Darkness isn't completely clear. It also means that the Baklunish-Suel war was only the last disaster the Oeridians were subjected to. The first didn't necessarily have anything to do with the Suel or Baklunish.
Ivid the Undying says, "Driven from their homelands by a great cataclysm, they founded the great capital of Rauxes nearly 4,000 miles from their ancient homeland. No other people traveled nearly as far of their own volition (the Suel were forced to do so)."
I think the 4000 mile figure fits with the Western Oerik origin, based on the LGG map and its scale combined with the Dragon Annual Map:
There is a little more information on Johydee in the Book of Artifacts, but nothing specifically about Oerth. Johydee in that article saves a village from bandits - this was expanded in the LGJ#3 article to become a prominent Oeridian nation enslaved by the servants of evil deities.
I've always had a problem with the idea that the Oeridians were from Orcreich, since there's not a huge freshwater body of water there (or, doesn't the Dragon Annual map show any bodies of water at all??). _________________ Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html
I've always had a problem with the idea that the Oeridians were from Orcreich, since there's not a huge freshwater body of water there (or, doesn't the Dragon Annual map show any bodies of water at all??).
See for yourself. The only lake it shows is the Nyr Dyv. I don't see why there couldn't be others that it doesn't show.
I know A Guide to the World of Greyhawk Fantasy Setting speaks, on page 46, of legends of a "veritable sea" of fresh water to the west ("if such stories can be believed") but why are you connecting that to the Oeridians?
I've always had a problem with the idea that the Oeridians were from Orcreich, since there's not a huge freshwater body of water there (or, doesn't the Dragon Annual map show any bodies of water at all??).
None of the maps I've seen showing the far west (p. 7 of the '80 WGG, p. 18 of the Glossography, p. 3 of the LGG, and the Dragon Annual map) have any geographic features other than mountain ranges west of Lake Udrukankar. The second and third all appear to be derived from the map in the '80 WGG and only show the west to about the mid-point of the Celestial Imperium. I think its safe for us to assume that these areas of the maps should be labeled "hic sunt dracones" . There must be forests, hills, rivers, and lakes there. Maybe even a veritable sea in bigger than the Nyr Dyv.
Instead of placing the Oeridian homeland in Orcreich, which I would think is probably covered with thick boreal forests (Unless the orcs invented sunglasses and SPF 45 sunblock), I'd place it in what is now the eastern Celestial Imperium, which could easily be steppeland. I imagine the ancestors of the Oeridians as one of the various ethnic groups making up the various nomadic tribes of those steppes. The Baklunish were probably just another one.
As an aside I have 2 maps I collected somewhere off the web that are versions of the the '80 WGG map that do show forests, rivers and lakes in those regions, but they appear to be fan-made so I assume the features shown are nowhere near canon. One is a map showing "The Dwurs Clans of Greyhawk" and labeled "Lea Fauconniers, original by Robert Hradek." The second is exactly the same as the Fauconniers/Hradek map except it shows lattitude lines instead of the locations of homelands and migrations of Dwur. they do show a large lake in Orcreich but it's only about 1/8th the size of the Nyr Dyv.
A few things make me think that the early Bakluni were horse nomads:
1: If they're from the steppes north of the Celestial Imperium (which fits with the tale of the Hegira), then nomadism makes sense. Also, given the central position given to horses even in settled Baklunia, it's likely that the civilised states developed from more nomadic peoples spreading out of the west and settling down.
2: The DA1 map places the High and Low Khanates north of the CI/Suhfang. Khan is a form of title used by the Brazen Horde, who came from near Komal (east of the mountains) according to the LGG, but may have originated farther west (perhaps displaced by rival khans, orcs or by one of the CI's many campaigns to clear barbarian raiders from its northern borders). If the Brazen Horde were nomads, then chances are the High and Low Khanates are too. The location of the western Khanates is very similar to the area alluded to in the Hegira story.
Getting heretical, I took the approach that there is a significant Oeridian-Baklunish fusion culture looking off to the west just south of "Orcreich." It features in my 650 CY setting write up.
So I'm generally in agreement with comments directed towards that concept.
Smillan, are you talking about this map? I see latitude lines and forests, but no lake in Orcreich.
That one looks like it's derived from the map I have. In fact I just brought it up that map in my browser to compare to the one you put the link up for and they are exact duplicates in all respects except for the water features. In fact if you look at the Thin French Greyhawk map you can see where there should be rivers flowing through some forest and swamp lands. Why they were removed, beats me. If anyone is interested I can throw the map I have up on my website and put up a link here. Maybe someone can claim it. I think I got it years ago from... scratch that. Just found it at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5878/gridgeo.gif.
DMPrata wrote:
Hmm.. interesting map; I'd not seen it before. The lines of latitude don't seem to correspond to those in the Glossography, though.
Khan is a form of title used by the Brazen Horde...
I just reread the section on the Paynim and... holy crap! Check this out --
"Perhaps the greatest threat to the Paynims' mastery of the plains was advanced by Zeif, when a nation of nomads called the Brazen Horde were incited to imigrate from their distant homes beyond the coastal realm called Mur and take possession of the plains south of the sultanate. These nomads of western lineage, whose leaders DID NOT use the title of khan were no less warlike than the indigenous Paynims."
I take this to indicate that Khan is a Paynim title in origin.
Since Sam is busting out all heretical I'll join him by positing that the Baklunish, regardless of whether they originally came from Orcreich, south of Orchreich or west of Orchreich were barbaric horse nomads BUT at the end of the Hegira probably conquered an unnamed civilized urban people (Maybe similar to the Persians) and thus themselves became civilized though they retained much of their culture and language. That's the usual process by which nomadic barbarians become civilized, although they then tend to crap out and lose the empire they have gained.
I just reread the section on the Paynim and... holy crap! Check this out --
"Perhaps the greatest threat to the Paynims' mastery of the plains was advanced by Zeif, when a nation of nomads called the Brazen Horde were incited to imigrate from their distant homes beyond the coastal realm called Mur and take possession of the plains south of the sultanate. These nomads of western lineage, whose leaders DID NOT use the title of khan were no less warlike than the indigenous Paynims."
Actually, what that means is that it causes a continuity glitch.
If those late invaders used the Arabic titles, it means the "civilized" states should date from the Brazen Horde, and not from the post-Twin Cats era.
That also went into my concept of the title of Khan actually being a Baklunish-Oeridian title from a fusion culture.
Actually, what that means is that it causes a continuity glitch. If those late invaders used the Arabic titles, it means the "civilized" states should date from the Brazen Horde, and not from the post-Twin Cats era. That also went into my concept of the title of Khan actually being a Baklunish-Oeridian title from a fusion culture.
Not necessarily. From a quick read it looks like the Paynim are the only people who use the titles amir, shah and padishah. Since the current Paynim tribes seem to be a mix of the pre-Brazen Horde Paynim and Brazen Horde you could see this as a mix of Turko-Mongol title native to the former and Arabic-Persian titles native to the latter.
That said I like the idea of Khan being a title from a Baklunish-Oeridian fusion culture. So the Paynim would have come from this cultural group originally?
Hmm.. interesting map; I'd not seen it before. The lines of latitude don't seem to correspond to those in the Glossography, though.
Take another look.
Thanks. I did just that, and I realized that the latitude map in the Glossography does not jive with the latitude by hex number chart on the same page. Now I have to consider if I want to revise my campaign map.
Yeah, the hex #'s for the right half of the map are closer to matching but still off by a good bit, but the numbers given for the left half seem to be way off to nonexistent.
Yeah, the hex #'s for the right half of the map are closer to matching but still off by a good bit, but the numbers given for the left half seem to be way off to nonexistent.
Thanks for pointing that out.
The left map hex numbers would be right if the numbers were printed on the right edge of the map. For example, the 40th parallel crosses the eastern map at hex 34 and enters the western map at hex 70.
Another interesting find (note to self: reread LGG in detail - it is the gift that keeps giving).
The Paynims weren't the only people that used title like Shah and Padishah. Those titles were used in the ancient Baklunish empire, whose emperors were known by the title of Padishah. So the Arabic titles predated the arrival of the Brazen Horde. That's also implied in the Paynims section (IIRC).
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These nomads of western lineage, whose leaders DID NOT use the title of khan were no less warlike than the indigenous Paynims.
Just because they didn't use the title khan, doesn't mean that they used shah etc either.
That said - if they did use ancestral Baklunish titles like shah etc, that doesn't undermine the age of those titles in civilised eastern Baklunia. After all, both newcomers and easterners are all Baklunish, and the eastern Bakluni originally came from the same place as the Brazen Horde.
There's a few of possibilities - (a) The Arabic style titles are ancient - and were used in the Baklunish lands in the west before the Hegira. the Padishahs carried them east and established them in the empire they founded. The Bakluni left behind in the west continued to used their titles and when their ancestors migrated east as the Brazen Horde, they carried the titles with them.
Alternatively, (b) the Horde may have picked up the khan titles on the way - in the Bakoury lands (which I speculate are Oerid-Baklunish in origin); or (c) they may have picked up the titles from the Paynims themselves through acculturation and mixing.
In fairness, I'd prefer if the Horde had used khan titles. It'd make more sense. Still I can roll with them not having originally used such titles.
Amir is Arabic, even if Shah and Padishah are Persian. That means they would be closer to the rulers of Zeif and Ekbir.
Of course, they use Bey and Pasha in Ket and Tusmit, and those are Turkish.
And if the Ancient Baklunish used Shah and Padishah it would suggest even more than the founders of Zeif are a different group.
As it seems that the entire Baklunish system of title is a confused hodge podge of Middle Eastern titles - I suggest that they all be common to the Bakluni as a whole. Trying to disentangle them is going to do more harm than good.
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. There must be forests, hills, rivers, and lakes there. Maybe even a veritable sea in bigger than the Nyr Dyv.
