Ok ...this'll be my first post here. I've decided to step out from the shadows of in fear of becoming a troll.
I've a query I've pondered many times, and now has bearing on my own campaign, so I thought I'd share my question with my fellow Greyhawkers of old. Which dieties are older, the Elven pantheon of Gods or the primordial ones?
To me the word primordeal would suggest being oldest or first. But I've read other accounts that allude to the Elven pantheon as being amongst the first as well. So which is it?
What gods would you include among the "primordial" ones? I don't think that's a universally accepted category.
Personally, no, I wouldn't assume the elven gods are the oldest gods there are. I agree with Maldin's idea that there were many hundreds of generations of gods before any of the currently known ones, gods long forgotten by the present-day peoples of Oerth. I also like GV Dammerung's history that places the human and demihuman races as very young compared to the total life of the Oerth.
The question of how the various pantheons are related, if they're related at all, is an interesting one, though.
There's a briefly described elven myth in the 2nd edition accessory The Illithiad that has gods of all races descended from a "Father Sky and Mother Earth." (Pelor and Beory?) On Hallowed Ground says the gods of the elves have a variety of origins, some of them being spirits of nature who became more powerful, some the desires and hopes of the elves made flesh, some former mortals who achieved apotheosis, and some of them seemingly around since the beginning.
Races of the Wild has the oldest elven gods springing into existence from the primal void itself at about the same time as the earliest dwarf, orc, human, and other deities, and all the early gods creating the world together.
My interest in the pantheons of Oerth began over a decade ago when I tried to fit all the human and nonhuman deities into a single family tree along the lines of Hesiod's Theogony, with elemental deities (Kossuth, Istishia, Grumbar, Akadi, and the Elder Elemental God) on top, descendants of Primal Chaos, a generation of Titan-like deities (mostly stolen from the gods of Runequest/Glorantha) next, and the various racial pantheons (including the human ones) descended from them. I did assume, at the time, that the elven gods were among the oldest of the present generation of gods (younger than the dragon and giant gods, but older than the gnome, dwarf, halfling, and human gods), mostly based on the lifespans of the races in question, though that's certainly not the only way to do it. I had the gods of those races seen as more closely related (like dwarves and gnomes, then demihumans and humans, then humanoids and humans) be more closely related to one another than gods of more distantly related races (like humans and mind flayers).
On the other hand, generally "human" gods like Nerull, Pelor, Lendor, Istus, and perhaps Procan do seem very primal, probably older than the physical world. And Beory is the physical world, so she would sensibly be older than any of the races that inhabit it. So I'd make them older than any racial gods, and say that any myths that claim that gods like Moradin, Annam, or Corellon Larethian actually created the world are simply wrong.
One possibility is that those Greyhawk gods who represent multiple races are the ancestors of multiple racial pantheons. So Ulaa gave birth to both the dwarven and gnomish pantheons, and Erythnul sired the ogre, bugbear, and gnoll deities. Perhaps. Or perhaps they're hybrids, so that Ehlonna is the daughter of a human and elven god, and Erythnul is the bastard offspring of many human and monstrous deities.
Naturally, that's not the only way to do this. If you wanted to say that Corellon Larethian actually had a role in creating the world, you could.
Thanks for the reply Rasgon, all thoughts and ideas are much appreciated. I need the input.
I too agree with Maldin's concept. I've always used the notion that all the pantheons co-exist in a multiverse, however until recently I've never had to deal with precedence of age or rank even if for nothing more than historical records. For my own preference I like to stay as close as possible at all times to Gygaxian lore. Corellon Larethian while being an elder elven God is not really mentioned anywhere that I can find as being primordial but merely elder or oldest of old ones and such. Although I will keep searching.
In Oerth Journal #12, Paul Stormberg states that E. Gary Gygax's response to him asking if Tharzidun is a primordial deity, and Gary replied that he is indeed a primordial deity. Also noted, is that Tharizdun is a Greater God which differs from WotC published material regarding his divine rank. Wanting to stay true to Gary's original vision, I prefer to keep him listed as a Primordial God, which for my own campaign's usage ranks above that of a Greater God.
Also in OJ #12, Vilp-akf 'cho Rentaq, Ghaunadaur and an unnamed god are three Elder Elemental Gods, which are stated as existing during Tharizdun's reign of eternal darkness on Oerth. Also is mention of a god named Dorgha Torgu whom is out cast for bringing the Rain of Colorless Fire upon the Suloise Empire despite the provocation of the Suel's Invoked Devastation. (...two wrongs don't make a right, ideology)
So, if Tharizdun is primordial and the three EEG's existed during Tharizdun's reign, prior to mention of Pelor eventually driving out the dark God, later followed by an angered Beory whom smites the Elder Elemental God Rentaq with her staff, than I'd submit that all the names mentioned would be or are alluded to be of primordial age/rank or close to it.
So for my campaign's Primordial God's I have the following:
You mentioned Nerull, Lendor, Istus, and perhaps Procan as well yet I am having difficulty finding material to support the idea. If you could provide any references it would be much appreciated, thanks!
You mentioned Nerull, Lendor, Istus, and perhaps Procan as well yet I am having difficulty finding material to support the idea.
It's just a hunch. The amount of material you're going to be able to dredge from either official sources or Gygaxian arcana is going to be thin, so you'll have to make judgment calls at some point. Because Istus is the weaver of destiny, it makes sense to me that she would be around at the beginning of time. Lendor is the progenitor of the Suel gods, and god of time to boot, so he's going to be very old as well. Nerull seems to be Pelor's evil counterpart (NE to his NG, death to his life), so I'd expect him to be around as long as Pelor has been. Procan is credited in the LGG as the progenitor for many of the Oeridian gods, so perhaps he has Lendor-like antiquity.
Rob Kuntz wrote a PDF product recently that described Boccob (or, at least, the god of magic) as one of the deities who helped bind Tharizdun, which fits with other sources (such as the Core Beliefs: Boccob article in Dragon #338) which have Boccob considering Tharizdun, and the threat to magic his entropy represents, as his greatest foe.
The available material is indeed thin and I could spend weeks sifting through whats there only to find in the end that I'm going to have to make that judgement call after all.
I've oft considered to go on just the known information regarding alignments or spheres of control to guide my decisions but wanted to see if I could unearth any Gygaxian vision on the topic before deciding. I agree with the deities you've pointed out and the more I look at them the more I like the idea to add them as well, as they feel right for this purpose.
Primordial is hard to quantify - considered Tharizdun as the essence of the primordial chaos pre-dating this version of the muliverse. Perhaps a better way to say it is his power is the raw creative essence of the multiverse.
So for a moment in creation: Tharizdun is the ultimate primordial being.
Btw where does the Devas, Baatezu and Tanar'ri fit into the timeline.
Btw where does the Devas, Baatezu and Tanar'ri fit into the timeline.
I'd count Tharizdun as primal nothingness rather than primal chaos, personally - the sterile, hungry void, devoid of substance or potential, destruction and not creation.
The obyriths, who created the tanar'ri, predated the gods. The devas are creations of the gods, so they came much later. The fiendish histories don't mention the gods at all until long after the Battle of Pesh, when the tanar'ri already existed, but it's not exactly clear.
Back in the early days of Greytalk, Michael Kasparian gathered the most sought after questions by Greytalkers regarding the dark God and asked Gary Gygax 22 questions on Tharizdun.
After reading through it all and comparing notes from the Oerth Journal I've convinced myself that I agree with your assessment Crag when you wrote...
Crag wrote:
So for a moment in creation: Tharizdun is the ultimate primordial being.
It appears that all known written accounts of the dark God are merely of his avatars, which provides a glimpse of his true power, being that he is imprisioned and asleep.
Here are some progenitor Outsiders based on alignment:
When all is said and done and still faced with making a judgement call over precedence of outsiders, I think I'm going to go with Primordial entities predating all other types, with Tharizdun being perhaps the first or even original primordial creator. However remote it may seem on the surface, it could even be plausible that he was not always the dark one, but millennia after millennia he may have evolved into the insane entity of pure dark power we know him to be today.
On a final thought ...this would make the ultimate skeleton in the closet for those greater powers holding on to this dirty little secret over the millennia. ...Tharizdun ...father of all things ...like a cosmic parental father figure insanely outraged over the disobedieance, lack of loyalty and out right rebellian of his children. He is left with no other emotion than that of betrayal and seething anger, wanting nothing more than to undo that which he has done... creation.
I'd count Tharizdun as primal nothingness rather than primal chaos, personally - the sterile, hungry void, devoid of substance or potential, destruction and not creation.
Very nicely phrased; this is how I see Tharizdun as an impersonal force of decay. That is what is so truly terrifying about the dark one; it is not personal - Tharizdun would wipe out creation regardless if it was dedicated to evil or good; makes no difference.
To Lairythian point of enraged father figure - rather go impersonal - Tharizdun as the primal force of nothingness seeks to undo creation as an unmotivated unconscious reaction to make itself whole once again. He seeks to return the void to its natural state - Nothingness. All creation came from nothing and it must return to nothing. Creation and the creatures in it view this as pure evil and oppose this inevitable decay but in reality; it is the fullfillment of the ultimate cycle.
Cool topic! Let me add to the conversation.
Rasgon says:
Quote:
On the other hand, generally "human" gods like Nerull, Pelor, Lendor, Istus, and perhaps Procan do seem very primal, probably older than the physical world. And Beory is the physical world, so she would sensibly be older than any of the races that inhabit it. So I'd make them older than any racial gods, and say that any myths that claim that gods like Moradin, Annam, or Corellon Larethian actually created the world are simply wrong.
I am a big fan of Tolkien-ish pre-history. The Silmarillion went through creation of the world and their gods, and then subsequent ages. Each time the world was reshaped much like Earth may have started as a Pangaea like continent mass then shifted over millenia into its present state. My point is, Beory may be the embodiment of Oerth but those deities who are in her playground could have profound control over its surface and what goes on it. Correlon and co. could still be said to create the world even if it were onlysuperficially responsible for the current Age's appearance.
Rasgon disagrees that Tharizdun is a primal destroyer/creator entity. I agree more closely with Lairythian:
Quote:
I think I'm going to go with Primordial entities predating all other types, with Tharizdun being perhaps the first or even original primordial creator. However remote it may seem on the surface, it could even be plausible that he was not always the dark one, but millennia after millennia he may have evolved into the insane entity of pure dark power we know him to be today.
IMC the Far Realms is the nascent multiverse to follow the current cosmology when Tharizdun undoes all creation. With nothing left but a void, the Far Realms which stands outside reality will then be the material from which he remakes the multiverse anew. Very cyclical I like it.
To Crag - while I agree with your thoughts overall, I humbly disagree with this part:
Crag wrote:
"...as an unmotivated unconscious reaction to make itself whole once again."
.....while Tharizdun isn't omnipotent, he is a god and an intelligent one, albeit hellbent on his own agenda to return the void to it's natural state; as he sees it. But never the less, I submit there is a seething, underlying dark reason here ...a purpose complete with a background crying to be fleshed out, however meager the results.
- Over all, we all agree regarding Tharizdun currently being what he is... "the personification of decay and entropy, the endless dark expanse of that cold vacuum called eternity, waiting to consume the existence of all things."
- However, for my campaign and my spin on him I wish to create an unrecorded historical background for him, although vague and then only remembered by certain entities; perhaps a few progenitor outsiders and primordial gods. I want to fathom out his beginnings, to provide an allusion of evolution from creator to un-creator rather than except the current view of him as merely being an impersonal force barely existing, culminating his end game without reason other than to fulfill an ultimate cycle. To me this makes him nothing more than an enigma or anomaly representing the end cycle of things to come rather than an eerie and all terrifying dark god that he should be.
- To me, he is more terrifying when I attempt to flesh out what he is ...and how he came to be what he is. I understand him to be truly insane, and hellbent on the undoing of all existence, possibly for horrific reasons older than his own insanity will allow him to remember. It could be that in his own mind, Tharizdun's motive is that he sees the undoing of all things as the only rational thing left in him; to control what he sees as an existence that has spiralled out of control. Existance itself has become abhorrent and un-natural well over a millennia ago, now long overdue to be set right again, becoming that which it was in the beginning.
- For me, providing some sort of history of reason serves to make him more credible in my mind. And far more threatening and terrifying. Because yes, he is committed to this inevitable end, regardless of all else ...as it must be.
To Mortellan - I like the idea of Corellon and Co. shaping Oerth to their own liking ...during the elves age of awakening. Preceded only by the primordial age and the age of creation already long in the past predating ancient history.
Personally, no, I wouldn't assume the elven gods are the oldest gods there are. I agree with Maldin's idea that there were many hundreds of generations of gods before any of the currently known ones, gods long forgotten by the present-day peoples of Oerth. I also like GV Dammerung's history that places the human and demihuman races as very young compared to the total life of the Oerth.
This is in line with Western (Greek/Roman) mythology. The Titans (Elder Gods) lived in a time before the Olympians. In a time before men (Elves, Dwarves, et al).
It was the Olympians (Zeus/Jupiter et al) that created the mortals (Men, Elves, Dwarves, etc.) not the Titans, nor the forerunners of the Titans. And, yes, there were Gods that lived before even the Titans; the Goddesses Night and Gaia, for example. However . . .
The Goddesses Night and Gaia still played a part after the arrival of the Olympians, even some Titans were allowed to remain (example; Hyperion), but, their roles were greatly reduced. They were numbered among the Lesser Gods, though that was not their original position in the Universe.
The same could hold true for the pantheons of Oerth. One or two "current" members of the given pantheon could be original members of the "Elder Gods," but their roles might now be reduced within the "modern" pantheon.
But, as already noted, most of the "Elder Gods" would be forgotten, thus, they are the "Elder Gods," the "Old Ones," etc.
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