1E Dieties and Demigods set up the following ground rules:
Demi-Gods can grant spells of up to 5th level
Lesser Gods can grant spells of up to 6th level
Greater Gods can grant spells of up to 7th level
I don't have 2E Legends and Lore but would like to hear from
somene who does...
In Iuz the Evil (2E), Iuz (Demi-god) can grant spells of up to 6th level, but only to priests on Oerth, thus setting up the rule that gods can grant spells of one level higher to preists on the god's home plane.
Somewhere along the line Intermediate Gods were introduced. Wikipedia says "The designation of "greater" vs. "intermediate" comes from the Greyhawk setting, and is not used in the Player's Handbook, but it is used in other v3.5 Edition materials."
Comes from the Greyhawk Setting? In the LGG most of the gods who were Lesser gods in WoG are listed as Intermediate.
Some questions:
1. What is 2E Legends and Lore take on Divine Rank and Clerical Max Spell Level?
2. When and where was the concept of Intermediate gods introduced?
3. If one plays with Intermediate diety rank, what does that do to priest spell level?
Possibility A
Greater God - Up to 7th Level
Intermediate God - Up to 6th Level
Lesser God - Up to 5th Level (demotion from 1E)
Demi-God - Up to 4th level (demotion from 1E)
Possibility B
Greater God - Up to 7th Level
Intermediate God AND Lesser God - Up to 6th Level
Demi-God - Up to 5th level
1. What is 2E Legends and Lore take on Divine Rank and Clerical Max Spell Level?
"A greater god can grant any power or spell of any level to his or her priests."
"Intermediate gods can grant any power that does not exceed their own powers, or spell of any level, to priests."
"Lesser gods can grant their worshipers any power that does not exceed their own powers, or spell of up to 6th level."
"Demigods can grant any power or spell of up to 5th level to their worshippers and priests."
Quote:
2. When and where was the concept of Intermediate gods introduced?
It was first introduced in 2e Legends Lore (1990). From the Ashes and Monster Mythology (both 1992) were probably the 2nd place. Earlier sources like Greyhawk Adventures (1988), Forgotten Realms Adventures (1990), and The Complete Priests' Handbook (1990) did not use it.
Quote:
3. If one plays with Intermediate diety rank, what does that do to priest spell level?
Any level, the same as greater deities.
Last edited by rasgon on Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
As usual, there was a Possibility C I hadn't considered!
So, if 2E Legends & Lore was the first use of Intermediate Powers, what are we to make of the Wikipedia quote that it "comes from the Greyhawk setting?"
What Wikipedia article claims that the concept of intermediate gods comes from the Greyhawk setting? Someone needs to edit that, because it's wrong. However, it's true that it appeared in Greyhawk before it appeared in Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance.
Wikipedia articles are always a little suspect, and D&D Wikipedia articles are particularly bad, since there are so few D&D Wikipedia editors and it's a subject lots of people think they know more about than they do.
When the concept was first introduced, in 2e Legends & Lore, a lot of formerly greater gods like Apollo or Set were given the rank. What happened was the rank of greater deity was now reserved for the heads of pantheons or creator gods (figures like Odin, Zeus, Hera, Gaea, Uranus, Chronus and the other 1st generation Titans), while gods who ruled over a major sphere of influence but were not the heads of pantheons or capable of creating worlds (like Apollo, Aphrodite, Ares, and so on) were intermediate. Effectively greater deities were divided into "greater deities" and "even better than that."
From the Ashes promoted many formerly lesser deities to intermediate status (the ones that Sargent rather arbitrarily thought were particularly important to the setting) while demoting many formerly greater deities at the same time. I always thought he should have done one or the other, but not both, because as it was it really distorted the 1st edition dynamic. Gods like Procan, Lendor, Ulaa, and Zilchus who were formerly greater gods were no reduced to the same level as Heironeous, Erythnul, and Ehlonna. I wouldn't have done it that way.
What Wikipedia article claims that the concept of intermediate gods comes from the Greyhawk setting? Someone needs to edit that, because it's wrong. However, it's true that it appeared in Greyhawk before it appeared in Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance.
Never mind, I found the article. It was this one. And I fixed it.
I think what the author was trying to say was that the concept of "intermediate gods" first appeared in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer in 3rd edition. It hadn't appeared before then in 3rd edition, although it was used later in 3rd edition Deities & Demigods.
The author wasn't even considering 2nd edition, which is where the confusion arose.
Yes, that article was what I was referencing while forgeting to link to.
rasgon wrote:
I think what the author was trying to say was that the concept of "intermediate gods" first appeared in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer in 3rd edition. It hadn't appeared before then in 3rd edition, although it was used later in 3rd edition Deities & Demigods.
The author isn't even considering 2nd edition, which is where the confusion arose.
Ah, I see.
rasgon wrote:
From the Ashes promoted many formerly lesser deities to intermediate status (the ones that Sargent rather arbitrarily thought were particularly important to the setting) while demoting many formerly greater deities at the same time. I always thought he should have done one or the other, but not both, because as it was it really distorted the 1st edition dynamic. Gods like Procan, Lendor, Ulaa, and Zilchus who were formerly greater gods were no reduced to the same level as Heironeous, Erythnul, and Ehlonna. I wouldn't have done it that way.
Once you said that Intermediate deities were roughly power-equivalent of greater deities, I realized that yes, lots of gods saw a significant promotion from WoG to FtA. So, how did this play out in LGG? Were Sargent's promotions and demotions carried forward untouched, or was there some more repositioning?
Were Sargent's promotions and demotions carried forward untouched, or was there some more repositioning?
The former. Sargent's positioning was carried forward to this day. The only wrinkle is that 3rd edition Deities and Demigods actually has a 20-level divine scale (while still using the demi-lesser-intermediate-greater system), so those deities who have been statted in that format have a finer level of distinction.
Were Sargent's promotions and demotions carried forward untouched, or was there some more repositioning?
The former. Sargent's positioning was carried forward to this day. The only wrinkle is that 3rd edition Deities and Demigods actually has a 20-level divine scale (while still using the demi-lesser-intermediate-greater system), so those deities who have been statted in that format have a finer level of distinction.
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