Time for another Lanthorn query. I think I've been a slacker lately, so gotta keep posting. Again, all edition responses are welcome, the reason I placed this thread on the main forum and not the 1e or 2e forums:
Does an undead creature with energy draining ability need to only KILL a person to have that victim rise as its undead spawn (by loss of hp from its damaging attack)?
Or does the undead monster have to slay the victim by reducing that person to 0 levels instead? It is possible to die from hp loss before losing all your XP levels, for example.
For how long will its energy draining attack work to effectively turn that victim into an undead monster (for instance, how fresh must the body be for the energy drain to 'work') before it becomes impossible?
Ex: A spectre kills a person with its chilling attack touch but doesn't reduce that person to 0 lvls. Does the hapless victim rise as a spectre as well? Or does the 'master' spectre have to continue grappling the now dead/dying person until it has completely reduced the near-corpse to 0 lvls?
I think rules questions are okay. I think nonGreyhawk is stuff like, "Let me tell you my opinions on abortion" or "Why is The Lion King in 3D?" or "Man oh man this day I'm having."
Greyhawk has undead in it, though, so asking about how undead work seems Greyhawk topic to me.
Anyway, to answer the question, the victim has to be fully drained before it rises as a spawn, at least in 3e. A vampire blugeoning you to death with a brick won't turn you into a new vamp.
However, previous editions sometimes simply used the word, "kill/killed/kills" when refering to such incidents. For example, the 2e MM's Wraith entry states:
"Any human killed by a wraith becomes a half-strength wraith under its control (e.g., a 10th-level fighter will become a 5 Hit Die wraith under the control of the wraith that slew him)."
The entry for Spectre, on the other hand, says it differently:
"The chilling touch of a spectre drains energy from living creatures. A successful attack inflicts 1-8 points of damage and drains two life energy levels from the victim. Any being totally drained of life energy by a spectre becomes a full-strength spectre under the control of the spectre which drained him."
Note that in both cases (I went back and read the wraith entry again), the victim is never afforded a saving throw vs. the energy drain. Therefore, it may have been assumed that any victim killed by such an undead would also have been drained of all levels. However, since each hit drains a level or more and does additional damage, it is most likely that the victim is killed before having all levels drained, unless that victim is of only first or second level.
So, I think you're going to have to make a judgement call on this one.
Since this is sort of an open discussion, for the sake of covering other editions, in 4e there is no level drain. The closest comparison is healing surge drain, which some undead have as a power. But it doesn't look like any undead spawn undead of their type by specifically killing a victim through healing surges. There may be others but wraiths and forsaken shells spawn undead by killing victims. It doesn't specify how, but given that these monsters attacks are "supernatural", you're not going to have a wraith or forsaken shell picking up a brick and bashing someone's head in, as Rasgon so eloquently put it. Wraiths don't have a healing surge draining attack, and not all of a forsaken shell's attacks drain healing surges. Vampire Lords on the other hand are the only undead in 4e that I know of which spawn another undead by killing a victim with a specific attack, in this case, blood drain, which is not a healing surge draining attack. The result of this is a Vampire Spawn. To create another Vampire Lord requires a ritual where a Vampire Lord and another creature mingle their blood, and the creature dies, rising from the grave as a Vampire Lord. Open Grave (the 4e splatbook covering undead) does say of life drain, that -
"When a living creature is drained to death by evil agencies, the husk of the body becomes a shell that is particularly susceptible to the influence of unlife. When an undead creature is responsible for draining the life force from a living creature, the creation of a new undead from the dead flesh is not assured, but the door is certainly open for unclean spirits to move into the recently evacuated house of the body."
So it leaves the door open for DM's to use their own discretion.
Thanks, M-S and Rasgon, for the votes of support. I have tried my best to follow the guidelines of the forums, and Cebrion has been good about keeping me 'honest' where various things go. It was my understanding that this forum is open to any and all things Greyhawk so long as it doesn't target any single edition (which I stated it did not).
At any rate, I read several different descriptions, as you did SirXaris (good to have you answering my posts, friend!), and hence, my query. In reading the 2e PH and DMG I am under the impression that energy draining undead (such as spectres, vampires, wraiths, and wights) have to drain your life essence completely (i.e. render you to 0 lvls or lower), which is different than killing you from the attack itself. I am also wondering what a 'time' element may be where a dead/dying person or fresh corpse can be drained by one of these undead to create a new spawn.
(As a house rule, my players/DM and I thought a saving throw vs. Death Magic should be allowed to avoid the draining attack)
thank you all, and I look forward to more responses,
At any rate, I read several different descriptions, as you did SirXaris (good to have you answering my posts, friend!),
My pleasure.
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...and hence, my query. In reading the 2e PH and DMG I am under the impression that energy draining undead (such as spectres, vampires, wraiths, and wights) have to drain your life essence completely (i.e. render you to 0 lvls or lower), which is different than killing you from the attack itself.
That interpretation seems a good one, specifically because it allows the DM an explaination as to why some bodies rise as undead when others do not. Thus, you can play it out in combat by making the undead focus on an already deceased body if you, ...I mean the undead, wants to create a spawn from its victim.
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I am also wondering what a 'time' element may be where a dead/dying person or fresh corpse can be drained by one of these undead to create a new spawn.
If no time period is given in the monster's description, I would suggest that you rule that it only takes a few rounds - say 1d4+2 or so. It seems the intent is for the newly risen spawn to immediately become a threat to the remaining PCs in that same battle. If you extend the time, this effect becomes much less likely. You may wish to extend the time period for some extremely powerful undead, though.
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(As a house rule, my players/DM and I thought a saving throw vs. Death Magic should be allowed to avoid the draining attack)
This is the case in 3rd Ed. and I think it is much more reasonable than the lack of any save in earlier editions. It is precisely this energy draining ability that has traditionally been the most feared aspect of any monster in D&D. My own players have always tended to fear level loss more than the death of a character.
Lanthorn: You will need to read the undead entries for the game edition, as there is no one way that it works. Those in 2E mostly state that a creature drained(i.e. being reduced below 0 HD/levels) will rise as that type of undead. In the case of 1E/2E Shadows though, being reduced to 0 Strength or 0 Hit Points will result in the target being turned into a Shadow.
Lanthorn wrote:
Ex: A spectre kills a person with its chilling attack touch but doesn't reduce that person to 0 lvls. Does the hapless victim rise as a spectre as well? Or does the 'master' spectre have to continue grappling the now dead/dying person until it has completely reduced the near-corpse to 0 lvls?
In most cases, all levels must be drained. Extraneous damage, in most cases, will not cause the target to rise as undead. You need to get to that below 0 Levels/0 Hit Dice plateau to activate the raising. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:52 pm; edited 9 times in total
Van Richten's Monster Hunter's Guide Volume One (for AD&D 2nd Edition) says that a vampire can create a new vamp either by killing it with its energy-draining power or by drinking all of the mortal's blood.
"If the victim's body is not properly destroyed, it arises as a vampire, under the control of the creature who killed it, on the second night following the burial."
This book also gives several other alternatives, including infecting a victim with vampiric saliva (which causes the victim to die of sudden heart failure several days later). There's also the creation of "vampiric brides," where the vampire feeds on its intended three times, then, after draining her almost completely, shares its own blood to create a supernatural bond.
Also, here's some quotes from the d20 SRD:
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Create Spawn (Su)
Any humanoid reduced to Strength 0 by a shadow becomes a shadow under the control of its killer within 1d4 rounds.
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Create Spawn (Su)
A humanoid or monstrous humanoid slain by a vampire’s energy drain rises as a vampire spawn 1d4 days after burial.
If the vampire instead drains the victim’s Constitution to 0 or lower, the victim returns as a spawn if it had 4 or less HD and as a vampire if it had 5 or more HD. In either case, the new vampire or spawn is under the command of the vampire that created it and remains enslaved until its master’s destruction. At any given time a vampire may have enslaved spawn totaling no more than twice its own Hit Dice; any spawn it creates that would exceed this limit are created as free-willed vampires or vampire spawn. A vampire that is enslaved may create and enslave spawn of its own, so a master vampire can control a number of lesser vampires in this fashion. A vampire may voluntarily free an enslaved spawn in order to enslave a new spawn, but once freed, a vampire or vampire spawn cannot be enslaved again.
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Create Spawn (Su)
Any humanoid slain by a wraith becomes a wraith in 1d4 rounds. Its body remains intact and inanimate, but its spirit is torn free from its corpse and transformed. Spawn are under the command of the wraith that created them and remain enslaved until its death. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life.
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Create Spawn (Su)
Any humanoid slain by a wight becomes a wight in 1d4 rounds. Spawn are under the command of the wight that created them and remain enslaved until its death. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life.
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Create Spawn (Su)
Any humanoid slain by a spectre becomes a spectre in 1d4 rounds. Spawn are under the command of the spectre that created them and remain enslaved until its death. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life.
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Create Spawn (Su)
Creatures killed by a mohrg rise after 1d4 days as zombies under the morhg’s control. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life.
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Ghoul Fever (Su)
Disease—bite, Fortitude DC 12, incubation period 1 day, damage 1d3 Con and 1d3 Dex. The save DC is Charisma-based.
An afflicted humanoid who dies of ghoul fever rises as a ghoul at the next midnight. A humanoid who becomes a ghoul in this way retains none of the abilities it possessed in life. It is not under the control of any other ghouls, but it hungers for the flesh of the living and behaves like a normal ghoul in all respects. A humanoid of 4 Hit Dice or more rises as a ghast, not a ghoul.
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Create Spawn (Su)
Any humanoid slain by a shadow of the void becomes a winterwight in 1d4 rounds. Winterwights are under the command of the shadow of the void that created them and remain enslaved until its death. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life, though they do possess general knowledge of the slain creature. This knowledge is used for evil purposes, if possible.
In most of these cases, the creature need only be killed by the undead creature, not specifically drained. Vampires and shadows seem to be the only creatures who specifically need to drain their victims. Most commonly their victims rise as undead in only 1d4 rounds, but vampires, ghouls, and mohrgs take longer.
Gentlemen, MUCH thanks for your diligent responses and great explanations. Rasgon, I have some access to Van Richten's Guides and need to delve into those tomes. I also appreciate the lengthy discussions you offered for the later editions. Ceb, as always, you are a wealth of 1e and 2e information. SirXaris, much obliged as well.
If memory serves me, in 2e, the newly formed undead rise in something like 2d4 days thereafter, rather than immediately. I specifically remember stumbling on that piece of information during a campaign with my cleric/fighter of Trithereon who is fighting a particularly potent cult of Nerull. We ran afoul of some wraiths who were slaying people left and right, and their souls were rising out of the dead husks. I recall reminding my DM (and often player) that it takes time (again, as per 2e). He acknowledged that and altered the outcome (but the soldiers were still killed, of course).
I know the undead spawn that will rise (fledglings) are at half strength with respect to the original monster. I am guessing this means with respect to HD only, but not necessarily damage attacks, AC, and energy draining effects. Or is this incorrect? I have painstakingly looked in my various sourcebooks as well as modules, and have only seen a few instances where such examples are given (such as Old Mother Grubb in the Greyhawk City boxed set, as she has MANY fledgling vamps at her disposal). What is the general consensus on this?
Much 'food for thought' you have all offered. Thanks again!
Yes many undead have different methods of infecting an individual. However, if you go by the level drain only version to create an undead a corpse will rarely rise as an undead. Because one might die from damage dice long before level drain has been completed.
I would use an alternate option if a character was being drained at time damage dice from same creature kills them the remaining levels are drained and the dead character has a chance of becoming rising again as an undead. Though if the character is raised I would have them start at the last level they were at before dieing.
So a death magic save is good for 1E or 2E but I would use a system shock roll. Still rare but at least level would not be a factor in the save to undeath.
If memory serves me, in 2e, the newly formed undead rise in something like 2d4 days thereafter, rather than immediately. I specifically remember stumbling on that piece of information during a campaign with my cleric/fighter of Trithereon who is fighting a particularly potent cult of Nerull. We ran afoul of some wraiths who were slaying people left and right, and their souls were rising out of the dead husks. I recall reminding my DM (and often player) that it takes time (again, as per 2e). He acknowledged that and altered the outcome (but the soldiers were still killed, of course).
Read the monster entries. Times vary from type to type of undead. Some victims go undead immediately(usually the incorporeal ones), some rise later on(usually the corporeal ones).
Lanthorn wrote:
I know the undead spawn that will rise (fledglings) are at half strength with respect to the original monster. I am guessing this means with respect to HD only, but not necessarily damage attacks, AC, and energy draining effects. Or is this incorrect?
Not true for 1E/2E. It varies by the type of undead. Read your monster entries again, as it explains which undead create half strength "fledglings", and which don't. Very few undead which can propagate create half strength "fledglings". And, check from edition to edition, as some things change notably between them.
Also note that the Ravenloft material is separate from the core rulebooks, and adds/alters things sometimes. Do not take them as an update to the core rules, but as variant(usually more detailed) rules for the undead. many people choose to use the Ravenloft rules for undead in their usual, non-Ravenloft oriented games anyways though(I own a few of the Van Richten's guides myself). _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Friend Argon, you are most welcome. You know how I love to post queries.
Master Cebrion, you had me doubting what I read, so I decided to delve into the tomes of knowledge, and this is what I unearthed:
In the 'old' DMG (1e), on page 119, it mentions that the character who is drained might become an undead creature of the same type as the monster who killed him/her (see Monster Manual, it notes). It then states that the lesser undead created are controlled by their creator, and DO have but half the hit dice of the original monster of the same type (it uses vamps as an example). There is no mention in this book about how long thereafter it takes for such a monster to be created.
However, in the 2e DMG, on pages 272-73, it DOES mention the 2d4 days that it takes for the slain character to rise as an undead creature (same as the slayer) that I recall reading.
I have always used the Van Richten's Guides as supplementary guides to enhance my campaigns. I wonder how many of you do likewise. I gather that these enhancements, such as age categories for vampires, are used mainly for Ravenloft as the Demi-Plane of Dread, and not necessarily for WoG. Does anyone know if these rules also apply for undead (and werebeasts) outside Ravenloft? Or is that merely the decision of the DM?
Lanthorn, if you can get ahold of it, you might also want to check out an article in Dragon # 336, "Birth of the Dead." It's mainly fluff, but I still liked its coverage of what conditions bring about the "birth" of particular types of undead.
Haha! I missed one bit. I had forgotten the 2E DMG gave a day count. The 2E DMG does say 2d4 days for slain individuals to rise from energy drain. Now, this is just in regard to energy-draining undead, which means wights, wraiths, specters, vampires, and whatever other non-standard undead are out there that have *level* draining capability. So, we go to the monster entries:
Wights: no time specified, so 2d4 days as per the 2E DMG; spawn are half strength until the master wight is killed.
Wraiths: no time specified, so 2d4 days as per the 2E DMG; spawn are half strength wraiths.
Specters: no time specified, so 2d4 days as per the 2E DMG; spawn are full strength.
Vampires: contrary to the 2E DMG, vampires transform 1 day after the burial, so 1 day to whenever(I will assume the body doesn't corrupt all that quickly, meaning that would be sign of something not being quite right too, if the body were left laying around for a while in the wild somewhere); no quality mentioned for spawn, so half-strength as per the 2E DMG.
Note that "energy drain" in 2E only means attacks that drain experience levels, not those which drain Strength, Wisdom, etc. For instance, a victim of a Shadow's Strength drain will immediately become a Shadow upon being drained to 0 Strength. No time delay is mentioned for Ghouls/Ghasts at all either. These lesser undead are not quite as dangerous as those that truly drain energy levels, but it is worth mentioning them.
In 1E, fighting draining undead could be nasty, as killed individuals would rise immediately in most cases as there is no time delay. 1E doesn't apply to your 2E bent though, so it is not really a reference point in the case of a 2E ruling, as every game edition is self-contained.
Some people like the extra detail of the Van Richten's guides, simply because they have more detailed questions about how things work in the case of the various kinds of undead which are covered in a bare bones fashion by the DMG/Monstrous Compendiums. For instance, some DMs might not be all that keen on the insta-Ghoul thing, and so want something a bit different(i.e. more detailed). By the time the Van Richten's Guides began to come out, there were a lot of other variant undead added to the mix too, and I think most of them are covered in the series. 3E+ handles this issue the best of any edition, in my opinion, with its very clearly defined and self-contained monster entry rules. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:08 am; edited 1 time in total
I wonder why spectres are the only undead mentioned that generate full-strength spawn...perhaps an oversight?
I've always feared and hated the energy draining abilities of the greater undead. Skeletons and zombies are bad enough. But losing levels is utterly devastating, especially to higher level PCs!
Much thanks to all who responded and added to my thread. BTW, Ceb, I think you meant 2-8 days instead of 2-4 days (2d4 days). Minor point. Personally, I like the Van Richten's Guides, but never quite sure how much to borrow and infuse into my WoG games. I guess that's personal style, but I find myself using them as great reference sources. Thank you for your detailed reply.
If anyone has anything else to add to this topic, please feel free to do so. I enjoy hearing from all sides of the edition equation.
I've always feared and hated the energy draining abilities of the greater undead . . . losing levels is utterly devastating, especially to higher level PCs!
Does a great deal to quash over inflated egos though, doesn't it?
Well, Fighter, you used to be 13th level, now . . .
Yeah, M-S, wicked indeed! I cannot begin to fathom how horrid an experience it would be to suffer such an attack. It must be akin, but worse, than the most painful migraine imaginable, as your very memories, skills, and life force are sucked from your body and mind.
Of all the creatures I've experienced as a gamer (that includes a good many over the many decades, mind you!), the greater undead and fiends are the most vile of all...
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I had forgotten the 2E DMG gave a day count. The 2E DMG does say 2d4 days for slain individuals to rise from energy drain. Now, this is just in regard to energy-draining undead, which means wights, wraiths, specters, vampires, and whatever other non-standard undead are out there that have *level* draining capability. So, we go to the monster entries: