I have lately been considering building a comprehensive timeline for Greyhawk. I know others have worked on projects like this, and I am curious as to how complete these works are, and if there is interest. My plan is to build the timeline in EXCEL , and use VBA code to make it searchable via queries. Thus if someone just wanted to look up Nyrondese history, they would receive an output customized to their request.
If there is interest, and I am not simply replicating others work, I will lay out more specifics later.
This would be great. I've got a lot of timeline data, which I just don't have the time to put together in a nice viewable format. You're welcome to it, although quite a few of the dates are assumed based on the info given. Most of it is in html format. PM me if you're interested and I can email it to you.
This is how I plan to organize the data in the database. Events will be entered with the date on which they occurred down to the day as possible. I will build a calendar conversion module into the program for these purposes, allowing dates to be input directly in whichever calendar they are presented. Additionally, each event will have the following data appended to it to make searches more efficient:
Region (I plan on using these as described in The Adventure Begins).
Nation (This will also include woodlands, forests, etc…).
Category (Political, Military, Adventures, Economic, Religious, Magic, Exploration, etc…) [2 or three per event possible]
Conflicts (conflicting dates or events in canon)
Tags (specific tags such as Iuz, Fall of Tenh, Great Migrations, etc.)
Canon (yes or no)
Any suggestions or advice on this would be greatly appreciated.
Smillan, thanks for the offer, once I finish beta testing the search and loading functions, I can use the data.
This is how I plan to organize the data in the database. Events will be entered with the date on which they occurred down to the day as possible. I will build a calendar conversion module into the program for these purposes, allowing dates to be input directly in whichever calendar they are presented.
Conflicts (conflicting dates or events in canon)
I too have a sizable amount of data compiled on this in excel as well, though I am intrigued to your approach (mine was more of a graphical time line)
The biggest hurtle I found was around the date errors and then determining which would be canon and which would be questionable. I abandoned this as a submission as there are many inconsistencies and felt my time better spent in other areas. I do however have a great deal of the language history resolved and with plans to submit end of month. happy to toss what I have in for you to cannibalize.
I would also advise a spot for source reference
Thank you for the offer; in the next week or so I hope to start the beta version of the loader. As for sourcing, I plan for that to be an integral part of whatever output is generated by a search, though not searchable itself (except as far as using canon/non-canon as a search criteria).
I agree with my fellow noteworthies that you would be performing a most excellent service in providing a timeline. I tried to do the best that I could, especially with respect to major events pre and during the Greyhawk Wars, and, like you, found several inconsistencies between and among my own sources. Others were just plain vague. The resulting information I have put together is extremely basic, so I think that most people would be elated if you made a comprehensive timeline. I could offer what basic details I have cross-referenced from my own reference materials. I think that if others did the same that it would perhaps make your own seemingly Herculean task much more manageable.
This is how I plan to organize the data in the database. Events will be entered with the date on which they occurred down to the day as possible. I will build a calendar conversion module into the program for these purposes, allowing dates to be input directly in whichever calendar they are presented. Additionally, each event will have the following data appended to it to make searches more efficient:
Region (I plan on using these as described in The Adventure Begins).
Nation (This will also include woodlands, forests, etc…).
Category (Political, Military, Adventures, Economic, Religious, Magic, Exploration, etc…) [2 or three per event possible]
Conflicts (conflicting dates or events in canon)
Tags (specific tags such as Iuz, Fall of Tenh, Great Migrations, etc.)
Canon (yes or no)
Any suggestions or advice on this would be greatly appreciated.
Smillan, thanks for the offer, once I finish beta testing the search and loading functions, I can use the data.
I would suggest adding Source as well. Whatever that may be: A hardcover, a module, Dragon magazine, etc.
As for Canon, based on what I've gathered from the past few years hanging out in the Thursday night chat, the definition of "Canon" seems to vary with the individual in many cases. Living Greyhawk is a good example: Some say it is canon, others say not. In fact, I think there may be a thread somewhere in this site with opinions on what is canon or not.
Thank you as well for you offer of assistance. Once I get the beta version of the loader and the search engine constructed, I'll load some sample data and post it for everyone to play with. I have still not figured out how to make it a collaborative effort without innumerable entry repetitions and causing myself a huge headache.
As far as defining canon and conflicts, I was going to consider everything published in regular products, [/i]Dungeon, and Dragon as canon. There are still conflicts within this, but I plan to simply record all and note the conflicts (that will be its own column). Has anyone mentioned or established differing grades of canon? I might further break the canon/non-canon category into: canon, OJ, LG Gazetteer, LG articles, etc, but any suggestions are welcomed.
Thank you as well for you offer of assistance. Once I get the beta version of the loader and the search engine constructed, I'll load some sample data and post it for everyone to play with. I have still not figured out how to make it a collaborative effort without innumerable entry repetitions and causing myself a huge headache.
As far as defining canon and conflicts, I was going to consider everything published in regular products, [/i]Dungeon, and Dragon as canon. There are still conflicts within this, but I plan to simply record all and note the conflicts (that will be its own column). Has anyone mentioned or established differing grades of canon? I might further break the canon/non-canon category into: canon, OJ, LG Gazetteer, LG articles, etc, but any suggestions are welcomed.
I don't believe that there's really anything like "differing grades" when it comes to canon. It's either canon or it isn't.
When it comes to conflicts, the general rule of thumb is that newer products supersede older ones. This isn't a hard, fast rule, though--there are plenty of exceptions. Sometimes newer stuff is ruled non-canon by the publisher (the only example I can think of is from Ravenloft: two novels were declared non-canon by the "Kargat" staff at TSR in charge of making the game products). I don't know of this being done for Greyhawk, but I do think attempts have been made to correct Carl Sargent's errors.
Some of the post-Gygax 1st-edition Greyhawk modules were deemed non-canonical. Castle Greyhawk (which was superseded by Greyhawk Ruins), definitely, and Child's Play (which took place in a kingdom never mentioned before or since). All of Rose Estes' novels. The bit in Fate of Istus about the Scarlet Brotherhood being taught martial arts by monks from Kara-Tur was wiped from the canon. Puppets and Gargoyle are generally hated on, but I don't think there was really enough Greyhawk content in either of them to be worth decanonizing.
The 2nd edition era was much better. I don't think Sargent made many mistakes, except for the bit in Ivid the Undying about the Thillonrian barbarians being Flan (which was deliberate, I think, rather than an era).
In 1998 there was an official Greyhawk team at WotC that laboriously collected Greyhawk canon together and decided what went and what stayed. Then after 3rd edition WotC adopted a new policy where only the contents of the D&D Gazetteer (the "lite" version of the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer) and the gods info in the Player's Handbook were to be considered canon for subsequent 3rd edition modules and products, with everything else optional and up to the individual designer's discretion.
But at the same time, the Living Greyhawk campaign was in full swing, and it had its own official status and its own carefully defined canon, which was the 1998 canon plus the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, Living Greyhawk Journals, and whatever the various triads came up with.
And at the same time, Paizo's Dungeon and Dragon magazines were developing their own version of Greyhawk canon based on the adventures and adventure paths in Dungeon, mostly, plus the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, Living Greyhawk Journals, and the Living Greyhawk modules that Erik Mona had written, but not including any of the other Living Greyhawk modules, which they didn't really have the rights to or the time to coordinate with. Meanwhile, the Living Greyhawk campaign was already starting to diverge from what Paizo was doing. So for example there's a Living Greyhawk version of Evard and a Paizo version of Evard. The Paizo canon was used in WotC books that the Paizo editors wrote, like Fiendish Codex I and Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk.
Anyway, there are very much different flavors of canon.
Some of the post-Gygax 1st-edition Greyhawk modules were deemed non-canonical. Castle Greyhawk (which was superseded by Greyhawk Ruins), definitely, and Child's Play (which took place in a kingdom never mentioned before or since). All of Rose Estes' novels. The bit in Fate of Istus about the Scarlet Brotherhood being taught martial arts by monks from Kara-Tur was wiped from the canon. Puppets and Gargoyle are generally hated on, but I don't think there was really enough Greyhawk content in either of them to be worth decanonizing.
Oh yeah, I had forgotten about that stuff (with good reason! )
rasgon wrote:
The 2nd edition era was much better. I don't think Sargent made many mistakes, except for the bit in Ivid the Undying about the Thillonrian barbarians being Flan (which was deliberate, I think, rather than an era).
Didn't he also make some errors in regards to Prince Thrommel, Castle Hart, Tzunk/Yagrax, and The Scarlet Brotherhood worshiping Tharizdun?
rasgon wrote:
In 1998 there was an official Greyhawk team at WotC that laboriously collected Greyhawk canon together and decided what went and what stayed. Then after 3rd edition WotC adopted a new policy where only the contents of the D&D Gazetteer (the "lite" version of the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer) and the gods info in the Player's Handbook were to be considered canon for subsequent 3rd edition modules and products, with everything else optional and up to the individual designer's discretion.
But at the same time, the Living Greyhawk campaign was in full swing, and it had its own official status and its own carefully defined canon, which was the 1998 canon plus the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, Living Greyhawk Journals, and whatever the various triads came up with.
And at the same time, Paizo's Dungeon and Dragon magazines were developing their own version of Greyhawk canon based on the adventures and adventure paths in Dungeon, mostly, plus the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, Living Greyhawk Journals, and the Living Greyhawk modules that Erik Mona had written, but not including any of the other Living Greyhawk modules, which they didn't really have the rights to or the time to coordinate with. Meanwhile, the Living Greyhawk campaign was already starting to diverge from what Paizo was doing. So for example there's a Living Greyhawk version of Evard and a Paizo version of Evard. The Paizo canon was used in WotC books that the Paizo editors wrote, like Fiendish Codex I and Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk.
Anyway, there are very much different flavors of canon.
Oh wow, that's way more complicated than I thought. Much more so than other settings.
Didn't he also make some errors in regards to Prince Thrommel, Castle Hart, Tzunk/Yagrax, and The Scarlet Brotherhood worshiping Tharizdun?
Hm. Yeah, I guess so on the Thrommel thing. Treating the Provost and the Prince as separate people seems eminently ignorable, since it amounts to only a single line in From the Ashes (Page 6: "When the Provost of Veluna disappeared also.."). I'm not sure why he was renamed Avras in The Marklands, but I have a feeling it was on purpose, to distinguish him from Thrommel I. His full name could be Avras Thrommel Fairwain. Or maybe he just mistakenly thought the prince didn't already have a name? I don't know.
Some people were concerned over the lack of mention of Castle Hart in Border Watch or The Marklands, which wasn't deliberate on Sargent's part and therefore qualifies as a mistake. Eric L. Boyd wrote a fan-document incorporating Castle Hart into the post-FTA continuity, but he mostly changed things mentioned in Castle Hart rather than things from subsequent products. For example: "According to "Hart", Castle Hart was garrisoned by more than 1,000 cavalrymen of which two hundred were elite Knights of Furyondy. Given that the original "World of Greyhawk" boxed set lists the total strength of this branch at 200 Knights, this figure is too high."
I don't really consider the other two things errors, though subsequent stuff did contradict it. The idea that the Scarlet Brotherhood served Tharizdun is from Gary Gygax's own novel Artifact of Evil. However, there's a lengthy debate on the subject in this thread, in which I argue against that interpretation.
Maldin makes the case against the identification of Tzunk with the Mage-Priest of the Isles of Woe here, but I think his errors were more grievous than Sargent's. First or second edition sources don't tell us who "Yagrax" might be. Sargent's interpretation of the Wizard-Priest as a figure made immortal by the Codex (which was one of the potential side-effects of the Codex in Eldritch Wizardry), who survived the destruction of the Isles and later invaded the City of Brass as an archmage was kind of a stretch, but not impossible and definitely deliberate on his part, not a misreading. It's not my preferred way to read the 1st edition DMG, though. You can, if you want, read a thread in which I totally flip out on Maldin for no good reason over our respective interpretations of the subject. I wish I'd been calmer, but there's clearly no way to avoid exclamation points when someone is mistakenly renaming legendary tombs. I'm sure you understand.
Currently, I think the fact that the Paizo map and the Living Greyhawk Campaign have officially renamed the Tomb of Tzunk's Hands as the Tomb of Yagrax's Hands now means it's even more likely that Tzunk and Yagrax are the same person, because otherwise why would the same tomb have two different names? Obviously, Yagrax adopted a new name later in life, possibly after his spirit possessed the hapless Tzunk and took over his body (which is something a slave of the Codex does in Dragon #203). If they'd left well enough alone, I think the preponderance of evidence would be on the side of Tzunk as an unrelated wizard who tried to conquer the City of Brass and ended up with his hands buried in the Barren Waste.
Puppets and Gargoyle are generally hated on, but I don't think there was really enough Greyhawk content in either of them to be worth decanonizing...
-FWIW, I accept Puppets and Gargoyle, except that I changed the halflings in Puppets to gnomes.
As for canon, Larrissa Hunter, the magister of Greyhawk by CY 591 (Slavers and Living Greyhawk IIRC) seems to be the Larissa of Puppets, and (in a source which I forget), she seems to have been married to the wizard (whose name I forget), and who has been kidnapped.
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