Apologies if this has been covered in a thread before but my search function seems to have a mind of its own at the moment.
I was checking a few things regarding the history of the Pomarj and I've found a bunch of dates from different sources that seem to conflict.
The timeline provided in the "Pomarj and Die" article in Dragon seems to prevent a different view of things to the account in "The Slavers" module and the LGG seems to throw a few more dates into the pot.
Is one source considered correct over the other?
At the moment I've tried to reconcile the two main sources as follows;
c.-524CY - A group of Oeridian settlers pre-dating the Migrations settles in the Drachensgrabs and establish a few small settlements. (Dragon)
c.-400CY - A small second wave of Oeridian settlers, this time part of the Migrations as well as a larger number of Suloise settlers arrive in the lands around the Drachensgrabs. A few settle in the actual hills and are absorbed by the existing Oeridians. They fall under the protection of the Prince of Ulek although he makes no real claim to the land. (The Slavers)
-324CY - Gnomes and Dwarves, sent by the Prince of Ulek, establish mines in the Drachensgrabs. (Dragon)
295CY or 350CY - Keoland & the Principality of Ulek claim the region and name it the Poor March establishing a number of minor baronies. (Dragon article has 350CY and the LGG 295CY for Keoish domination of the Pomarj)
c400CY - Some of the petty lords within the Hills start to break away from Keoish authority. Keoland does little in response as long as the wealth of the mines is still flowing towards their coffers. (The Slavers)
c.450CY - Baron Erkin, a petty lord from the Hills, makes a pact with the Earth Dragon for power. (The Slavers)
c.455CY - Baron Erkin has consilidated the settlements within the Hills and audaciously named himself King of the Drachensgrabs. (The Slavers)
461CY - The Principality of Ulek cedes from Keoland but retains its protectorate status of the Poor March, by now referred to as the Pomarj. (LGG)
- King Erkin is assasinate. His brother, Bretwala, succeeds him establishing a dynasty. Suderham is established during the reign of Bretwalda's son. (The SLavers)
463CY - Under the instigation of Count Veja the petty rulers of the Pomarj completely break from the shadow of the Principality of Ulek taking Highport as their 'capital' of sorts. Veja grows greedy and starts to claim the Pomarj as his Kingdom. (LGG - for the date, Dragon for the details of Veja)
503CY - Count Veja dies before his slow and gradual plans to turn the Pomarj into his Kingdom come to fruition. (Dragon)
510CY - King Olarek the Mad reigns in Suderham. (The Slavers)
513CY - Humanoids invade the Pomarj. King Olarek is slain in battle and the Kingdom of the Drachensgrabs is reduced to little more than the hidden city of Suderham under the rule of King Cedric, the son of Olarek. (LGG & The SLavers)
574CY - Stalmin Klim stages a coup, killing King Rodric of Suderham and ending the Dynasty of Bretwalda. (The Slavers)
If anyone has any thoughts or can see anything that really doesn't work then I'd appreciate the feedback.
Wolfling, forgive me, for my skill set is clearly not one of Oerth history. For this, I think you should beseech the wisdom of our resident Greysage, Rasgon.
However, I do recall somewhere reading, or hearing, that the humanoids of the Pomarj (originally called the "Poor March" when it was under human control) were driven to that region after they lost the Hateful Wars against the Celenian elves. They originated from the Lortmils, I think, but were flushed out. I hope that meager scrap of information is of some use or interest.
Thanks Lanthorn! I like the Hateful Wars, in so far that they serve as a reminder that whilst some demi-humans would like to place themselves on a pedestal above humankind they can also display the same genocidal qualities!
Thanks tarelton and thanks for the 578CY reference. The main clashing dates regard Keoland's intrusion into the area that will become the Poor March / Pomarj.
The LGG states 295CY for an invasion by Keoland and the Principality of Ulek whilst "See the Pomarj and DIe" in Dragon 167 claims that in 350CY the area is absorbed into the Empire of Keoland. There are only 55 years between the dates but both sources are very specific on the date.
I thought that maybe the take over could have taken that length of time but it is described in LGG as being over pretty quickly! 55 years doesn't seem too quick to me!. Perhaps the invasion started in 295CY but it took those 55 years before the region was fully consolidated and baronies established enough for the area to be considered fully absorbed into Keoland?
There must be a better way to rationalise the two dates?
I thought I'd pipe in on this one ... it's not that I know specifically that the dates are correct, or that they refer to the same thing; I just read the thread, and the 55-year thing stuck in my head.
I was reading the thread, and came up with the same conclusion as Wolfling, and then read his last post, and thought, "Oh, see. It does make sense." ... the only thing is, to me, the "long" time of 55 years makes perfect sense.
I'll try to draw some modern analogies, for sake of comparison. [Caveat: this is not intended as a discussion of modern politics, and I would ask readers to refrain from derailing this thread into parsing the examples given, they are for general comparison only, and as stated, the discussion has no intent whatsoever toward politics.]
Take, for example, Iraq. If we'd decided that when we invaded, we'd take it as a colony, how long would we s'pose that it would take before it was entirely "absorbed" into American culture? Even Hawaii has only bee a state for 54 years. Granted, Hawaii's pretty melded into American Society ... but, have you ever been there, it's pretty friggin' different.
India is another example. They flourished under British rule. They actively participated in helping the British set up rulership, and were pleased with them. They took quickly to their language (ever heard an educated Indian speak? It's British English). They *liked* being conquered ... but, still the incorporation of Inida as British never passed the independant-territory phase.
Take now, the example of Puerto Rico. It's inhabitants first became citizens in 1917. But, it's only been since '48 and '52 that they had a Governor and Constitution. They're a Commonwealth. Last year there was a non-binding referendum that the majority of Perto Ricans said they didn't want to be a US Territory anymore, and even more said they wanted the option to be Statehood. So, think if we'd invaded them back in 1917 ... that'd be just about 100 years since they were "absorbed" into the US.
Now, imagine that it's not just cultural issues. Throw whole other races into the mix. I'm not talking about modern racism here ... I'm just talking about the differences between elves and dwarves; between orcs and centaurs. How much longer do you think that would make it take?
So, while Yes, some invasions happen quickly, I don't think that it's necessarily that "absorbtion" happens as quickly. Perhaps the natives are not content with it, there are insurgents, there's no political pressure and everyone's content with a seperate entitiy, it's too far away to control directly, what have you. There's some cases that it goes "quickly", others, it takes generations. (Again, how fast would Iraq be accepted?) I personally think that 50 years isnt' so long at all for entire concepts to be completely over-turned. _________________ Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com<div>Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal</div><div>Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com</div>
The settled peoples of the Pomarj prior to the Ulek/Keolandish invasion were Suel (as opposed to the indigeous Flan hill people) and may have entered the Flanaess at the same time as Keoland's ruling houses through Slerotin's tunnel. I can't see the population of the Pomarj being all that distinct from the population of Keoland in either culture or ethnicity. I'm thinking UK vs. Australia.
An interesting conjecture: What did the pre-invasion populace speak? The Pomarj was very isolated from Aerdi, so probably Common was not the language of the home. An archaic form of Ancient Suel? A dialect that evolved in parallel with Keolandish? Is accented Keolandish the language of humanity in the modern Pomarj?
You're right Icarus, there is a definite distinction between the official opinion of Keoland that the Drachensgrab area is part of their Empire and the reality of that fact. I mean in canon there seems ot be a number of incidents of nations in the Sheldomar region and just outside stating a state of political identity and Keoland actually recognising that. As a nation they seemed a little blinkered.
The 295CY date could then refer to the Keoish invasion which met little resistance. It would take a little time to split up the land into petty baronies with political redtape and vying amongst the lesser nobles for some time. Then they have to get there and assert their authority, miles from the Keoish heartland on an existing free-spirited population.
Going by the wording of the Dragon article, 350CY could then refer to the date that the Poor March was offically recognised as its own porvince. Perhaps prior to that being an extension of the Principality of Ulek.
Raphael - the Suel identity of the pre-Pomarj settlers was established in LGG but the two other main sources (The Slavers & Dragon 167) throw the Oeridians into the melting pot as settlers many years before the arrival of the Suel as well as additional Oeridian settlers along with the Suel. I'd invision them speaking an Oeridian tribal language primarily. I've surmised from the some lines in the source material that those settlers in the second wave of migrants that enterred the Drachensgrabs were absorbed into the existing Oeridian settlements. Others settled in the coastal lowlands.
It's possible therefore that in the Hills an Old Oeridian tribal tongue was primarily spoken whilst the Suloise language predominated in the lowlands? With the trade routes that fed the coastal cities and the many people the gradual inhabited the Wild Coast Common could have arrisen pretty quickly as the primary language of the Pomarj.
The arrival of the Keoish petty lords might have brought the Keoish tongue into the mixing pot? Was Keolandish the offical language of the Keoish Court and of the nobles or was it more prevalent in the rural areas and commonfolk? Either way with it's similarities to Old Oeridian with Suel and Flan influences maybe it or a slightly accented version of Keolandish would make the most sense for the earlier days of the Pomarj? Suderham was pretty isolated over the years so whatever the population there spoke it would likely not be Common.
Interestingly (to me, anyway), the players in my campaign are just now embarking on a mission to stop Blidg Fanger's deprivations along the Wild Coast. It's 577 CY in my campaign.
As for the discrepancy between my article and the LGG, bear in mind that the latter was written far before the former, and is "unofficial" according to the preface. So in any dispute between the two, the LGG (or any other canon reference) takes precedence.
Thanks for the input GG, especially as you wrote the Dragon article!
I really liked your article so I figured that if I could get all the source material to mesh that would be even better!
I agree with Icarus and BlueWitch that those 55 years of gap make good sense, more sense in fact!
The only other main discrepacy in the dates was the Pomarj's separation from Keoland but that's easilly explained also. I'd imagine the Poor Marchers, ever a fractious bunch wouldn't split away in unison, instead one by one different petty lords would wash their hands of Keoish rule, starting with the Suderhamers but culminating in Count Veja rallying the coastal lords into a more organised revolt.
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