Fred Weining in his Oerth Journal article hints that the Aerdi conquest of Blackmoor occurs prior to the year 1 CY. And yet we know from the LGG that the Great Kingdom takes control of the Quaglands during the period 97-100 CY. It is also stated that Blackmoor was already occupied by the Great Kingdom by 100, when the Viceroyalty of Ferrond was declared (as we know that a cartographical error occurred leaving Blackmoor out).
I'm trying to reconcile the conquest of Blackmoor with the conquest of the Quaglands. Could the Great Kingdom have really spaced the two conquests out by a period of more than 100 years? Why would the GK seize remote, impoverished Blackmoor, pouring funds into construction projects there, while ignoring the closer and more resource-rich Quaglands?
Does it make sense? Or did Mr. Weining and Mr. Mona perhaps not consider the seeming inconsistency. Personally I would date the conquest of Blackmoor after the conquest of the Quaglands. As in, during the Quagland campaign of 97-100 CY, an army is detached and ordered to cross the Cold Marshes and take over the independent Oeridian fiefs there, in time for the coronation of Viceroy by the fall of 100 CY.
...I'm trying to reconcile the conquest of Blackmoor with the conquest of the Quaglands. Could the Great Kingdom have really spaced the two conquests out by a period of more than 100 years? Why would the GK seize remote, impoverished Blackmoor, pouring funds into construction projects there, while ignoring the closer and more resource-rich Quaglands?
-I don't have that source (one more thing to buy someday; sigh!), and I haven't thought about it, but either:
1) Blackmoor was an easier target for conquest (if it was simple "imperialism"). Most of Blackmoor is, well, moorland, but the inhabitants may have been magically and/or technologically backward, compared to the Quaglanders, to make it easier, or just not as militarily competent;
2) Blackmoor may have instigated something with the Great Kingdom, provoking the conquest, long before the Quag area did. Raids would be the obvious thing.
One can assume the Aerdi were interested in the same thing that brings everyone to Blackmoor: Oerthmagic.
Also, like James said, Blackmoor was a MUCH easier target. The only organized resistance came from one Lich Lord. Undead despots aren't known for inspiring loyalty in their human subjects. Comparatively, the entire LGG description of Perrenland stresses how "fiercely independent" the Quaglanders were.
The Northern Reaches were always of hotbed of Aerdi resistance and it took them a long time to establish piecemeal control. Tenh was never conquered, although the Duke pledged fealty (in name only) in -110CY. One hundred years later Blackmoor joined the fold. It was another hundred years before the most rebellious Quaglanders fell into line. Meanwhile the Rovers of the Barrens and elves of the Fellreev were never subjected and doubtless did much to destabilize the region. Despite the seeming field gains, the Northern Reaches remained a "lawless, bandit-ridden refuge of amoral nobles wishing to escape the gaze of Rauxes and Dyvers" (LGG 62).
If we assume that the pattern of Aerdi expansion was centrally directed and controlled from Rauxes, than the timeline Raphael presents us with runs into some issues. However, if Aerdi expansion was more locally-driven and opportunistic, than it is very likely that a marcher lord or adventurer might lead a band into Blackmoor and take it over in the name of Aerdi in order to add a patina of legitimacy to his actions.
A great example if this the Aerdi "conquest" of Greyhawk. Maret Nial was a discharged officer who marched a band of mercenaries through the Cairn Hills and "conquered" Greyhawk on his own, claiming it for Aerdi in order to solidify his claim (The Adventure Begins page 57).
If we assume that the pattern of Aerdi expansion was centrally directed and controlled from Rauxes, than the timeline Raphael presents us with runs into some issues. However, if Aerdi expansion was more locally-driven and opportunistic, than it is very likely that a marcher lord or adventurer might lead a band into Blackmoor and take it over in the name of Aerdi in order to add a patina of legitimacy to his actions...
-That's sort of where I was going; either a) opportunism or b) or in reaction/retaliation to something local.
A great example if this the Aerdi "conquest" of Greyhawk. Maret Nial was a discharged officer who marched a band of mercenaries through the Cairn Hills and "conquered" Greyhawk on his own, claiming it for Aerdi in order to solidify his claim (The Adventure Begins page 57).
Good point Tarelton. Nial claimed Greyhawk for the Great Kingdom in 4 CY according to the The Adventure Begins. Weining has it that Blackmoor had already succumbed to an Aerdi conquest before 1 CY, but the LGG tells us Perrenland wasn't conquered until 100 CY. The Adventure Begins describes how Greyhawk became a hub of trade for the Aerdi ports on the eastern Nyr Dyv, but we know from the LGG that the Urnst states remained independent for hundreds of years after the incorporation of GH into the GK. What ports is TAB referring to? Bandit Kingdom ports? It's unlikely Redhand was the eastern expansion clearing house for all Aerdi forces into Ferrond and points beyond. Wasn't Stoink ("an Aerdi outpost") still a distant dream in the early first century?
I've gone through sources trying to find an official date for the conquest of Furyondy by Aerdi forces but there doesn't seem to be any clues whatsoever.
I think canon has two big problems with respect to a timeline of the expansion of Aerdy:
1. If Greyhawk is incorporated in 4 CY, then the County of Urnst has to go before that date. Radigast City is needed as a spring board for the conquest of the West. Or did Imperial forces sail the Selintan, arriving from the Solnor Ocean? TAB specifically contradicts that conjecture. And instead of sailing all the way around, why wouldn't the GK simply seize the County? They had a century to recover from incorporating Nyrond at that point.
2. A pre 1 CY date of incorporation for Blackmoor seems an impossibility. The Great Kingdom was a land power, and land powers grow their borders out and not add to their empires by cherry picking distant lands, like a sea power.
1. If Greyhawk is incorporated in 4 CY, then the County of Urnst has to go before that date. Radigast City is needed as a spring board for the conquest of the West. Or did Imperial forces sail the Selintan, arriving from the Solnor Ocean?
Greyhawk wasn't invaded by imperial forces; it was invaded by a group of mercenaries working on their own. Maret Nial and his troops crossed over the Cairn Hills from Nehrond. The Adventure Begins claims that the Aerdi province of Nehrond reached the Cairn Hills at the time, but the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer assures us that the Duchy of Urnst was still an independent state. It sounds like they must have started from Seltaren or even Castle Maure, but if they started in Nehrond then they must've been further east, crossing over the Kingdom of Urnst to grab the more vulnerable lands further west.
Quote:
And instead of sailing all the way around, why wouldn't the GK simply seize the County?
The Great Kingdom wasn't making the decisions. This was an independent venture. Maret Nial didn't have the resources to seize the County, but he did have the resources to seize Greyhawk.
Last edited by rasgon on Mon May 13, 2013 7:02 pm; edited 3 times in total
Could the Great Kingdom have really spaced the two conquests out by a period of more than 100 years?
No, they waited more than 100 years to declare it a viceroyalty. I think it's safe to assume that Ferrond was conquered before that, but administered differently, possibly by military commanders demanding tribute from the already extant local lords. In approximately 100 CY, shortly after the final eradication of Perrenland's remaining cells of resistance, Overking Manshen dispensed with the previous rulers and gave the province to one of his cousins or allies as a gift, forgetting to give him Blackmoor as well.
Oerth Journal #5 indicates that Ranial the Gaunt was defeated in approximately -20 CY ("in the decades immediately preceding the institution of Overking"), and this is when the baron of Blackmoor submitted to the Aerdi general. The Living Greyhawk Journal is almost word for word the same, but briefer and this event is undated there. Probably the Aerdi armies had well-established bases in Ferrond to the south, but they didn't necessarily dominate the whole thing. Prior to the final conquest of Perrenland, the supply roads probably ran from Ferrond through what is now Iuz's realm, avoiding the Vesve Forest and the forboding Yatils. It wouldn't be surprising if the Quaglands, sheltered by the mountains, took longer to conquer than Blackmoor did. Assume the Aerdi roads bent east of Whyestil Lake. The Quaglands would quite sensibly be the very last lands that Aerdi conquered.
jamesdglick wrote:
-I don't have that source (one more thing to buy someday; sigh!)
Which source don't you have, the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer or Oerth Journal #5? If it's the latter, it's a free fanzine you can download here.
Mystic-Scholar wrote:
Of course, it's also possible that the one author failed to take into consideration what the previous author had already written!
The same author wrote both the Blackmoor entry for the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer and Oerth Journal #5, which is why the histories of both are more or less identical.
A pre 1 CY date of incorporation for Blackmoor seems an impossibility. The Great Kingdom was a land power, and land powers grow their borders out and not add to their empires by cherry picking distant lands, like a sea power.
The problem is you're looking at Blackmoor as just another chunk of land on an empire's checklist. In this case, you're right - it has no conventional resources or strategic importance. The know the old "it's magic!" explanation is a cop out, but for Blackmoor it makes sense. In a fantasy world, magic is a resource. With this in mind, Blackmoor goes from being a poor backwater to one of the most valuable commodities on Oerth, at least to those who know its secrets: mysterious standing stones, the Comeback Inn, the Egg of Coot, the City of the Gods, Wastrian temples, the Land of Black Ice, artifacts of the Ur-Flan and Northern Adepts, etc. Some of these didn't exist pre-CY, but you get the idea.
Also remember the Ur-Flan were still a threat at the dawn of the GK. In -108CY they tried to assassinate the King of the Aerdy. Maybe the Aerdy conquered Blackmoor in -20CY to stamp out the last vestiges of Ur-Flan resistance. Maybe Ranial the Gaunt had WMDs. Maybe the Aerdy battle mages saw Blackmoor's magic as too dangerous to fall into the wrong hands. Maybe Blackmoor's conquest was the pet project of some rich price who went on to develop one of the artifacts described in Ivid. Rauxes was once the spelljamming capital of Oerth, maybe that helped. Maybe they did teleport.
Trying to force the Great Kingdom's expansion into a linear series of conquests based on each land's distance from the capital is incredibly boring. It's not even realistic. Invent reasons for each land's conquest besides acreage, proximity, and fertility and GH has a lot more depth. Suddenly Urnst becomes a powerful rival second only to Keoland. As for their lengthy independence, maybe Urnst was a valuable military ally, doing the Aerdy's bidding to avoid absorption. Maybe they were crafty negotiators. Maybe the Bright Desert dervishes and Abbor-Alz barbarians were more powerful then and the GK wanted a buffer. Maybe the GK feared the Maure or the elves of the Celedon. Maybe the GK preferred to use Urnst as a Rhennee dumping ground.
Raphael wrote:
The GK apparently controlled both Ferrond and Blackmoor militarily;
How did they get there? The lands north of the Nyr Dyv are pretty wild even in the 570s. They must have been absolute wilderness prior to -20 CY.
You're talking about the Ellis Island of the Oeridian migrations. These lands might have a had a Wild West vibe, but they were settled long before the eastern Flanaess. We only know that the Northern Reaches were lawless under the under the rule of Viceroyalty of Ferrond, post 1CY. Before that, they could have been more civilized. Also, we barely know anything about the history north or east of the Shield Lands (i.e. the Bandit Kingdoms) since they were roped into Iuz's chapter in the LGG.
With this in mind, Blackmoor goes from being a poor backwater to one of the most valuable commodities on Oerth, at least to those who know its secrets: mysterious standing stones, the Comeback Inn, the Egg of Coot, the City of the Gods, Wastrian temples, the Land of Black Ice, artifacts of the Ur-Flan and Northern Adepts, etc.
Darn! I so want to adventure there. You make it sound so awesome.
Naval expedition. If the land of Black Ice wasn't known at that time to be a full-stop preventive of sailing back to the west, a good size fleet could have been sent to try and find a northern passage for trade. Instead they find the land of the weird and powerful that is Blackmoor and occupy it. From there, exploration of the Land of Black Ice, the Burneal Forest, and Blackmoor itself becomes possible.
If the Sea Barbarians from LGG passed on the stories of their discovery of the Egg and the City of the Gods to their eastern cousins that might have been enough to attract the attention of the mages in Rauxes. Especially if some interesting bit of physical proof had made it's way along with the stories.
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