When I really got into DnD, I ended up getting into the Forgotten Realms, even though I started in Greyhawk. The stories of the FR sucked me in, but I was very frustrated by the chaotic and non-logical flow of everything. The thing that really defined it for me was the unorganized pantheons. They just didn't make sense! It was just a bunch of random gods and goddesses that battled it out.
So, with that in mind, I've been digging back into the Greyhawk dieties. I know all the main ones a bit, but I wanted to look at things from a cultural standing. That's important to me. I know the whole migration patterns and cultural norms of each of the human sub-races, but I wanted to look at it through the lens of the pantheons.
NOTICE: I just want to include Lesser or Above and non-regional gods. Also, there are independant gods that have sprung up and mingled between the cultures, but they aren't really part of the overall cultures, themselves.
FLAN
Straight off the bat, I notice the power levels of these gods. There are 4 Greater Gods, 1 Intermediate, and 5 Lesser. That's not a lot in the middle! So, a few really powerful top gods and then some minor ones. Also, the pantheon is a lot smaller than the other cultures.
Next, there are only two gods that are not Neutral in one regard or another. One is Greater and the other Lesser. Both are LG. So, overall, there is a sense of balance within the culture, with the exception of the lawful society for the betterment of all. This goes along with the sense of nature prevelant with Flan culture. Almost all the gods have some sense of nature in them, with the excpetion of Allitur (Ethics) and Zodal (Mercy and Hope).
What I notice missing is any real War god. I think that fits in with the cultural references that say the Flan weren't warlike. There is also no Merchant god, either.
I think the pantheon works, especially for a nature loving culture that never built up urban areas. The only exception that I can see is Allitur as the god of Ethics and Property. It seems counter-intuitive for the culture.
Oeridian
When I look at the list, I notice there are no Greater gods. Why is that? The only thing that I can gather from that is that there might be a culture bent to not place religion too high on the priority list.
Next, there are no real Nature gods. The Velari are more of a conglomeration of farming dieties, but not really Nature in it's own right. The others also deal more with occupations, such as sailors and miners. These are also the only non-destructive Chaotic gods. It seems like Nature is more a force that must be placated or reaped for your benefit.
Looking at the 8 Intermediate gods and you see 5 of them are Lawful! Only two are Chaotic. Procan is to be placated for your protection and profit while Erythnul is just self-destructive and shunned. There are rules to things and they need to be done in the proper way. Now this is a culture that creates the Great Kingdom!
What's missing? There is no Love god, or any god with positive emotions. Only Erythnul and Kurell have emotions, and they are both negative. Emotions aren't helpful and only get in the way. If you succumb to your emotions, you turn to the path of Evil and Chaos.
What is there with abundance? War and Violence. Erythnul and Hextor are the evil versions of violence. Sure, Erythnul isn't War anymore, but he's all about the violence. Heironeous is there to be the Good version of War. Good and Evil battle it out with lots of destruction.
Overall, I see a culture that is focused on getting things done. Emotions just get in the way. Nature is to be reaped (mining, fishing, or farming) or to be placated.
Suel
One Greater god, two Intermediate, fifteen Lesser, and a demi-god; lots of niches with the three greatest spots taken up by Magic, Time, and Strength. The only Greater God (Wee Jas) is more than just Magic. It’s Death and Law, as well and show how much Magic is tied into the overall society. Lendor is Time, Patience, and Study. Together they reflect the bookish nature of the Suel overall and the importance of a LN attitude. Kord is the rebel at CN and physical sports. He’s there for all the people who don’t fall under Wee Jas or Lendor.
Beyond that, the rest of the pantheon just seems to fill in the blanks. There are some aspects of Nature, even if they are split up enough and tend to have the occupational perspective. There is a nice blend of Law and Chaos. Neutral and Good are represented. Love, Luck, Nature, Farming, and Occupations. I think it works.
What about Evil? What shows up as the bad aspects of society? Or maybe the accepted aspects of that society? Beltar just shows someone left out in the cold. Syrul isn’t Chaotic, so not against the main thrust of this culture (Wee Jas), which means that lying and being deceitful isn’t an uncommon activity. Maybe plays into the more LN aspects of the culture. Pyremius isn’t Chaotic, either, which shows he’s not necessarily against Wee Jas (who is a Death god herself). So, maybe plotting and murder are an activity that happens often enough, as well. Overall, I don’t see much that is a big “boogey man” or anti-society figure. I do find that odd as the Suel are some of the cruelest cultures in the world. Then again, maybe it’s this lack of a real evil and a main goddess who can almost be evil herself that allows a certain coldness and treachery into things? It almost seems like a culture for and run by Lawyers…with the rest of the population living out their days staying out of the way.
Well, ran out of time for Baklunish. Sorry about that.
So, this is just my rambling to try to make sense of it all. Please help me out if I seem to have gotten something wrong. I'd love to be corrected.
I like your summary conclusions about the overall societies based upon their representative gods.
Let me remind you, however, that there were quite a few large Flan civilizations in the history of the Flanaess: Vecna's kingdom in the Sheldomar Valley, that of the Wizard-Priests on the Isles of Woe, Tzunk's kingdom, Keraptis' conquests, those of the Ur-Flannae, the Kingdom of Sulm, and the Kingdom of Ahlissa.
I note that all of those civilizations began as, or quickly turned to, evil (except that of Ahlissa). Perhaps that is why the Flan culture purposefully refuses to revere any god of war or advanced civilization. It seems that nearly all of their experiences with such societal issues have caused them more harm than good.
A nice interpretation. Thanks for writing that.
The way I look at the gods being divided by cultural groups, for the most part, is the same way I look at racial descriptions; they're for areas that are pure examples of that culture, which for the most part don't exist anymore, so I guess you could say I view them as a starting point for what I make the gods into. Not sure if that makes sense. Another thing I consider is my interpretation of what each god represents based on his or her domains. As an example look at Sotillion. Okay, so she's the goddess of the Summer, south wind, ease and comfort. Well, how does that relate to how people worship her. Sure, primarily she's in charge of the growing of plants in the Summer, but with one of her domains being Charm, and also her associations with ease, comfort, and her description, she seems very much a love goddess to me, and was probably more concerned with that in ancient times, when the Oeridians were a less homogenized people. Since then they've adopted other gods associated with love and beauty (Myrhiss and Wee Jas) so Sotillion doesn't get her due in that are as much as she used to, but she's still probably sometimes invoked for love charms, weddings, and such. That's just one example.
Remember that the deities listed as "Common" in early sources, with no other ethnic designation, may be common to all or most pantheons. They include Boccob, Incabulos, Cyndor, Bleredd, Ehlonna, Joramy, Lirr, Myhriss, Olidammara, Ralishaz, and Trithereon. So, for example, the reason the Oeridians don't have a goddess of love is that Myhriss is their goddess of love.
I left St. Cuthbert and Zagyg off that list because they both probably ascended after the Great Migrations and their cultural mixing.
Also: some of the gods who are listed as both Common and having a specific ethnic origin may still be part of other pantheons under different names. From the Ashes specifically calls Beory a universal Oerth mother, for example, so the Oeridians probably recognize some version of her, even if she was uncommonly worshiped by them in ancient times. There's some evidence that Al'Akbar was a priest of Pelor under the name Al'Asran, and that the ancient Oeridians knew Pelor under the name Sol.
Being called a common deity doesn't mean you have to work the god into every pantheon, of course. Ehlonna might have only been known by the Flan and elves, and wood giants, tallfellow halflings, and fey. Trithereon might have been Oeridian, Suel, and Flan, and elven, but not Baklunish or dwarvish. Who knows?
There's also the deities of unknown origin: Ulaa, Tharizdun, Wastri. Remnants of now-vanished races or cultures.
While adding Beory and Pelor (Sol), and most likely Incabulos, Nerull, and Boccob to the Oeridian pantheon helps fill out the ranks of greater deities among that people, it's still hard to escape the notion that there was an earlier generation of gods in their culture which is now missing or dead. Who were the parents of Celestian and Fharlanghn, or Zilchus and Kurell? Did the wind gods have a mother? Who were the fathers of Heironeous and Hextor? A divine war like the Titanomachy in Greek mythology, where the elder gods were imprisoned or killed by the younger gods, would explain a lot.
Generally speaking, the Suel pantheon is complete in itself and it's hard to add other gods to their pantheon without substantial overlap. That fits with the idea that the ancient, pre-Rain of Colorless Fire Suel were xenophobic and averse to cultural mixing.
The Flan are probably best not thought of as a single culture. The Flan who originally worshiped Rao - migratory herders, thus the shepherd crook symbol - are probably not the same as the settled, agricultural Flan, who might not have been the same as the hunter-gatherer Flan of the north. The Flan of the Isles of Woe might have been devotees of Boccob, while the Flan of the Barrens to the north probably have no use for wizard-gods. Some of these cultures may have combined by the time of the Great Migrations, though.
@SirXaris: Yes, it's true that the Flan gods can be a cause of their own failed civilizations. I like that.
@smillan_31: Hmmm....yes, it could be that the Harvest gods lost power with the mingling of cultures and some more obvious gods taking the other's portfolios. Good thoughts!
@rasgon: Your thoughts on the "common" gods is something I assumed happened after mingling of the different cultures. They either came from other planes, or were mortals raised up, or some other option that had the various gods come from other cultures. I figured they sprung up independantly of any particular pantheon. I didn't really account for them to be around at the same time as when the pantheons imprinted themselves on their home cultures. I like to think of the specific cultures are being rather insular....or else they would be part of the culture.
Wastri is listed as a Suel god on the wiki.
So........with the overall Common gods and the mixing of cultures...I've got some questions. First off, how much have the cultures mingled? How much is Wee Jas worshipped outside of Suel areas? I figure the Sheldomar Valley is normal, but what about, say the Great Kingdom? Is she worshiped much there? How much have the various pantheons mixed? Also, the common gods, are they everywhere? Or only in specific areas? Or are they NOT in certain areas?
I'm just trying to understand how much things have mixed. I have to admit that I kind of like things NOT being quite mixed. It tends to give some regional flavor. I know I can always do things my own way, but I'm curious what is canon.
So........with the overall Common gods and the mixing of cultures...I've got some questions. First off, how much have the cultures mingled?
From the LGG, "Unmixed human races exist in several enclaves, but for the most part the Suel, Flan, Oeridians, and Baklunish have mixed to form a variety of blended types.Race is given little importance by intelligent folk, particularly in the central lands, though some royal courts promote particular racial types. Each race appears to have developed ages ago in isolation from all others, with its own pantheon of deities, language, and culture. In practical matters of exploration, trade, adventure, and war, color and race have little meaning." So, officially, they've mingled quite a bit, but play it however you want. Given the way humans work in the real world, I tend to have small, isolated groups of "pure" ethnic minorities mingled about in almost every nation, but for the most part people are mixed, with an Oeridian-Suloise mix of blood being the most widespread, but it still varies quite a bit.
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How much is Wee Jas worshipped outside of Suel areas? I figure the Sheldomar Valley is normal, but what about, say the Great Kingdom? Is she worshiped much there?
"The Gods of the Suel Pantheon" from DRG#88 mentions Lo Reltarma, the Scarlet Brotherhood, and the Pale. Considering the Pale's racial mix from the LGG of FO (Flan-Oeridian), as well as the general hatred of any god who isn't Pholtus, and the specific antipathy toward wizards (and presumably their gods) this is kind of curious. My tendency would be to ignore it, although it could be a fun challenge to cook a good reason why Wee Jas is particularly popular with the primarily Flan peasant population of the Pale. If you look at the LGG nation data, Wee Jas is listed as being worshiped in four different nations: Ahlissa, where she is # 15 out of 20 gods or pantheons, Lordship of the Isles, where she is #5 out of 6 (with 6 being "other Suloise gods), Rel Astra and the Solnor Compact, where she is #10 out of 10, and the Scarlet Brotherhood, where she is #3 out of 6. The Age of Worms AP mentions a temple in Alhaster, and a sect devoted to a Jasidin saint, the Green Lady, in Diamond Lake, near the City of GH. The Scarlet Tide AP's opening setting is the city of Sasserine, on Jeklea Bay, where here cult played a prominent role in the city's history, and remains relatively powerful into modern times. I also assume she is popular in the Sheldomar, Sea Princes, and the Selintan-Wild Coast area. I assume most of her popularity in Rel Astra and Ahlissa is due to the latter having a heavier Suloise cultural influence from early Post-Migration times, and that with the former she gained some influence as sort of a foreign cult, something like Isis in Rome during the Roman Empire.
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How much have the various pantheons mixed?
In some places a great deal, in others, not so much. The mixture is fairly varied also.
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Also, the common gods, are they everywhere? Or only in specific areas? Or are they NOT in certain areas?
No, not everywhere, although those places are exceptions and not the rule. The SB is pretty exclusively Suloise, and the Lordship of the Isles seems to be; likewise Zief, Tusmit, and the Paynims seem exclusively Baklunish, but with Al-Akbar having been a priest of Al'Asran (Pelor), and there doubtless being some worshipers of Al-Zarad (Boccob) among Banklunish wizards, you can also say that the common gods get their due.
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I'm just trying to understand how much things have mixed. I have to admit that I kind of like things NOT being quite mixed. It tends to give some regional flavor. I know I can always do things my own way, but I'm curious what is canon.
Given what little is canon, and that even with them being mixed, each region has its own mix, that doesn't preclude there being a specific regional flavor; in fact it argues for there being even more flavors than just plain old Flan, Suloise, Oeridian and Baklunish.
@rasgon: Your thoughts on the "common" gods is something I assumed happened after mingling of the different cultures. They either came from other planes, or were mortals raised up, or some other option that had the various gods come from other cultures.
There are difficulties with that interpretation. Olidammara was worshipped by the ancient Flan, for example (there's an ancient shrine to him in The Scarlet Brotherhood sourcebook), but also sponsored the Oeridian goddess Rudd's apotheosis very shortly after the Twin Cataclysms (she was born circa 400 years before the Common Year, I think, according to the Dragon Magazine article on her). Pelor is a strong candidate for sponsoring Azor'alq 3,000 years ago. There are indications that Tharizdun and Boccob have a very long history as rivals that may preclude Boccob being a recently ascended mortal. The Flan quasi-deity Krovis is allied with Trithereon despite the fact that Krovis has been asleep for over 1,000 years.
Obviously your mileage may vary. You may think of some of those sources and speculation as more credible than others, and some of those deities may be from other planes or be risen mortals even if they were worshiped on Oerth before the migrations. Some of them, like Cuthbert and Zagyg, are almost definitely post-migrations, though I associate Cyndor with the City of the Gods culture (I think he's likely the same entity as Mystara's Khoronus) and tend to dislike suggestions that a god as primal and universal as Incabulos is new to Oerth. Ehlonna, at least, canonically belongs to two different pantheons (elven and human), and I think this is probably the case for many of the common deities, but obviously it isn't up to me how you interpret things on your game.
I'll note, though, that gods have ways of introducing themselves to multiple cultures without the cultures themselves communicating ith each other or otherwise breaking their isolation. They can send proxies, avatars, inspire prophets, or be visited by planar travelers, to give a few suggestions. I think including the common gods helps flesh out some of the pantheons.
The deal with Wastri is that supposedly he was an apprentice of Kevelli Mauk who was transformed by an ancient ruin. You could argue that his Suel background makes him a Suel deity now, but the ruins, and thus the god who transformed him, are definitely pre-Suel. The bullywug god Ramenos is a strong candidate, and given that Wastri is probably more worshiped by bullywugs than anything, perhaps he's more properly described as a bullywug deity. But in truth the origin of his powers is unknown, and Wastri's ethnic origin, like that of Tharizdun and Ulaa, is listed as unknown in the World of Greyhawk boxed set.
Remember that the deities listed as "Common" in early sources, with no other ethnic designation, may be common to all or most pantheons. They include Boccob, Incabulos, Cyndor, Bleredd, Ehlonna, Joramy, Lirr, Myhriss, Olidammara, Ralishaz, and Trithereon. So, for example, the reason the Oeridians don't have a goddess of love is that Myhriss is their goddess of love.
Never knew that some of these guys (Myrhiss, Cyndor, Blerred, Lirr, and Olidammara) were considered as Common gods in pre-3e sources, and then later given human sub-racial identities. That's interesting and provides some food for thoought. Thanks!
Remember that the deities listed as "Common" in early sources, with no other ethnic designation, may be common to all or most pantheons. They include Boccob, Incabulos, Cyndor, Bleredd, Ehlonna, Joramy, Lirr, Myhriss, Olidammara, Ralishaz, and Trithereon. So, for example, the reason the Oeridians don't have a goddess of love is that Myhriss is their goddess of love.
Never knew that some of these guys (Myrhiss, Cyndor, Blerred, Lirr, and Olidammara) were considered as Common gods in pre-3e sources, and then later given human sub-racial identities. That's interesting and provides some food for thoought. Thanks!
Yeah, I was kind of annoyed when Sean K. Reynolds (I guess it was him) added new ethnic designations to a lot of the old common gods, since it warps what the pantheons were and thus our understanding of the cultures.
It's a minor thing, especially if you consider the common gods to have been part of those pantheons anyway, but still. For example, I definitely wouldn't have made Bleredd an Oeridian god, or considered Myhriss to be Flan.
Hmmm....it seems that they are more mixed than I originally thought. I kind of like the idea of keeping the cultures seperate. It makes for more interesting situations in my humble opinion. I like Geoff in the middle of the Sheldomar and how it's always been Flan. Keoland is run by Suel with the Oerdians as minor players. It just kind of creates a heirchy and different views. Not that they hate each othter, but there is tension there.
I was thinking how the pantheons might clash a bit, too. Or at least be seperate, even if the same god at times. I keep thinking of the Thieves World short stories. Each one was written by a different author from a different perspective. The two pantheons were at odds with each other and swapped between protagonist and antagonist.
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