Maybe that is an exaggeration but I want to share with you my excitement over a fairly recent Wotc accessory - Races of Destiny (RoD).
Without a great deal of exaggeration, I find RoD to be one of the most thought provoking and potentially influential additions to the (A)D&D ouvre in a long, long time. And in some of these most exciting areas, it is Greyhawk by direct reference (or at least inference)!
RoD is a "race book" that discusses humans, half-elves & orcs and the new Illumian race (the ones with the glowing "stock-ticker" around their heads). The half-elves & orcs are forgettable. The "crunch" of RoD is forgettable. It is the meta-game concepts that are explored, I will dare use the term "philosophy," that is memorable and potential stunning.
In very brief, RoD offers -
(1) A discussion of a urbanization, city-building, as a most prototypical "human" trait, along with a god of urbanization (Urbanus);
(2) A "god of humans," as Moradin is a "god of dwarves" etc.;
(3) This greater god, Zarus, is compared to Pelor and described as a potential rival;
(4) Zarus aligns Neutral Evil!
(5) A creation mythology, with a fantasy "adam & eve" and a fantasy "garden of eden" are described;
(6) A tie-in to the language primeval of Mathmaghama in the Yatil Mountains (College of Wizardry) is suggested;
(7) A tie-in to St. Cuthbert is suggested;
And I could go on, both in a listing and in a discussion of the potential implications of the items listed but I frankly need to calm down to best compose my thoughts and right now I am very excited! And you thought my posts today were because I'd gone off my meds.
RoD is the most philosophcally rich book WotC has produced in years. That it is rife with Greyhawk references only makes it better.
WARNING - If all you do is look RoD over in the game store, you may easily decide there is nothing there. You have to read this book to appreciate it. Scanning it, you may miss things. I did, but something made me buy it anyway.
WARNING - The first time you read this book you may think it contains nothing very special and some significant junk. To appreciate this book, you need to be familiar enough with it to start making connections, both internally and externally. I finished my third read of the book today. Each time I have read it, I have become more and more convinced that this is the most amazing product of the WotC era, in terms of the sheer intellectual and philosophical puzzles presented, as well as much new development of heretofore unknown or under developed concepts.
The Greyhawk material, like all in 3rd Edition, you have to hunt for. But RoD is richly rewarding. I keep finding new things that surprise me with each read. This is a book to be "studied" and I do not throw that term around when it is applied to a mere game. There is enough philosophical grist here to warrant a complete discussion list.
I give this book an 9 out of 10 for general (A)D&D content and a 7 out of 10 for GH content. I am just blown away!
Don't look for crunch or immediately useful nformation, but if you want a book that can make you think and keep you thinking, that rewards patience, RoD has you covered.
DAMN!
GVD ::alcohol is a seditive right?:: _________________ GVD
Thanks for the tip, GVD. I would certainly have missed the GH content without your prompting to look more closely :D _________________ Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html
I actually do not disagree with your appraisal of Races of Destiny that much.
If anyone is looking for cool new "crunch," Races of Destiny will disappoint. No one much needs "roleplaying advice" as roleplaying advice.
There is, however, a philosophical (in a gaming way) undercurrent that is very thought provoking, IMO. Races of Destiny will challenge the way you think about humanity in the game, whether you ultimately agree or disagree.
I will take one example, that I am happily grappling with. Zarus, the God of Humanity (in the way Moradin is the God of Dwarves, etc.), is a greater god who aligns Neutral Evil. That by itself is stunning in its potential ramifications. How does Moradin align? Corelian Larethian? And now the God of Humans is Neutral Evil? What's up with that? Sure you can shrug it off as fluff or filler but if you choose to engage the notion, there is a potential to radically alter how humans are seen and presented in the game. But there is more.
Zarus, as he is discussed in the context of Pelor, is Greyhawk to the bone. A new greater deity growing into rivalary with Pelor? Whoa! If you engage the thought, it has potentially huge ramifications for the setting.
And perhaps the most obvious criticism - so where's this "new" greater deity of "humanity" pop-up from to be mentioned in the same breath with Pelor? - is actually no criticism but another fascinating puzzle. Obviously, IMO, Zarus is from outside the Flanaess, as he has no pre-existing context within the Flanaess. OUTSIDE THE FLANAESS? Now, another fascinating door is opened. Where? How? Etc.
And reading about Zarus, one picks up on a certain montheistic feel. MONOTHESISM! In Greythawk? Coming from a neutral evil deity who is the ONLY god with humanity as his portfolio? And who is being described as a rival to Pelor? The mind reels at the prospects!
This is GREAT stuff, IMO. It makes you think if you do more than just shrug and dismiss it. The questions. The thoughts. The possibilities.
And this is just a brief look at Zarus. Not even complete! And then there is all the rest of the book!
Yes. The crunch sucks. Yes. You will get no immediate play value. But you get a motherlode of challenging ideas to ponder. They may wind up being so much hot air - or not. The ideas in Races of Destiny are not certain to be dismissed immediately or with time, however much individual DMs may do so.
Is Races of Destiny to everyone's taste? Obviously, no. Is Races of Destiny obviously flawed in its rules crunch? Obviously, yes (IMO). But the subtext, the undercurrent of thought is, IMO, amazing. I have never with a Wotc product felt "challenged" in my thinking about the game before. For that alone, I give Races of Destiny high marks.
And I am not sure that I will give up on the poor crunch, longer term. I agree the Illumians strike one as outlandish at first blush. But when read in context with the College of Wizardry (something I have only done peripherally), I am not certain that the Illumians are the total loss they first appear. And there are further connections like this suggested.
This goes to my comment that Races of Destiny reads provocatively internally within its covers BUT also reads provocatively when read in the context of the (A)D&D opus and the GH opus.
IMO, this is a thought provoking book that may have a huge potential impact on the game and GH, more specifically.
But, you should not buy this book for the rules crunch. If you buy it, you buy it to read and ponder.
I wish every gaming product made me think the way Races of Destiny has.
I looked it over again, and I have to agree with Sam. Your opinions are valid, but for $30.00, I expect more.
I am not sure how this works, but I found the PHB, DMG, MM, MMII, MMIII, Fiend Folio, and Unearthed Arcana to be excellent (though I didn't like UA at first).
So what is wrong with these later volumes? GVD, what you found in ROD is interesting, and would make a good article. However, lets start with the name... Zarus... isn't that a watch, or some other consumer item. Even the name is not well done.
The entire complete series had that "I am in a rush and dont mind casually desecrating you favorite setting," feel to them. Do I think ROD could have been an excellent work, yes. Is it, no.
Is the Battle Mage and Tarath Moord (? are those names correct) nice additions to the Grey Hawk setting? Yes. Worth $30.00. NO. Why were the Knight Protetors of the Great Kingdom made the Knight Protectors? Even the lack of consideration is inconsistent, as they have the Seul Archanmachs; which they then very carefully explain to other DMs, like they are small children, that they can still use archanamachs if they just change a few things! For those true morons out there?
As with other recent publications by WOTC, I think that this is simply a product that was pushed out too soon, without enough real thought and attention to a story, any story, some story.
I looked it over again, and I have to agree with Sam. Your opinions are valid, but for $30.00, I expect more. . . .
The entire complete series had that "I am in a rush and dont mind casually desecrating you favorite setting," feel to them. Do I think ROD could have been an excellent work, yes. Is it, no. . . .
As with other recent publications by WOTC, I think that this is simply a product that was pushed out too soon, without enough real thought and attention to a story, any story, some story.
Anced,
I do not disagree with your appraisal. I did not disagree with Sam's. Yet, I came to a fundamentally different "go or no go" decision, despite accepting both of your points as well taken.
Your post has got me to thinking why I can be so accomodating, yet still reach a very different outcome. I think the answer lies in a willingness to accept what I will call, "the Greyhawk that is."
"The Greyhawk that is" consists of a bunch of small mentions in products that are otherwise generic.
Some people are going to say that this is no Greyhawk at all. It is just the use of a few nouns that could otherwise be Waterdeep, Mystra, Solomania or Raistlin, just as effectively. And they will be right.
Others are going to say that this is Greyhawk because that's where the nouns come from and that because they are in print, they are part of all Greyhawk mentions, ie "canon." And they will be right.
GVD, I appreciate you perspective. And I like the snippits of GH material. But as that is the only reason I would purchase this product, it is not a good buy. All of the GH related material, in RODestiny, ROStone, CompleteArcane, Divine, Warrior, etc., would make an excellent PDF.
Your appreciation of the philisophical aspects probably make this more attractive to you. That is the reason there is vanilla and choclate. However, i still think that each of these volumes lack the overall quality of previous works by WOTC.
In many ways it reminds me of TSR in the late 80's and the early 90s. Way too much, it reminds me of that period.
And Next Month, Races of the Wild, Sandstorm! And the next month, Races of the Moon, Stars, and Pebbles. For May we have the Worthless adventurer Hand Book, and the Sewer of Faerun Guide!!
I don't know what is driving it, but in discussions with one of my players, he said is shows a lack of respect for the customer. I tend to agree. Many of the people on this site have been running campaigns for longer than WOTC has been a company. Don't play with canon (though we argue about canon here, there tends to be agreement about there being one). We will buy every good supplement and rules addition sold. And we will buy some bad ones. But only for so long.
And GVD, I apologize for running on, because this thread was established to praise what was good in this volume. I am glad you enjoy it, and I hope is serves you well.
In many ways it reminds me of TSR in the late 80's and the early 90s. Way too much, it reminds me of that period. . . .
I don't know what is driving it, but in discussions with one of my players, he said is shows a lack of respect for the customer. I tend to agree. . . . We will buy every good supplement and rules addition sold. And we will buy some bad ones. But only for so long.
No argument. The whole d20 and OGL thing has not worked quite as was imagined by Wotc, I would think. The "we only publish core books" strategy seems to have gone by the wayside. They now publish way more than the "core" books. Some are terrific - Frostburn. Some are not up to that level - the Races of X books.
Like the 90s, they seem to be increasing the amount of stuff they put out the door. The quality is variable but overall I like the quality of Wotc products better than the old TSR stuff. Eventually, 3E may collapse under the weight of all these books, plus the d20 and OGL publishers' stuff. We shall see.
I think the "we will buy quality" thought has merit but I also think it can unfairly become "we will buy what we like," which is different from a strict question of "quality." In an argument phrased in such "quality" terms, one side hardens to, "you produce trash" while the other becomes "you don't and won't like anything." Cynicism then sets in on both sides and any dialog becomes corrosive.
I am not "defending" Wotc, but I think any "quality" discussion is tricky.
"Quality" is a loaded, and to some degree subjective term. Maybe "useful" would be a better term? Maybe just speaking of something you "like" or find "interesting" would be a better phraseology.
I guess I would not call Races of Destiny a "quality" product or even a stictly "useful" one. I would say it is "interesting" and I "like" that.
I also like this thread. Very interesting discussion, even if it is ranging widely. _________________ GVD
I am not "defending" Wotc, but I think any "quality" discussion is tricky.
"Quality" is a loaded, and to some degree subjective term. Maybe "useful" would be a better term? Maybe just speaking of something you "like" or find "interesting" would be a better phraseology.
I guess I would not call Races of Destiny a "quality" product or even a stictly "useful" one. I would say it is "interesting" and I "like" that.
I also like this thread. Very interesting discussion, even if it is ranging widely.
Hello Everyone,
I must disagree. Quality is easy to define and discuss. Quality is whatever satisfies the customer, plain and simple. Take a $100 pen. It may be well machined, attractive in color and a brand name. But it might be out of ink, so can't be used. Take a $.75 plastic ink pen from BIC. It may be plastic, but it may not be out of ink and does the job the expensive pen doesn't. So quality is whatever meets the needs of the customer.
There are several books released that do not meet my needs. They are thick, detailed, full of beautiful illustrations and expensive, but don't meet my needs. They may meet another customers needs, but not mine. So one customer may praise a tome for being quailty work, but I may disagree and vise versa. That is the underlying problem with WoTC; they may supply several books, but they aren't quality b/c they don't necessarily meet our needs.
Personally, I am not fond of the RoD book. It seems inadequate and yet, tries to feel a niche that doesn't exist in the Greyhawk world. Sure, we can change things, but that really isn't what Greyhawk is about. We don't drastically change our Greyhawk campaigns to meet the developers desires. If anything, the developers should produce material that we
can add to our worlds but not change them.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises
