Tzelios, that was an interesting piece on the Temple and Iuz. It covers a portion of GH that I know very little about, and so I cannot say anything about how the article addresses inconsistencies. However, I very much liked your utilization of Tzeliobas, to set the stage. It was colorful, and that is very important, but more than that the portion on “General Cleaner”, got me wondering about Tzeliobas’s motivations and what impact it might have on the accuracy of the report.
Your last phrase got me loughing, I really enjoy not to be considered accurate or of suspect motivations.
Tzeliobas has worked for the Greyhawk Construction Company, an enterprise found by Zagig to build his Castle Greyhawk. Around the 570's constructions and renovations beneath Castle Greyhawk were stalled. Offices were closed and a new administration prevailed. Tzeliobas knows well the secrets of the Savant Sage, one of the previous administrators. He feels that his master is Zagyg and needed to be promoted for a time, but the Savant Sage was too busy compiling his seven volume on Flanaess and resuming operations of the old GCC. Tzeliobas has worked for the GCC as a cleaner. Presently, he was assigned independent creative control by the Savant Sage. He communicates with the Sage in quasi regular basis. He has aslo studied with Tenser. Now he is with the Pastorate of Logical Discoursers and Enquirers in Mitrik. His grand-grand father has hit Oerth with the rest of the Rhennees, but he was not a Rhennee at all.
TZ: “Your last phrase got me loughing, I really enjoy not to be considered accurate or of suspect motivations.”
I am glad you enjoyed that. I am sure that you understood that I was not questioning your accuracy or motivations, but that I was giving praise to you for including such information as the narrating character’s desire for a promotion so that readers or recipients of that information could make judgments about the character and the information he was providing.
I could just see telling players that a source was a construction janitor trying to get a promotion who also happens to have some gypsy blood and it trying to get the attention of a crazy trickster god. It would be only their fault if they did not rely on it and save the world.
Rich, your story on Robilar, Rary, etc is a really good one. I do not see however how this conforms with the fact that Kuntz wants a good redeemed Robilar.
Also, when I compared you with Kuntz I was wrong, mainly irritated by your impudence. I believe that you are as important as him, however in a different Greyhawk related activity area. I also want to thank you for all the times you assisted me.
Rich, your story on Robilar, Rary, etc is a really good one. I do not see however how this conforms with the fact that Kuntz wants a good redeemed Robilar.
I don't think it's supposed to. Robilar and Mordenkainen were never Good. They're Neutral, and in Mordy's case, militantly so. As a result, they sometimes do Evil things (like assassinating their former companions or releasing Iuz) to maintain the Balance (as at least Mordenkainen sees it). They're doing what they think is right for the Flanaess, but that isn't Good (with the capital G). It also isn't Evil.
The only place Good, redeemed Robilar seems to exist is in Rob Kuntz's head and that to my mind is where he should stay.
My sense, and it is only a feeling, is that RJK disagrees with canon Robilar because it is not "HIS" Robilar. He is asserting a "player's right" to "his" character.
The problem is Robilar is not RJK's character anymore and has not been his character for decades. Robilar belongs to Greyhawk, specifically the IP holder. That is not RJK.
RJK is acting like a player who disagrees with a DM call. And like such player, he needs to get with the program or go find another game. I might suggest the now often promised but repeatedly undelivered "Castle Zagyg." _________________ GVD
RJK deserves at least the same respect as the rest of Greyhawk fans. His Robilar take is more powerful than canon Robilar or Rich's story, since it includes canon Robilar.
I have to run now for life.
See ya,
tz _________________ "It is easier to milk a cow that stands still." Tzeliobas-Aristomenes, General Cleaning, Greyhawk Construction Company.
RJK deserves at least the same respect as the rest of Greyhawk fans. His Robilar take is more powerful than canon Robilar or Rich's story, since it includes canon Robilar.
Well - he is getting the same respect as other Greyhawk fans. From my POV, the problem is he thinks he deserves more respect than an average fan.
If I came up with an idea in my home campaign that didn't agree with canon, I'd be willing to accept it as a heresy. I certainly wouldn't start rewriting canon to shoehorn it into the published setting.
The nub of the problem is that RJK Robilar is a home campaign heresy, but because RJK is RJK, he wants to have his heresy adopted wholesale, and to hell with years of published material.
And IMO, that's not right or good.
Tzelios wrote:
I have to run now for life.
Nah - Canonfire isn't the Scarlet Brotherhood (yet). Varience of milage is allowed, otherwise this would be a dogma board rather than a discussion board.
By example there is another approach to canon. For better or worse it is employed in the RPG Traveller. The RPG and the Far Future/Imperium setting has been around about as long as GH. The philosophy of canon has been simple.
"When two sources conflict, the newest published source is right."
In addition, keeping canon in Traveller is has been easy because the company that holds the IP is active and approves/disapproves what is and is not canon. Not like WOTC there.
OTOH it has become Crisis on Infinite Imperiums. Loren Wiseman, one the heavy hitters for the original game there, gets to publish his "alternate history Imperium" as a liscensed parallel universe for GURPS as he and a significant portion of that community did not like the direction Traveller went in when they killed off Emperor Strephron.
In addition canon is maintained because each campaign has been sufficiently displaced from great lengths of time or by distance. They have at least 5 distinct eras one can play in, and that is in only 1200 years. Each is a sort of static museum piece that much can be written about without it changing later periods much.
I see that there something like that could be done with GH. There are distinct eras of history, each of which is a distinct campaign in its own right. Yes, the humor is intentional and awful.
-485 CY Baklunish Wars! Epic Roleplaying in Lands of Powerful Magic! Do you have the power to Invoke Devastation?
-422 CY Invoked Devastation Roleplaying - (play the OLD Battlestar Galactica theme music) Hounded by implacable Baklunis and Oeridians, the last human tribe, the Suel (well it is their story) is on a quest. Keveli Mauk leads a ragtag crew of refugees to the promised land of...the Tilvanot penninsula. Along the way they are betrayed by a monk named Baltar...err....Wastri... Aka Roleplaying Refugees
1 CY When Rauxes Was Good - Roleplaying in 1 CY.
375 CY City of State of the Invincible Zagyg
498 CY Hateful Greyhawk
576 CY Classic Greyhawk
585 CY Greyhawk Wars/From the Ashes
591 CY The Adventure Begins/Living Greyhawk
675 CY Greyhawk: The Next Generation - Greyhawk 80 years from now. With the exception of the ELH extended lifespan feat and possibly wishes, 3E/3.5 has no longevity potions. Every human character you knew and love in Classic Greyhawk should be dead by now. What now?
2000 CY Cyber-Greyhawk. Fantasy Roleplaying in the Far Future. Geyhawk 2000 was published in Dragon Magazine #280 or there abouts.
Here is the link to my postfest submission on the holiday of “Berceuse, the Song of Osprem” in case anyone wants to address it in the context of this thread.
I wrote it with this idea of character/author in mind. For a refresher, below is GVD's first post creating this forum.
"I've been thinking about "canon" changing over time with seemingly no rhyme or reason other than the author a) didn't check, b) didn't care or c) thought they had a better idea. If left at that, I think this sort of makes "canon" less that "canonical."
One approach I've taken it to imagine that all "canon" is being written in and by a "third person" Greyhawk scholar, whose "knowledge" may not be perfect. Thus, if canon sources disagree, it is like two medieval monks, one in Dublin and one in Bucharest, each describing events in Paris. Neither is likely to get it completetly correct to the finest detail.
Going further along this line, the author's name, following Tzelios' onamastics, can be "fictionalized" along with the GH title they authored. Thus, Sean K. Reynolds, who wrote The Scarlet Brotherhood, could become Skreyn who wrote The Brotherhood of Scarlet.
The other approach that appeals to me is to give various "canon" statements a "weight" -
Who said it and what is their GH "standing?"
Is what they say more or less rationalized?
Do most "canon" sources agree or disagee?
What are the implications for the setting, if any?
Combining these two approaches, I think solves a lot of problems resolving canon conflicts both with the main stream of GH canon and with particular reference to 3E GH canon. It is okay then if canon sources disagree, as such will not impact the integrity of the setting (within limits, of course).
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