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    Canonfire :: View topic - Rebuilding Named GH NPC's
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    Rebuilding Named GH NPC's
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    Site Theocrat

    Joined: Aug 15, 2003
    Posts: 235
    From: WoG 2.0

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    Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:14 am  
    Rebuilding Named GH NPC's

    Hi all -
    I read the new Tactics & Tips - Sibling Rivalry: Rebuilding a Web Enhancement for PHB II. From that, and from what I've reviewed from PHB II (I will read the chapter later tonight), who do you think is a good canidate for switching class?
    Of course Mordy is a wizard, plain and simple. But with all the new core classes out there who is a good canidate for switching? Each of the Complete books have new classes, the PHB II has some very nice ones, and the Miniatures Handbook as a few that haven't been reprinted elsewhere. Although not published by WotC, but written by the sage himself (the sage for 20+ years), Skip Williams' Advanced Players Manual by Green Ronin, so in my game, I do allow GRR books provided they are written by WotC/ex-WotC authors (not Monte Cook's campaign stuff, since that's pretty specific, but likely his Ptolus' city setting).

    So is there anybody that has been printed with a class that now might be modified? Of course it would have to be 3.5e. And with GH being through 4 editions now (of course there is the Combat & Tactics points system not added). Would Kimbertos be a better scout than ranger? Could Belvor be a knight? Could some of the members of the Brotherhood be Dragon Shaman's?
    Just wondering what you guys think of good replacement classes. So and so has been a fighter since 1st edition, but the history and bakground of him has him a Cavalier under Unearthed Arcana (1e), and back to a fighter in 2e. in 3.0/5 he was a fighter and then a "knightly" Prestiage class, but with the PHB II he is a perfect canidate for the Knight core class, opening the way for a PrC that fits better?
    Thanks and Be Well.
    Issak
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    Theocrat Issak
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    Joined: Jul 22, 2005
    Posts: 113
    From: Orland Hills, Illinois

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    Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:49 am  

    Are you talking about thematic changes vs. automatic/mechanical ones

    As mechanical examples:
    Will you require all guildmasters to have those guildmaster feats found in DMG II? Will Nerof Gasgal or the current Greyhawk Thieve's guildmaster require them.

    Do members of the the knightly orders
    Knight Protectors of the Great Kingdom
    Knights of Furyondy
    Knights of Veluna
    Knights of the High Forest
    Knights of Holy Shielding
    Knights of the Watch
    all belong to a specific base or prestige class. Knight Protectors of the Great Kingdom are (as Knight Protectors of the Great Kingdom PrC in 3.0 and Knight Protector in 3.5)

    Some of this has already been done. I am am in the middle of converting T1-4 and comparing the survivors found the 3.0 return module. Some of the townsfold were downgraded from fighters down to commoners.
    Site Theocrat

    Joined: Aug 15, 2003
    Posts: 235
    From: WoG 2.0

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    Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:35 pm  
    No - Changing of a Class

    Hi all -
    No, I mean:
    Nerof has always been a Theif (Rogue for new editions). But now that the PHB II or Miniatures Hanbook, or even one of the Complete books has a new class that fits him better, say the Knight (using a totally non-compatible class here). So in 1e, 2e, he was a Theif, but now that these new classes exist that didn't before, we make him a knight, because that fits him better.
    I used him and the thief/knight connection becasue it doesn't fit - but it shows an old class with a new class change.
    Something better might be a Paladin from 1e-3e changing to a Knight for 3.5 PHB II. Say the King of Fuyondy has always been a Paladin because that was the only thing that was out that he could be in 1e. Although UA 1e was never used for GH, lets say it had been. So He was later changed to Cavalier. With 2e, no Cav's so he went back to Paladin. For 3e, he was still a Paladin. He stayed one, until now, because the Knight fits his background and his story better.
    I understand that game mechanics aren't the driving point behind GH. I'm just wondering if Mordy or some other major named and stated NPC should not be a wizard but a Beguiler. Should Mordy (other named NPC) be a sorcerer and now a wizard? Warmage? Duskblade? See, with all these new classes that weren't around for the birth of GH........do changes need to be made?
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    Theocrat Issak
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3153
    From: Michigan

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    Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:20 pm  

    Oh, there's no doubt that some NPCs could use some class switching, now that the options are available. For example, Melf would make a good duskblade (PHBII). And if Bigby isn't an Argent Savant (Complete Arcane), something's wrong with the world.

    The ninja and ghostfaced killer classes might be decent for the Scarlet Brotherhood, and I've toyed with creating a Baklunish ninja demigoddess, a servant of Xan Yae like Zuoken is.
    Site Theocrat

    Joined: Aug 15, 2003
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    Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:18 pm  
    And for more fun....

    Hi all -
    The Ninja just don't fit right. Even Eric said that in one of his editorials about a player wanting to play a ninja, but in the end he said he let them.
    Long time ago, I even posted a Greytalk post about Greyhawking the Shuenja. I love the Samurai and think that a Thane fits us perfectly, substituting the specific weapons for racial weapons like the Dwurian Thane would use the Dwarven Axe and hand axe, a Human from Keoland, Furyondy, Nyrond, GK, and such might use the Longsword and short sword. Olves might use the Rapier x2. I think it fits better with the Dwur though.
    I'd love to see a GH conversion for the Ninja. Really not change the class much, just the "background" information and a piece or two that makes it fit with GH lore (like I suggest with the Thane, since it fits fine as is with minor adjustments).
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    Theocrat Issak
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    Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:05 pm  

    Well, Countess Bellisica started out as a Fg16 (1e) then a Wz14 (3e) and then a corspe (LG) so there is some history attached to retconning npcs.

    Personally, I'm not really in favour of it but largely because I'm not really in favour of a huge number of core classes. If you want to play a scout, I can't see anything wrong with building a rogue with some cross class skills in survival. Playing a knight can be a question of role-playing a fighter or an aristocrat, possibly with a few relevant skills and feats; it doesn't really need to be given formal game stats in my view.

    I was actually quite disappointed that shadowcasters weren't just a variation (or prestige class) of the wizard or sorcerer like they were in 2e. My pc was using a shadow mage prestige class of my own design and has suffered in conversion to a new core class :-(

    Overall, your npcs are what you make them! If you want to use them in a way that demonstrates one of the new classes, then go for it. However, in many respects, it makes no game difference is Belvor is a fighter, a paladin, or a knight.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
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    From: Orlane, Gran March

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    Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:41 pm  

    I havent seen the PHBII yet, but I saw the Knight online and thought it was terrible.

    I dont like core classes that can be generated from another core class by substituing feats, and are not in general, true departures from other core classes.
    Mad Archmage of the Oerth Journal

    Joined: Dec 09, 2002
    Posts: 342
    From: Ohio

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    Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:58 pm  
    GH NPCz

    I've tinkering with this idea a bit in my higher level conversions of NPC's of GH on my page http://www.greyhawkonline.com/duicarthan I will note that most are HIGH level but this was done to do what Theocrat was suggesting to see what paths they may take.

    I like to explore the possibilities myself so...I often do.

    Anyway off I go...

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    -Rick "Duicarthan" Miller
    Editor-in-Chief, Oerth Journal
    http://www.oerthjournal.com http://www.greyhawkonline.com/duicarthan


    Last edited by Duicarthan on Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:04 pm  

    Duicarthan, your link is broken Wink
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3153
    From: Michigan

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    Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:55 pm  

    GoldGreatWyrm wrote:
    Duicarthan, your link is broken Wink


    It should be http://www.greyhawkonline.com/duicarthan
    Mad Archmage of the Oerth Journal

    Joined: Dec 09, 2002
    Posts: 342
    From: Ohio

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    Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:18 pm  
    oops

    it was the period at the end and the / that botched it =/

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    Cheerz,
    -Rick "Duicarthan" Miller
    Editor-in-Chief, Oerth Journal
    http://www.oerthjournal.com http://www.greyhawkonline.com/duicarthan
    Novice

    Joined: Feb 17, 2005
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    Sun Jun 04, 2006 9:31 am  

    I have retrofitted a number of Greyhawk NPCs, and some of them have been kindly posted by Mr. Miller on the abovelinked page. Mostly, I substituted levels of core classes with prestige classes that (ideally) better served the NPC while remaining true to the character's previous depictions.

    For example, Archbaron Bestmo of Blackmoor is listed in LGG as a fighter 11/wizard 4, a CR 15 challenge. That seems like a poor build, IMHO, granting Bestmo a handful of weak spells at the cost of combat ability. So my version is a fighter 3/wizard 3/spellsword 9. For the same CR, my Bestmo has the spells/day of an 8th level wizard (not to mention CL 12th by having the Practiced Spellcaster feat from Complete Arcane) vs. LGG's Bestmo's 4th-level spellcasting, and my Bestmo has a base atk of +13, making him no less capable of combat than the LGG Bestmo (though mine has fewer feats).

    In my version of 3.5 Greyhawk, the fighter-mages of 1st and 2nd ed. are almost always be refitted as prestige classes, specifically eldritch knight and spellsword. Another change that seems obvious to me is King Hazendel of Sunndi. In 1st ed., he is listed as a cleric 5/fighter 8/magic-user 8, but multiclassing has changed from apples to oranges since then, and LGG lists him as a wizard 8/cleric 4/fighter 1. The poor fellow is spread so thin with three classes, he'd make a lousy adventurer and not much of a challenge at his CR of 13. My version is a cleric 3/fighter 1/wizard 3/mystic theurge 6. My Hazendel has a base atk +7, whereas the LGG Hazendel has a +8, but my Hazendel has the spells/day of a 9th level cleric and a 9th level wizard (both CL 13th with Practiced Spellcasting -- can you tell I like that feat?). I believe my version packs alot more punch for the 13 CR.

    Besides doing more justice to the NPCs of Greyhawk, the practice of retrofitting and converting old-school D&D NPCs is strangely satisfying (in an obsessive-compulsive, time-consuming, ultimately pointless way Wink ).
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 17, 2006
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    Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:40 pm  

    Another NPCs who should have their stats redone are the Khans of the Tiger and Wolf nomads, both of whom are fighters/wiz(ilusionists). In the Overview of the Tiger nomads in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer it's said the old khan wanted his heirs to be masters of the beguilement. The Beguiler is now a Core class of PHB2, and he is a kind of ilusionist/fighter from what I heard.
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