Well I have a new problem; one of my PC's wants to sit back and manufacture wands. Simply put, he hopes to create a bunch of wands and sell them and carry about....oh, half a dozen wands of Fireballs. Now my question is, how do I....guide him in a different direction? I foresee lots of problems with my campaign should he start making several wands.
Currently the group is in the city of Longspear in the Yeomanry. In my campaign it is an adventurers town, being a center of trade and all. With regards to magic, it is still low key (unlike Waterdeep or cities of Ebberon). Many wizards make the city a base of operations becasue it is a strategic location; close to the Joten Mountains, the Hool Marshes, the Dreadwood, on the Javan River, it's well patrolled, etc. Even though it;s home to many mages, they like to keep things quiet as do the citizens.
With that being said, any siggestions? Even if they move out of Longspear, I have a concern about my 6th mage PC making wand after wand. Any advice would help. Until then, I'll be reading and reviewing the feats and such.
Agreed - market saturation should quickly make it unprofitable. It's not like there's a mass market for wands of fireball.
The XP thing should also shut things down pretty quick.
Other possibilities are:
A merchants/mage's guild wanting cuts of the takings;
A nix-nay on the wand making from the rulers of the town esp. if one of the wands are used by bad guys (for example - that tribe of orcs from the Jotens who buy through a non-evil, but unscrupulous middle man) to shoot up a caravan or a border post (this could be a frame up too). The problem with making more weapons is that they can easily fall into the wrong hands. This way you also get to turn the guy's own wands against him. :)
Just how much time is this guy willing to spend manufacturing the wands? Is he really ready to invest in a laboratory to do all his spellcasting in? Are the resources necessary for wand-making there? And just how much are people willing to pay for the wands? Will the price they pay, after all the time and money he spends manufacturing the wands, be worth it? Keep in mind he should only be able to manufacture one wand at a time, and he'll need to rest for a couple of days after creating the wand.
With all this in mind, this fool is probably going to come out with a huge loss of time, money and resources, when he realizes the prices he can get for the wands simply don't match the time, XP loss, and start-up costs of the operation.
If I were you, I wouldn't hesitate to teach this player a lesson. Make an example of him, so the players can see for themselves the consequences of trying to manufacture too many magic items. Seeing his character on the verge of bankruptcy, having lost a considerable amount of time and XP for nothing, makes the player's punishment all the sweeter.
No one, BUT NO ONE, not even Mordenkainen himself, manufactures magic items for profit! Magic items are supposed to be cherished treasures, and players and villains alike should be damn grateful to have even one permanent item.
I have no compunction with players offering new historical ideas, original communities, even some new devices, but there are some lines I will not cross. Anyone who attempts to manufacture firearms, industrialize Oerth, or manufacture magic items for sale WILL suffer the consequences, and they won't be pretty.
IMO, the only types of magic that should be available for sale are potions and low-level scrolls. Given how rare magic weapons are, players will pay extortionate rates for oil of sharpness and impact, which allows their otherwise ordinary weapons to wound creatures like perytons and gargoyles. If there's a magic shield or a flying carpet for sale at a wizard's guild, it's probably because someone gave it to the guild as payment in lieu of cash or services, or hocked it because getting some quick cash was a life-or-death matter for them. And even then, the guildmembers can probably use it for themselves-just because a heavily armored warrior has little use for bracers of defense doesn't mean a wizard won't cheerfully accept them as payment for turning a friend from stone back to flesh. Why would the wizard sell something so useful to him or her? _________________ <div align="left">Going to war without Keoland is like going to war without a pipe organ. They both make a lot of noise and they're both a lot of dead weight, so what's the point in taking them along? </div>
Yes, another good point. With the exception of low level scrolls (2nd level at most) and potions, magic items are not commonly found. They are given to individual's by churches and arcanist patrons as rewards of services or made for personnal use. Sometimes they can be found for buy, but almost always they are the plunder of old ruins and dungeons, found by adventurer's that have no use for them - like a group without a druid or ranger finding a wand of summon nature ally III or a cleric who found a +2 holy morningstar and now has no use for his +1 heavy mace.
For the wand of fireballs issue, Woesinger nailed a good one: there is problably not a large market for wands. This type of items are problably made only when requisited by someone willingly to pay for it. It's hard to imagine someone stocking wands in some store.
Large markets for powerfull magic items can only be supported in places where mentality of the population and local economic situation allows it - like Sigil , the Iron City of Dis or Union City. Even so, finding 9th level magic scrolls or staffs for sale will be unlikely, even in this places.
First, the wizard does need a laboratory to use the craft and brew skills, which is discussed in the DMG, IIRC. That's a good chunk of change.
Other than that, the "rules" specify that the character essentially doubles his money after a week or so of work. But, as mentioned above, its important to realize that this is not at all guaranteed.
He's making wands. Wands can only be used by other mages. So its important to sit down and think about how many mages there are in Longspear or the immediate environs, how many of them have any interest in purchasing a magical weapon like a wand of fireballs (most mages don't have any use for mass destruction magic, after all. A non combat wizard would probably want something a little more discreet and precise for self defense), and how many of those can actually afford the high prices being asked. Then consider how many of said wizards could make their own wands or know other NPCs who could make them for them. A Wand of Fireballs is not cheap. According to the PHB, the cost is caster lvl (6) x Spell Level (3) x 750gp. That's 13500gp. (don't have the DMG handy to check the price in there). I doubt many NPCs have both the interest and the ability to spend that kind of money on a charged item. Remember, 95% of NPCs are not professionally violent, like adventurers are.
All in all, the market for wands of fireballs is probably pretty damned small. Especially if your campaign is using the traditional Keoish distrust of obvious spell casting type magic. Longspear is not in Keoland, but it used to be and its right on the border. Its not likely to be significantly more liberal.
You don't want to make the Craft Wand feat into something useless. It is an advantage, after all. But you do need to make it clear to him just how things work in terms of magic for sale. Most items, and magical ones in particular, are made on commission. Find someone who wants to buy an item you can make, *then* make the item. If you make the item and then hope you can sell it, you'll likely be burned.
Making a wand of fireballs is a hefty xp cost. 540xp each or slightly more than 10xp per use. So I don't think there should be a problem with him making them for personal use or selling one occassionally. But mass production would be completely unfeasible. The market is too small and the xp cost too high.
By the rules, it costs 5,625 gp, 450 XP and 12 days to make a wand of fireballs... which he can then sell for 5,625 gp. :)
If you're more lenient about the selling price than the Core Rules, then you can go into the wonderful world of taxation, government interference (you're selling what to apprentices?!?), etc.
Of course, demand also comes into it. What is it? Well, that is modelled by the Craft and Profession skills. In this case, I'd use a Profession (storekeeper) skill for how much profit/week. He might be able to make them... but selling is another problem.
Crafting wands in general is great - it allows the Wizard to prepare more interesting spells and let their wand do the fireballing (though often at a much lesser damage potential than normal).
In my campaigns, there are many NPC wizards and the like who craft magic items on commission (it's profitable - and makes a lot of sense), but often they're engaged by nobles or guilds.
By the rules, it costs 5,625 gp, 450 XP and 12 days to make a wand of fireballs... which he can then sell for 5,625 gp. :)
Umm, how do you figure that? The PHB clearly states the cost of materia to make the wand is 1/2 the retail price. If you go with straight pricing out of the book, he'll double his investment in each wand. If it costs 5625gp to make, then the 'market price' is defined as 11250gp. Obviously, those numbers assume he's making the wand at 5th lvl of effect (as opposed to his full 6th lvl, which he is entitled to do). Unless you mean sell for a 5625gp profit?
As I (and several others) discussed above, its not guaranteed that he'll be able to recoup that full retail price, of course.. Not sure if 5 or 6 thousand gold is a good return on 450 (or 540) xp. That depends on how plentifuly gold is in the campaign. But most PCs would rather have the xp, in my experience.
The cost alone should initially be prohibiting enough. By 3.5 reckoning, isn't the expected accumulated wealth of a character of 6th level right around 6,000 gold (coinage and items combined)?
If nothing else, like others have said, let him do it and then realize there just no market for it.
Mass magic item manufacturing is just bad business.
I've only had one player succesfully make a business of manufacturing "magic items". In a 2nd edition campaign he would cast continual light on a copper piece and wedge it into a block of wax.
In every village the party went through he'd market his 'Everburning Candles". His sales pitch included, "Brighter than a lantern with none of the fire hazard." He never really made money doing it, simply bartered with poor villagers for a place to stay, food or other supplies the party may need.
He also "invented" the Mage Light. A scroll case with the same lighted coin inside. Pop the end of the case and he had something similiar to a flashlight. Those he usually traded at keeps and such to the sentriesfor use when they were pulling night watch.
In 3.5E you can burn more xp than you have for the level. You just cannot go below 0. What means is it takes longer to get out of the XP hole.
The "simple" economics of the game will prevent him from selling his Wands in most areas except Metropoli and Planar Metropoli.
Strongly enforce the rules about things possibly getting damaged when the character fails a saving throw for certain damage situations. Include both sides ("Why did you use a charge in the middle of the fight? Sure, I survived but you destroyed my real cool sword and the bad guys glowing shield. Dammit! Are you gonna replace it?")
Well. You've created your own monster basically. I can't recall any 6th level pc of mine that had 35,000+ g.p. just sitting around.
Perhaps a gang of thieves have found out about a horde of cash and mean to have. Unfortunately the horde of cash belongs to the mage. Even if the mage is able to track down the thieves they may have already spent much of the cash or sent it elsewhere. Perhaps you need to work out material component costs for spell components. If the mage wants to make 6 wands, what have the other pc's done with their 35,000+ g.p.? Have they bought magic items of comparable value? If so, why penalize the mage pc for wanting to make specifically what they want to? The mage isn't just spending cash on items like the other pc's would. The mage is sacrificing xp as well as a Feat slot for the ability to even make the wands. If the mage wants to make wands to sell, that is fine too. They should sell for more than what they cost to make- probably for twice as much. Remember, money can always be spent, lost, or stolen. Perhaps you need to institute item saving throws if you do not already. Magic is readily more available through character manufacture than ever before, and yet the world isn't overflowing with magic items. Its a good system, there just need to be in-game limitations on it.
Perhaps those rare ingredients are not available, and it will cost even more to get them. "Sorry Mordenkainette. There are only enough supplies of that type in Greyhawk City to make two fireball wands. You'll need to find more somewhere else." A listed cost doesn't mean that supplies are always available. This solution is equitable and solves some problems of having a walking missile battery in your campaign. Either that or the next time the party runs into some group of monsters that the mage repeatedly fireballs, the monsters suddenly all target the mage with EVERYTHING they have until the mage drops to the ground dead or dieing. Drawing undue attention is its own punishment sometimes.
As another idea of getting rid of some of that cash, have the pc's go in on building a base of operations. That entails all sorts of fees for rights, permits, paying workers, buying supplies and transporting them- a veritable money pit. Even still, depending on the scope of such a project, it might suck up only a fraction of each pc's 35,000+ g.p. If the pc's really piss somebody off, their base can always be assaulted a' la a reverse dungeon, where the dm gets to assault the base with a group representing the pissed off villain and the players get to kit out the base however they are able to. If they haven't prepared well, the base could be lost. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
Well - there's a few ways to deal with that. They'll be prime targets for theft and extortion as mentioned above. If the PCs have any family or loved ones, expect them to be kidnapped for ransom. There's also the possibility they'll be targetted by conmen ("Invest in this trading expedition to Ahlissa...see ya later, suckers!"), beggars and petitioners ("Please sir, my horse died and I can't plough my fields to pay my rent..." - and of course, if they give to one good cause, expect another 10 to come out of the woodwork).
Taxes are also a way of separating a PC and his gold.
There's also the effect of injecting 6 x 35,000 gp into a relatively small market like Longspear - hyperinflation. Just add a couple of zeros to every price and have the city descend into chaos when regular folk can't afford to pay for bread anymore as the value of gold goes through the floor. This might make the authorities impose an emergency "tax" to pull all that gold off the market and restore the economy to an even keel (there's a reason why economics is called the dismal science... )
Alternatively, they could be more subtle and grant the PCs a troubled fixer-upper border fief as a way to put all that money to good use (which of course, will mean that they'll be liable to homage payments, taxation as well as the monetary requirements of maintaining their obligations - maintaining defences and an adequate militia).
Let him sit astounded in his new found wealth and power! Let him prance around town in new rainment, hob nob with the duke, meet the mayor. This is, after all, a fantasy campaign. If they wanted to spend all their time in miserable dangerous conditions without reward they would join the military. So... let him enjoy it a while.
Gaming though, can be painfully like good old fashioned reality. In the real world, what usually happens to persons who either a) make a lot of money and flaunt it or b) make a lot of money undeservedly is that they come to the attention of lots of people.
People that they would probably be better off without their attention.....
First and foremost, the IRS, or your game equivalent. (Suggestion: write a sketchy tax code... 5 or 10 ways to steal an adventurers wealth, and tell him that it was always their, it was only applied to those that they felt they could get the money from... like the Alternative Minimum Tax. Maybe a magic item sales tax for commercial sales?)
Second, he is making Wands of Fireball in a land not overly fond of magic. But even in a land like Aerdi, where magic is more accepted, the ATF is going to want to know why he needs 6 wand. This may be a problem every time he enters and leaves the city, as the gate guards will just have to ask.
Third, all those nobles he is hobnobbing with... well he is their flavor of the week. They may be only a 12th level aristocrat, but they keep their place by eating 15th level wizards for breakfast politically. Soon, he will find that his fame has past, his money is gone, and they are still the Duke and the Mayor. Woesingers suggestion about the border keep is excellent. Or they may get known far and wide, and have a fief far away, granted by the Lion Throne. And because it is far away, it is really expensive. (but if you do either of these, there has to be an advantage to having the fief, or it is and feels like a punishment)
Fourth, already referenced... theives. The wealthier the PC, the more theives like em. After all, there is no profit in robbing the poor.
Finally, if he is just doing it to for the power of casting fireballs... Salamanders. Any fire based creature will do. Do it at the end of an adventure, when he has drained down everything else. The advantage of being a wizard is flexibility, not hundreds of fireballs.
The one thing I dont suggest is tinkering with him in metagame... ie "John, you cannot do that cause it would mess up my game," or "it doesnt fit my idea of GH." He is playing it for fantasy, not to act out a script. It is great to have more freedom than you have in the real world.
Your the DM, you have plenty of tools to teach him why no one else in GH has made millions selling wands.
Remember, he is spending a feat to be able to do this. And he will be spending xp. In return hegets a bunch of extra gold. That is a very fair exchange. Remember, after a very short time he will not merely be lagging an encounter beyond the other PCs in gaining a level, but soon a full adventure, and then an entire level. If he can make up that power deficit with some more wands and some more toys that he purchases selling them, great. If not, he can take a different feat with his next character. I happen to like the versatility in getting the exact items I want with a magic item creation feat, but that is me. Other magic using builds are just as worthwhile, and many are more combat effective.
As for all the ways of separating him from his wealth, why? Are you going to send the same hordes of grubbers against the other PCs? If not, then such suggestions smell of petty DM revenge. Requiring him to find a city where people can afford 10,000+ gp wands is more than enough to keep things under control. Also, since no one mentioned it, combat wands have lower save DCs as well as (usually) lower damage potential. If in the long run it really becomes a problem, which I don't think it should, just make it clear that the feats are banned in the future. Of course if you do that, you should probably allow PCs to take a metamagic or spell focus feat or something similar instead of Scribe Scroll at 1st level. Those bonus feats are Wizard class abilities, and thus are part of the class balance. Removing the ability to make items for whatever reason affects that balance.
I think Sam has the right of it. Just make sure that your PC is following the rules. He will get tired of spending the XP soon enough. And always bear in mind that it's D&D (or whatever system you use) and the player should always be allowed to try
D&D 3.x has an amazing set of checks and balances to keep PC's from mass marketing magic - mostly in the form of XP.
OD&D jus made it HARD to make magic items. As the GM, it's also within your rights to make it harder to do something (expensive material components anyone?), just don't forget that the PC also gave up a feat slot (not to mention players around the world shudder at the thought of losing XP) to be able to do this! _________________ Michael Erin Sandar Bard of Midwood
And there is weight. 36000 gp (coins) weigh 720 lbs (3E/3.5E) You need about 25+ Strength to carry that. Easy target on a horse/mule etc. If he goes for jewels and gems, they are easier to steal with sleight of hand and who is going to change them back for coppers/gold at the inn?
Then is a magic tax. It does not have to in gold for your mages who want it quiet, it might be "For each 2 items you craft, you must make a payment of a similar item for the kingdom". Sieges and war take magic as well as men to win...
Samwise hit this on the head with his first sentence. "Let him."
Whilst the player becomes a manufacturer of wands, the rest of the players should be given adventure hook after adventure hook. Make it impossible for them to refuse and give them a sense of urgency to get going now and not wait for the 'tard making wands!
If the player truly enjoys the amassing of wealth in lieu of cracking skulls on the bad guys, fine.
I would suspect that this player will soon tire of the sedentary manufacturing life and look to take his wands on an adventure. Like many of the other posters suggested, if he is making a lot of these things, he is much more likely to run into someone that he has sold them to.
Hear, hear to those who have already pointed out that you need not worry too much about the damage potential. Here are the numbers:
A bog standard wand of fireballs does an average of 17.5 points of damage, or 8.75 on a successful save. It is possible to ratchet that up, but that makes it more expensive. Since (as Samwise has pointed out) the DC is going to be very low, you should expect enemies to make their save on a regular basis, especially at higher levels.
To get a bit of perspective, a Str 16 fighter with a greatsword does an average of 10 points of damage on a successful strike (before Power Attack, excluding criticals). Now, the fighter has to hit, can only do this to one person at a time (barring Feats), and needs to be next to the bad guy - but the fighter does not have to worry about fire resistance, evasion, SR, spell immunity, or accidentally toasting friends. In addition, the fighter is not effectively spending 112.5 gp every time (s)he takes a swing.
Moreover, once higher levels are hit, the PC's arcane acquaintances will be spending the standard actions (s)he is using to do 8.75 points of damage to bring up, e.g., acid fog (available from 11th level onwards; 7 points of damage PER ROUND, and terrain control, and it stays for a while, and SR does not work on it). Again, they are not spending 112.5 gp per round to do this.
Wands are a wonderful resource, and very useful in a tight spot, but without additional flanginess (mostly in the form of some bizarre Feat combos), they are not a great basis for a bread-and-butter offensive strategy.
PS Wands can get rather nasty in conjunction with some of the Artificer class abilities from Eberron, but I assume that those are not part of your campaign.
On the DC front, wands, like scrolls, are made at a minimum level of ability. A wand of fireballs will, as a standard, do 5d6 damage, Reflex save DC 14. That is likely 2 or 3 below his normal DC.
What wands are great for are spells without level and ability dependent factors, or where those factors are irrelevant, or reasonably overcome. A wand of magic missiles (9th level caster) is one of the few useful combat wands, provided you aren't facing anything with SR. Otherwise they are mostly for support spells like:
disrupt undead (as a back up)
protection from evil (for emergencies when the tank is dominated)
detect secret doors
and anything else you'd like to keep a dozen scrolls of around for "in case of emergency."
And of course, if you have a cleric with the feat, tons and tons of "happy sticks" aka, wands of cure light wounds. (Just give me a quiver of ehlonna full of those bad boys.)
Oh, and there are a few "peculiar" wand wielding feats in the Core expansion books as well. They can be as wonky as the Eberron feats Prochytes mentioned. (Actually combining them would be the worst. Dual wielding, wandstriking, metamagic empowering, enhanced, wand use. GAH!)
Well, you should certainly let him benefit from the feat in terms of making wands for himself. The xp and cash costs for doing so are certainly suitable balance for the capabilities of the wand in adventuring.
What is questionable is whether he should be allowed to sell as many wands at the "manufacturer's suggested retail price" or not. The feat is not a guarantee of the ability to make 5000 gold every two weeks. The experience point cost is hefty, but its up to the DM to determine the impact that much gold would have on the campaign. If you run a campaign that is "Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser" like (where the PCs get enormous loot and squander it quickly over and over again) the money is no big deal. If, on the other hand, you are running a campaign with tighter finances and the wand scheme would screw up the simulated economy you are running, you are certainly under no obligation to let him sell the wands at the standard price.
In general, I would recommend making it difficult for him to sell the wands and get the gold in the first place, rather than do too much of the 'giveth and taketh away" thing. Making it a challenge to get the money rather taking it away without them having much chance of recovering it tends to be unfun.
I also agree with those suggesting "let him". Samwise is right that if the character wishes to invest XP and an feat in this then he deserves some reward for it...and just as Samwise mentions - he will lag in XP eventually...it will even out.
I have noticed that my PCs have amassed a fortune in loot. The Against the Giant adventures are very treasure heavy. I don't particularly like this but it makes sense that the giants are wealthy due to their vast plundered gains.
Rather than cut down on loot I have encouraged my PCs to invest their money. Most of them by 11th level want a base - one has bought an inn in Greyhawk, another a town house, one is saving up to build a tree house in the Hornwood. Now the other two don't want leaving out and have even grander plans of castles and keeps. These thigns cost so much money to build and then to maintain that the welath they gain doesn't become a problem as it gets burnt up pretty quick.
I'm anal about paying inn fees and for food for themselves and chide them if adventurers of their means by a poor meal or stay at a poor inn. It's bad for their reputation. I suggest they buy new clothes to replace their old hacke dup ones that are beyond a mending spell - oh and why not buy a present for ur family back home you haven't seen for 7 months?
There are lots of fun creative ways to drain a PCs coffers.
Also - I find that the 3.5 rules negate th eneed for roleplaying...item creation feats are get quick feats...u do the maths and out pops a magic item. Rather than restricting the PC without good reason make sure that the ingredients needed for a wand of fireballs are hard to come by. Bronzewood treated in red dragon blood and inscribed with a ruby tipped tool and mounted with a flawless fire opal is much more fun than spend x gp. Perhaps the felling of a bronzewood tree to make enough wands would incur the wrath of a local druid. There are lots of ways to restrict ur PCs without having to say NO that can make the game fun for them.
By the rules, it costs 5,625 gp, 450 XP and 12 days to make a wand of fireballs... which he can then sell for 5,625 gp. :)
Umm, how do you figure that? The PHB clearly states the cost of materia to make the wand is 1/2 the retail price. If you go with straight pricing out of the book, he'll double his investment in each wand. If it costs 5625gp to make, then the 'market price' is defined as 11250gp.
"Market Price" is how much a PC can buy a wand for. PCs selling non-commodities (e.g. gems, coins, grain) always sell at half price. (see PHB).
That's an amazingly stupid "one size fits all" rule if that's literally what is says. (I'm too lazy to look "somewhere in the PHB" for it.). Yeah, players selling to regular merchants should be getting the wholesale price as a base, not the retail. Especially since they probably can't legally sell goods except to authorized retailers anyway, unless they are part of the relevant guild or guilds. But a rule that says that a craftsman may only sell at a loss (since he can't cover labor, much less xp) is boneheaded. Unless he's stupid enough to make wands for sale without being part of whatever guild regulates such things. If that's the case, he should consider himself lucky to cover his costs without being tossed in jail.
No, it's just a very useful rule for games that aren't set up for the PCs as merchants. :)
Actually, there are rules in the DMG2 and other sources for PCs running businesses (as well as using Craft and Profession skills) - the point being that making a wand of fireballs for sale isn't normal for D&D PCs, and is easily discouraged if the DM so wishes it.
If running a business *does* sound fun, then consider taxes, duties, guilds, supply & demand, etc. Although you could sell the wand for full price, how often does someone want one?
I think everyone agrees with let him, and yet many of us then suggest ways to seperate him and his wealth. I think this is for two reasons: 1) it is probably the realistic result of behaving this way in a real GH, and 2) it gives you options if he continues to take it extremes, without disruptiung the game terribly.
Taking the PC's money is generally not seen as unusual in my games, as the PDs are chronically cash short anyway.... Their clothes get dirty, worn out, etc., they want to look good. My parties have spent a great deal of money over the years just buying clothes. Of course, if they are nicely dressed, they may often get circumstance bonuses for certain situations.
I just wanted to say thank you all for your input! Unfortunately, I may lose the player in the end. It seems that the WoG is just too difficult a place to play in, having to deal with NPC's and having consequences for character actions (so I called lightning on the heads of three innocent local fishermen in Gradsul, why is the law after me?). My player feels that the WoG is too convoluted and he would rather return to his other campaign where his characters go fight gods (and kill them) epic style.
No, I'm not kidding.
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