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    Canonfire :: View topic - The Savage Tide premieres at Paizo
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    The Savage Tide premieres at Paizo [ Previous  1, 2]
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:37 pm  

    GVD: “The LGJ entry defines the conquered area as that "between the Hellfurnaces and Jeklea Bay."

    I don’t think so. Rather, I choose to read that as an expression of intent, and not very complete or precise one at that. But this is Tavish the Great we are taking about. IMO, he accomplished his intent as much as was reasonably possible. He went south and set himself up and was unchallenged. But that does not mean he had power over ever bit of the Hold.

    What does conquer mean?

    verb: overcome by conquest
    verb: take possession of by force, as after an invasion
    verb: to put down by force or authority

    These can each mean different things.

    What does it mean anyway to “conquer the wilderness”. The tame areas were not conquered, but all the wild areas were? Hardly.

    Just moving his army south made him the greatest power in the land. But he did not control everything. He could threaten Hokar and the Plar of Hool, but he could not administer everything. Berghoff would willingly bow. He could not really do much at all about the wild Flan and Humanoid, except where he put his army, and generally they were not worth the effort. An army cannot be everywhere at once. Given the fact that there are still numerous humanoid, I think that much of the Hold is still unsettled.

    He did build Monmurg and I think the point of that was to give him a navel base from which to control the coasts and the islands. To the extent the size of his fleet and the islands communities would allow, I think it is fair to say he had control over them. But I think there are many islands, not just the big ones, and at best he could only threaten communities and patrol the waters, not hunt down every possible pirate or settle every small island. There are probably still some proto-Olman on some of those small islands who never new the Olman empire, let alone Tavish. I do not know, but I suspect one of the reasons he went thought the Hool was because his navy was not as large as the Toli, which, IMO, was not the full scope of the island pirates. So, I think it likely that Keoland never fully controlled the islands. But for all practical purposes, it could do a whole lot with them.

    I think that would be consistent with the spirit of ’83 in relation to subsequent history: The pirates “numbers and strength had become so great, however, that the Keoish fleet, even with the aid of a squadron of Ulek warships, could at best deliver a sharp check to them (Battle of Jetsom Island). This lesson caused their leaders to rethink their policies …”
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    Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:25 pm  

    Wolfsire wrote:
    GVD: “The LGJ entry defines the conquered area as that "between the Hellfurnaces and Jeklea Bay."

    I don’t think so. Rather, I choose to read that as an expression of intent, and not very complete or precise one at that. But this is Tavish the Great we are taking about. IMO, he accomplished his intent as much as was reasonably possible. He went south and set himself up and was unchallenged. But that does not mean he had power over ever bit of the Hold.

    . . .

    He did build Monmurg and I think the point of that was to give him a navel base from which to control the coasts and the islands. To the extent the size of his fleet and the islands communities would allow, I think it is fair to say he had control over them. But I think there are many islands, not just the big ones, and at best he could only threaten communities and patrol the waters, not hunt down every possible pirate or settle every small island. . . . So, I think it likely that Keoland never fully controlled the islands. But for all practical purposes, it could do a whole lot with them.


    I have no hesitation agreeing with the idea that Keoland attempted to control the islands and could launch raids against them from the mainland. My problem is reading canon to suggest the islands were either pacified or occupied or both (ie "conquered") by Keoland; that I do not see from the text for reasons previously discussed.

    Within the "conquered" area of the mainland, I again agree in the main. The extent of the "conquest" in terms of "cultivation" is sufficiently fluid that the precise extent of control much beyond Westkeep is open to interpretation. A strict reading would still leave areas of the Hold outside the central "cultivated" area, yet still within the broad zone of "conquest." I think a fair reading is that the Keolanders advanced far inland then pulled back to more defensible borders that emphasized those areas of the Hold most easily cultivated and hence profitable. The idea that Keoland took, "conquered," the entirety of the Hold (especially if the islands are included) and then held it in absolute terms is, to me, contraindicated by the text and, as against any opposition from within the Hold, a silly idea on its face. While canon could be written to make this idea not silly, canon does not support such a notion internally (in terms of the setting) or textually, purely reading the text as text.

    In other words, IMR -

    Keoland marched through the mainland Hold, "conquering" it in the sense of overcoming all immediate opposition. Keoland then pulled back to an area, anchored by Westkeep, that was the most easily cultivated and hence worth keeping - the "central" area. Keoland never conquered, and certainly never occupied, Flotsam, Jetsom or Fairwind Island. This from reading the text as text (most strongly on the last point and less strongly otherwise).

    And in my thought -

    Looking at the setting not the text, Keoland was projecting power over large distances with extended supply lines with medieval technology (medieval armies tended to forage and even as late as Napoleon, burning your fields tended to starve an invader) and over a very large area at that distance. To imagine anything near a complete domination or control under these circumstances strikes me as ultimately silly, the more so for local opposition, monsters, humanoids etc. which you mention. Adding three amphibious invasions for Flotsam, Jetsom and Fairwind Islands(even if the landings were unapposed) and then the continuing supply and support for the landed forces on three separate islands stretches (again with any opposition, monstersm humanoids etc.) credulity even more.

    THEN, if we get back to the subject of the thread and toss Sassrerine into the mix (and maybe some of the Amedio) as also perhaps being controlled or occupied by Keoland at the same time and silly becomes down right . . . You get the idea.
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    Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:15 pm  

    Behave GVD and Samwise Confused

    Whether, Keoland occupied all the hold (including islands) or not, is open to interpretation. Personally I feel the area and climate of the hold is too large to rule with an iron hand no doubt their were various levels of control; depending on policy and troops avaliable much like any occupied land, no doubt there was plenty of false smiles for the Keoland authorites as the "merchant ships" once in the Azure Sea became opportunist pirates and merchants once again back at port with plenty of smuggling, fences and bribes.

    Whether the discontent was organized (samwise) or simply seized upon by a charismatic captain when Keoland attention was elsewhere is both workable.

    Back to Sasserine: I like the posts of txwad, especially since the french crown surrendered french canada to keep 3 carribean sugar islands, given the boom economy I can see the Noveau riche convinced the wealth will always flow hearing of the culture of GH builds an over the top Opera house (theatre). Some cultural projects are more a matter of prestige and communial asperations, or simply a personal obsession of a wealthy benefactor.

    Found several mining boom towns that have shown such hubris - one in northern canada built a 50 mile telegraph system that was never connected with the coast or another town built a cinema even though at the time there was no way to deliver movies to their remote location for 4-5 years.
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    Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:09 pm  

    Quote:
    The idea that Keoland took, "conquered," the entirety of the Hold (especially if the islands are included) and then held it in absolute terms is, to me, contraindicated by the text and, as against any opposition from within the Hold, a silly idea on its face.


    Really, the text doesn't contraindicate that. That's not to say the Keoish had a garrison of royal troops in every town, but the local rulers paid their taxes, fealty and homage to Niole Dra and didn't kick up any notable rebellions until the time of the Sea Prince.

    Quote:
    Keoland marched through the mainland Hold, "conquering" it in the sense of overcoming all immediate opposition. Keoland then pulled back to an area, anchored by Westkeep, that was the most easily cultivated and hence worth keeping - the "central" area. Keoland never conquered, and certainly never occupied, Flotsam, Jetsom or Fairwind Island. This from reading the text as text (most strongly on the last point and less strongly otherwise).


    You can read that into it, but it's not the only possible interpretation. The fact that Monmurg was founded by the Keoish suggests otherwise, since why build a port city if you're just holding the central lands? Why build a port city on a promontory like that if you don't have a fleet to defend it and project from it? The logistical issues you bring up below are greatly eased if you have maritime lines of supply - hence Monmurg, hence a strong Keoish naval presence there, hence, with no great stretch of the imagination, subdued isles.

    Quote:
    Looking at the setting not the text, Keoland was projecting power over large distances with extended supply lines with medieval technology (medieval armies tended to forage and even as late as Napoleon, burning your fields tended to starve an invader) and over a very large area at that distance. To imagine anything near a complete domination or control under these circumstances strikes me as ultimately silly, the more so for local opposition, monsters, humanoids etc. which you mention.


    Like the way the Keoish projected power into Ket? Or the Aerdi into Ferrond, Voll and the Quaglands? Or the Romans projected power into Britannia, Spain, Dacia, Pontus, Armenia, Egypt, Carthage and Mesopotamia (to name but a few)? Or like Alexander projected power into Persia, the Trans-Oxus and the Punjab? Or Hannibal projected power into Italy? Or the Mongols projected power into, well nearly everwhere east of Hungary. Or the Crusaders projected power into the Levant? Smile

    Quote:
    Adding three amphibious invasions for Flotsam, Jetsom and Fairwind Islands(even if the landings were unapposed) and then the continuing supply and support for the landed forces on three separate islands stretches (again with any opposition, monstersm humanoids etc.) credulity even more.


    Eh - well no, such amphibious landings aren't exactly going to be Guadalcanal or Omaha Beach (more Pevensy, though without a big Saxon army bearing down on them) and besides, all the Keoish need to do is cow the locals into submission. They don't have to occupy every hamlet - they just need to get the local lords/chiefs to bend the knee, pay taxes and keep doing that on pain of having their ships and strongholds burnt, their titles given to someone else and their heads taken to adorn the gates of Monmurg.

    Quote:
    THEN, if we get back to the subject of the thread and toss Sassrerine into the mix (and maybe some of the Amedio) as also perhaps being controlled or occupied by Keoland at the same time and silly becomes down right . . .


    Not at all. A Keoish flotilla sails down, blockades the port, pillages Sasserine's arable hinterland and waits for the garrison to starve, die of malaria or come to terms. Sasserine's prosperity depends on trade (since aside from Cauldron, all its potential markets are overseas). Step on Sasserine's lifeline with a naval blockade and you'll soon bring the wealthy of the town to heel and make them ameanable to monetary persuasion and promises of Keoish titles.
    [/quote]
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    Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:13 pm  

    I like more the notion, not of an economic boom causing population expantions, but hoards of Suel, depopulated of their best warriors by the tSB, running for sanctuary in Sassy from the revitalized Olman nations. The insta-poll of the Dawn Council are actually food and "race" riots (uncivilized Suel v. the civilized townspeopl). Bar fight with a Child of Llerg?
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    Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:42 pm  

    Woesinger wrote:
    . . . snip . . .


    Sorry. I am not persuaded and stand by my previous textual analysis.

    Woesinger wrote:
    Like the way the Keoish projected power into Ket? Or the Aerdi into Ferrond, Voll and the Quaglands? Or the Romans projected power into Britannia, Spain, Dacia, Pontus, Armenia, Egypt, Carthage and Mesopotamia (to name but a few)? Or like Alexander projected power into Persia, the Trans-Oxus and the Punjab? Or Hannibal projected power into Italy? Or the Mongols projected power into, well nearly everwhere east of Hungary. Or the Crusaders projected power into the Levant? Smile


    All inapposite in my view. All to one degree or another involved land powers moving substantially over land to project their power, even the Crusades in the main. None involved simultaneous landward invasions and distinctly separate seaborn invasions, let alone three. Now if the crusaders had moved overland from the north into the Levant while simultaneously invading Cyprus, Crete and Malta, or even in a series, you'd have me sold. They didn't. I'm not.

    Just as a note, the idea of Keoland executing an island hoping campaign from Flotsam to Jetsom to Fairwind, taking them one at a time, like some medieval McArthur out of the Pacific strikes me as even more absurd. Particularly given the text we have to work with.

    People are entitled to their own reads of the text, of course. That includes me. Smile
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    Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:47 pm  

    Crag wrote:
    Whether, Keoland occupied all the hold (including islands) or not, is open to interpretation.


    I can agree with this. I doubt some others can say the same. Therein, lies the rub.

    Crag wrote:
    Back to Sasserine: I like the posts of txwad, especially since the french crown surrendered french canada to keep 3 carribean sugar islands, given the boom economy I can see the Noveau riche convinced the wealth will always flow hearing of the culture of GH builds an over the top Opera house (theatre). Some cultural projects are more a matter of prestige and communial asperations, or simply a personal obsession of a wealthy benefactor.

    Found several mining boom towns that have shown such hubris - one in northern canada built a 50 mile telegraph system that was never connected with the coast or another town built a cinema even though at the time there was no way to deliver movies to their remote location for 4-5 years.


    I am similarly inclined to view the opera house. Its a white elephant, likely of only recent vintage.
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    Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:51 pm  

    Wolfsire wrote:
    I like more the notion, not of an economic boom causing population expantions, but hoards of Suel, depopulated of their best warriors by the tSB, running for sanctuary in Sassy from the revitalized Olman nations.


    I'm right there with you on the revitalized Olman. I'm thinking, however, more that Sassy might act as a "middle man" between the Olman and the rest of the Flanaess. But I'm not wedded to that idea. I'm waiting to see the promised visit to Tamoachan in the AP and to see how that is handled.
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    Wed Sep 13, 2006 9:14 pm  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    All inapposite in my view. All to one degree or another involved land powers moving substantially over land to project their power, even the Crusades in the main. None involved simultaneous landward invasions and distinctly separate seaborn invasions, let alone three. Now if the crusaders had moved overland from the north into the Levant while simultaneously invading Cyprus, Crete and Malta, or even in a series, you'd have me sold. They didn't. I'm not.


    You obviously have little knowledge of the course of events of the Crusades. Indeed, your historical analyses seem consistently flawed to the point of being little more than wild guesses. Since the obvious seems to escaped your notice, I will merely note that no simultaneous invasions or anything equally ludicrous was needed. Tavish the Great merely had to conquer the mainland, then invade one island, then the next, then the last. A series of campaigns, not some simultaneous annexation of all existence. That you would create such a scenario, insist it is the only possible one, assert by fiat that it is impossible, and then declare your theories proven as a result is not merely engaging in logical fallacies, but a rather poor effort at that.

    Quote:
    Just as a note, the idea of Keoland executing an island hoping campaign from Flotsam to Jetsom to Fairwind, taking them one at a time, like some medieval McArthur out of the Pacific strikes me as even more absurd. Particularly given the text we have to work with.


    Again you demonstrate your sheer ignorance of history. That is not how the island hopping strategy of MacArthur worked in the Pacific in WW II.

    Everyone is indeed entitled to an opinion. However, not every opinion is of equal worth.
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    Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:41 am  

    GVDammerung wrote:

    Sorry. I am not persuaded and stand by my previous textual analysis.


    The vigour and detail of your counterargument is noted. ::shrugs::

    GVDammerung wrote:
    All inapposite in my view. All to one degree or another involved land powers moving substantially over land to project their power, even the Crusades in the main. None involved simultaneous landward invasions and distinctly separate seaborn invasions, let alone three. Now if the crusaders had moved overland from the north into the Levant while simultaneously invading Cyprus, Crete and Malta, or even in a series, you'd have me sold. They didn't. I'm not.


    Take a read of the history of the Persian campaigns into Greece, Arrian's Campaigns of Alexander and any history of the Crusades and you'll see that similtaneous naval and land operations are not only possible, but often necessary for logistics - especially in a coastal territory.

    Your Crusades example isn't terribly apposite either, given the amount of sea between Malta, Crete, Cyprus and Palestine, compared to the comparatively tight distribution of the Hold and its isles. That said, Richard the Lionheart did take Cyprus (the closest isle and still farther from Palestine than the Isles are from the mainland Hold) from the rebel Byzantine Isaac Komnenus en route to the Third Crusade. He conquered the island in short order and it's noted that it gave him a vital supply base for his campaign in Palestine. And this was an English king, many hundreds of miles from his nearest holding, as opposed to the Keoish for whom the Hold is next door.

    Now similtaneous operations does not mean that the Keoish have to invade every where at the same zero hour. It means that they can maintain a fleet at sea and an army in the field. The fleet helps keep the army supplied, and gives it an element of strategic mobility it wouldn't otherwise have. Looking at the map of the Hold and given the location of Monmurg, it's hard to see how the Keoish could have established the city and left the isles unconquered or at least unsubdued, given the threat any opposition would have posed to supply lines between Gradsul and Monmurg.

    GVDammerung wrote:
    Just as a note, the idea of Keoland executing an island hoping campaign from Flotsam to Jetsom to Fairwind, taking them one at a time, like some medieval McArthur out of the Pacific strikes me as even more absurd. Particularly given the text we have to work with.


    Which is why I specifically ruled that out in my post.

    You can hold what opinion you like, but I don't think that it's terribly reasonable.
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    Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:13 am  

    Monmurg placed as it is is useless any sort of serious opposition on Flotsam and Jetsom. Strong naval elements operating from those islands or the presumed smaller ones around would be a crippling threat to Monmurg as a supply source. And if Monmurg's fleet was strong enough to escort the convoys in safely, its hard to believe its not strong enough to transport an army to the islands.

    Did the Keoish have uncontested control of the Jeklea such that unarmed merchant vessels could blithely sail hither and thither? Hardly. England didn't have the kind of control of its own coasts to stop rampant piracy until well after the medieval era. But the idea that Keoland didn't dominate the region in naval strength is just not reasonable given the rest of the material.
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    Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:58 am  

    A month or so ago, I caught on the history channel a program called “The Real Pirates of the Caribbean.” It referenced something I had only nominally heard of, Queen Anne’s war, and went into the subsequent suppression of piracy. Any of you history buffs want to take a shot at applying that?

    I guess it might be possible for something like that to involve GK in Sassy, that is to say, maybe GK sent a few ships to stir things up for Tavish to keep him in check. Just a WAG.
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    Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:36 am  

    Woesinger wrote:
    Take a read of the history of the Persian campaigns into Greece, Arrian's Campaigns of Alexander and any history of the Crusades and you'll see that similtaneous naval and land operations are not only possible, but often necessary for logistics - especially in a coastal territory.


    "Logistics." That is correct. "similtaneous naval and land operations," particularly moving troops into Asia Minor where they would then march overland to the Levant. That is also correct. The predominant role played by land operations, however, predominated. The most successful crusades featured overland marches through Asia Minor. Landings directly into the Levant were usually minor and either fascilitated by allied parties already operating on the mainland, diplomatic manuvers, landings or landings of such overwhelming force that the enemy retreated to within its walls to await seige and relief. I don't see your position as unreasonable as much as I think we are emphasizing different parts of the same equation, none of which existed in isolation.

    Woesinger wrote:
    Your Crusades example isn't terribly apposite either, given the amount of sea between Malta, Crete, Cyprus and Palestine, compared to the comparatively tight distribution of the Hold and its isles. That said, Richard the Lionheart did take Cyprus (the closest isle and still farther from Palestine than the Isles are from the mainland Hold) from the rebel Byzantine Isaac Komnenus en route to the Third Crusade. He conquered the island in short order and it's noted that it gave him a vital supply base for his campaign in Palestine. And this was an English king, many hundreds of miles from his nearest holding, as opposed to the Keoish for whom the Hold is next door.


    No argument. The proximinity is different but it still illustrates the general point. As for Richard, he landed with the agreement of Comnenus. They negotiated a deal. Comenus reniged and retreated to his fortress. Richard had control of the island almost immediately as Comenus all but abandoned it to him. I don't see this as a good example.

    Woesinger wrote:
    Now similtaneous operations does not mean that the Keoish have to invade every where at the same zero hour. It means that they can maintain a fleet at sea and an army in the field. The fleet helps keep the army supplied, and gives it an element of strategic mobility it wouldn't otherwise have. Looking at the map of the Hold and given the location of Monmurg, it's hard to see how the Keoish could have established the city and left the isles unconquered or at least unsubdued, given the threat any opposition would have posed to supply lines between Gradsul and Monmurg.


    As I indicated, the idea of an "island hoping campaign" ala McArthur strikes me as beyond silly. A strategic harrying? As I indicated in another post, I see no difficulty. The difficulty comes in for me of imagining, even allowing "island hoping," of maintaining supply lines that need to flow to three fairly large islands (four if you count Sybarite) and the mainland. If Keoland emptied itself of levies and spent its treasury on fleets of ships, I could believe it had the force to pull this off but that would require a dangerously high commitment of resourses, all to the south - unless we see the Hold as just a pushover, which I do not.

    Could it be done? If Keoland mortaged itself to get it done, okay. Sure. I just don't see any sane kingdom doing that, however. Given then only a commitment of troops comensurate with the limited importance of the Hold to Keoland (which is largely a land power), I don't see the forces necessary to pull it off being allocated. And maintaining that I see no support for it in the text. Wink

    Woesinger wrote:
    You can hold what opinion you like, but I don't think that it's terribly reasonable.


    There is, I think, a common wisdom that is born, in large measure, out of 1) a strong advocacy, on one hand and
    2) a creeping tendency within canon to accentuate Keoland as a means of adding color to the SW Flanaess.
    The latter, when taken up with the former, creates a "momentum" that anticipates further accentuation, further feeding the momentum. In my view, accentuating Keoland as a means to add color and detail to the SW Flanaess is fine. Like anything else, however, the urge can go too far. And this is what I'm seeing - the promotion, even hucksterism, of Keoland as Aerdi south by southwest.

    Is that a good idea? Is this reasonable?

    Momentum can too easily replace thought and reflection with motion. The possible becomes the probable and then the certain in the rush forward.

    The volume of the feeling that Sasserine is somehow illegitimate or ill concieved because no mention is made of a role for Keoland is emblematic. It is an outsized reaction to a minor slight.
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    Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:55 am  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    Monmurg placed as it is is useless any sort of serious opposition on Flotsam and Jetsom. Strong naval elements operating from those islands or the presumed smaller ones around would be a crippling threat to Monmurg as a supply source. And if Monmurg's fleet was strong enough to escort the convoys in safely, its hard to believe its not strong enough to transport an army to the islands.

    Did the Keoish have uncontested control of the Jeklea such that unarmed merchant vessels could blithely sail hither and thither? Hardly. England didn't have the kind of control of its own coasts to stop rampant piracy until well after the medieval era. But the idea that Keoland didn't dominate the region in naval strength is just not reasonable given the rest of the material.


    Monmurg shields Westkeep, which is the primary supply point for Keoland in the Hold. Monmurg's utility is not to control the Jeklea Islands or to act as a source of supply but to make sure the coastal route to Westkeep remains open. Westkeep is the anchor for Keoland's expansion and maintainence of a position in the centeral lands of the Hold, most easily cultivated and hence profitable. Monmurg accomplishes its purpose without the need to control the islands, which would entail further cost without equal gain.

    The money is in the centeral Hold. Westkeep is key to holding that area. Monmurg protects Westkeep from the pirates of the Bay and does so whether or not Keoland holds the Jeklea Islands.

    IMV, the Jeklea Islands are a sideshow in the Hold. Monmurg secures the coast and the way to Westkeep from Gradsul, its primary functions. Westkeep is the key to holding the central, cultivatable and profitable Hold. Unless the islands hold fantastic wealth, with Monmurg in place, Keoland had no reason to go to the expense of trying to invade and hold the Jeklea Islands. It would be cost without commensurate gain.
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    Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:24 am  

    GVDammerung wrote:

    There is, I think, a common wisdom that is born, in large measure, out of 1) a strong advocacy, on one hand and
    2) a creeping tendency within canon to accentuate Keoland as a means of adding color to the SW Flanaess.
    The latter, when taken up with the former, creates a "momentum" that anticipates further accentuation, further feeding the momentum. In my view, accentuating Keoland as a means to add color and detail to the SW Flanaess is fine. Like anything else, however, the urge can go too far. And this is what I'm seeing - the promotion, even hucksterism, of Keoland as Aerdi south by southwest.

    Is that a good idea? Is this reasonable?

    Momentum can too easily replace thought and reflection with motion. The possible becomes the probable and then the certain in the rush forward.

    The volume of the feeling that Sasserine is somehow illegitimate or ill concieved because no mention is made of a role for Keoland is emblematic. It is an outsized reaction to a minor slight.


    Sorry, but you are completely off the wall here, GVD. There is no 'volume of feeling" about Keoland until you made a big deal about it not being relevant. Before that, the objections were all about size, sophistication, geography, and timeline.

    Frankly, I don't understand your island hopping argument at all. I can't see any parallels between island hopping and Keoish domination of the islands of the hold. Island hopping was a strategy all about selectively invading some islands and dominating the rest by means of airpower. Landing on a couple pretty large islands that are nearby isn't anything like that.

    The simple fact is that a number of posters disagree with your reading of the text, feeling it is unduly narrow. I, for instance, don't find it reasonable to have Tavish build Monmurg if the nearby islands weren't pacified. No one is arguing that Keoland garrisoned all those islands and controlled them the way they do their home territory. England didn't manage to control even the Scilly Islands to that extent for a long time. But they were English territory, with English Lords, and payed the crown taxes. They were also a haven for pirates and smugglers at the same time.

    Sorry, but countering our arguments with a lame "Sam is brainwashing you" is both nonsense and insulting.
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    Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:28 am  

    Umm, Westkeep the malarial swamp city with trade only through the dangerous Hool Marshes? I don't quite buy that one, either.
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    Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:01 pm  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    The simple fact is that a number of posters disagree with your reading of the text, feeling it is unduly narrow.


    I don't hold it against any of you. Smile
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    Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:06 pm  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    Prochytes wrote:
    Two riffs on the "hiding of Sasserine":

    1. The Sea Prince of old was not trying to "hide" Sasserine. He was trying to "unname" it. The city had incurred his displeasure, so he actualized his wrath by striking out written references to it. I am envisaging a procedure here something like the Roman damnatio memoriae or the following bit from the wonderful catalogue of the winds of the desert in The English Patient:

    Quote:
    "There is also the ------, the secret wind of the desert, whose name was erased by a king after his son died within it."


    Now, a damnatio memoriae was usually done to the dead, and winds cannot tell anyone what their name is. Sasserine was still there, and people were not going to forget that. The Sea Prince knew this, of course, but what mattered was the grand ideological gesture, not actual success. His successors or rivals, however, in their eagerness to defame him, started putting about the "and he was such a nutjob that he thought he could make people forget about a city by doing this" party-line that is now the current orthodoxy about what happened.

    2. A more grandiloquent take on this is that the effacement of Sasserine's name from written sources was a necessary ritual preliminary to an epic spell aimed at deleting Sasserine's Truename from the Language Primaeval. The Sea Prince (still angry at the city but, in this scenario, probably a real nutjob) was intent upon erasing the town from reality overnight. This enterprise failed, of course, but a garbled version of what he was about entered the folk-lore. Hence, again, the current orthodoxy.

    A nice twist on this could be that, with the right caster, the spell might actually have worked - and the fragmentary notes for it are still somewhere in the Hold of the Sea Princes. Something for one's Sasserine PCs to face when they finish the Adventure Path and go Epic, perhaps... Smile


    This is another, IMO, brilliant idea! I like both notions but especially the latter use of truename magic at an epic level. This is right good stuff! Happy And I think I'm going to use it IMC. Happy Thank you!


    Prochytes,

    I think you are a hit. Happy James Jacobs likes your idea as do others. I think you may have resolved the "hiding" of Sasserine. Smile Great thinking! Happy

    Check your mail.
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    Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:39 pm  

    Why would anyone use Epic magic to hide an out of the way port on the fringes of civilization.
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    Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:34 pm  
    hidden city

    This whole 'hidden city'' thing seems contrived. The Carthaginians used to B S people about the oceanic conditions outside of the Pillars of Hercules, saying it was impassable in many areas, due to shallow waters and silt. The spread those rumors to help protect their lucrative trade route with Britain. Cannot remember my source for this. Maybe Herodotus? Maybe a Roman author? Of course , it did not work in the long run. They also did not have magic . I guess you could have concealed Sasserine, but would it really be worth going to such extremes? I don't know.Is the spice trade dependent on Sasserine, or was it at the time? I suppose a near monopoly held by the Sea Princes would be worth going all out to hide the city, if it were vital to the trade.
    What I really wonder is: did the author decide to have the city hidden? A story related reason? Just to explain why it isn't on older GH maps?
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    Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:45 pm  

    Crag wrote:
    Why would anyone use Epic magic to hide an out of the way port on the fringes of civilization.


    That is the question indeed! How does not explain why.
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    Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:47 pm  

    The Crusades have been perhaps the closest analogy that has been drawn to any hypothetical attempt by Keoland to take the Jeklea Islands, during the time Keoland is noted in canon as having conquered the Hold of the Sea Princes from “the Hellfurnaces to Jeklea Bay.” The point of contention, although shifting in the ebb and flow of posts, has principally been on my part at least the ability of Keoland to land invasion forces on Flotsam, Jetsom and Fairwind Islands (include Sybarite Island based on the Dungeon Map of the Flanaess) in the face of likely resistence by the Holders, who are known to be able seamen and are already established on the islands.

    The Crusades have been offered up as an example of the feasibility of landing forces along a hostile coast before proceeding with a territorial conquest. I have dissented and have been ridiculed as ignorant of the true facts of the Crusades that are alleged to support the feasibility proposition. Not having ever found the Crusades so fascinating as to have memorized all of their large details, and the Internet sources being extremely general in their discussion of the Crusades, I have been limited to a response premised on memory, a general recollection. However, with sufficient time to rummage through my shelves, I have been able to confirm that my general recollection is accurate - the naval landings of the Crusades were primarily unopposed. What follows is a brief summary, focusing primarily on how the Crusaders got to the Levant.

    1st Crusade - Proceeded in 3 distinct waves. 1st and 2nd waves never reached the Levant. The second wave marched overland from the Byzantine Empire, through Asia Minor to take Antioch in 1097. Thereafter, reinforcement arrived by ship in 1097 (French and Italian), 1098 (English), 1099 (Italian) and 1102 (Italian). These reinforcements landing by sea all landed in areas already conquered by the 2nd wave that moved overland.

    2nd Crusade - Main force of crusaders marched overland from the Byzantine Empire, through Asia Minor in 1148. Secondary German force lands in Acre which is in Christian hands. Miscellaneous English, Spanish and French forces follow. Main crusading force goes over land and naval reinforcements land without opposition.

    3rd Crusade - The most apposite example. In 1190, German force under Frederick Barbarossa marches overland intending to reach the Levant through Asia Minor but substantially aborts when Barbarossa dies en route. In March 1191, French force sails directly to Acre, in Muslim hands, and lay seige. The Muslims, however, do not sally forth to give battle or oppose the landing but remain in Acre, which is a rough triangle protected by water on two sides and a wall and landward defenses on the third, awaiting relief from Saladin. Despite Acre being in Muslim hands, the landing is unopposed. In June 1191, Richard of England arrives from Cyprus and lands unopposed in Christian held land outside Acre. In July 1191, Acre surrenders to the Crusaders and the French depart. Richard marches for Jerusalem being constantly supplied by sea.

    4th Crusade - Aborts in Constantinople. Never reaches the Levant.

    5th Crusade - In 1218, Crusaders from the Levant invade Egypt by sea, landing unopposed in the Nile Delta, to establish a beachhead. They are reinforced by English and French forces arriving by sea, between 1218 and 1221. They are further reinforced in 1221 by Louis of Bavaria arriving by sea. Secondary and tertiary forces land in the friendly Christian rear. The Crusade quickly bogs down and is aborted.

    6th Crusade - Largely a diplomatic effort in 1228 with little fighting. Crusaders land in the Levant in friendly territory unopposed.

    7th Crusade (St. Louis I) - Disaster. At horrendous expense to the French crown - 1,537, 570 livres when annual royal revenues were 250,000 livres. Landing in Egypt in 1248 was largely unopposed as Egyptians retreated. Was best funded, provisioned and supplied crusade.

    8th Crusade (St. Louis II) - Disaster. Louis returns to Egypt. Egyptians repeat tactics of 1248, giving up initial beach head and luring crusaders inland to be destroyed.

    9th Crusade - Crusaders give it one more try. Land unopposed in Christian held lands.

    As I said in previous posts, the crusades, certainly the most successful early crusades, proceeded overland in the main body. Where seaborn landings occurred, they went variously unopposed. Unless the Holders are imagined to roll over for invaders from Keoland, the Crusades are not the best example upon which to draw for the feasibility of an opposed landing let alone 3 or 4 in Jeklea Bay, simultaneous with mainland operations.

    At this juncture it is possible to usefully reflect on how the Crusaders were supplied. This involves two considerations - materials and men (other than the crusader levies from Europe).

    At the time of the First Crusade, the Mediterranean was a European lake. Muslim fleets were virtually nonexistent, accounting in part for why landings went so unopposed. The Genoese, Pisans, Sicilians and most especially the Venetians monopolized trade and could freely support crusaders operating in the Levant. These merchant powers were highly motivated to do so as the Muslims controlled valuable trade from the east that the crusaders promised to the merchant powers in substantial degree should the crusades be successful. The merchants were exempted from taxes. They were granted control of towns. And they were freed from paying Muslim middle men. Stopping here, there is no parallel to Keoland and Jeklea Bay. No powers resembling the Genoese, Pisans, Sicilians and the Venetians offer logistical support to hypothetical Keoland invaders of the the Jeklea Islands and Jeklea Bay is not a Keoland Lake as the Holders have their own navies. Keoland itself has only a single major port in Gradsul (throw in Gyrax for good measure). The Crusade model again breaks down.

    The Crusaders also enjoyed a supply of trained military men standing outside the national forces. These were the international knightly orders, most famously the Templars and Hospitallers. These orders offered trained military forces, their independent treasuries and their own supply networks to the crusaders. Keoland in the Hold has no such allies. The Crusades are then again not an exact fit.

    Looking to the Crusades as a feasibility study returns questionable results. At every turn, a comparison with Keoland in the Hold, with specific reference to the Jeklea Islands, sees Keoland lacking the various advantages of the crusaders. And we only now mention the religious fervor that motivated the crusades but is lacking looking at Keoland in the Hold.

    Before leaving the crusades as a model of feasibility for Keoland in the Hold, there is a point to be made in connection with the 3rd Crusade - Richard’s taking of Cyprus. Briefly -

    Prior to Richard’s arrival in the Levant, he landed on the island of Cyprus to resolve a conflict with its ruler, Issac Comnenus. On May 12, 1191, Richard landed under diplomatic flag at Limasol. Negotiations with Issac went well and a resolution of the dispute between Issac and Richard was agreed to. Issac, however, almost immediately denounced the agreement and ordered Richard and his forces from the island. Then began the chase. Issac fled Limasol for Famagusta. Richard followed by sea, taking Famagusta unopposed as Issac had already fled Famagusta for Nicosia in the interior. Garrisoning Famagusta, Richard followed. Issac next fled Nicosia for Tremthus. Richard followed. At Tremthus Issac made his stand and his forces were beaten, but not before Issac once again took flight. Issac fled Tremthus for Kantara. On May 31, 1191, less tan a month after Richard’s initial landing, Issac surrendered at Kantara. During the chase, Richard’s forces took Kolossi, St. Hilarion, Kyrenia and Buffavento. The first securing Richard’s rear at Limasol and the last three securing his rear after Nicosia. None were fought with but token forces.

    While there is something to be said for Richard’s progress during the 3rd Crusade, it is only a superficial resemblance to a hypothetical Keoland invasion of the Jeklea Islands. As many factors demonstrate the resemblance, more are sharply different.

    Meaning no disrespect to Woesinger, I am not persuaded that the Crusades are a good model for Keoland in the Hold, and especially the Jeklea Islands. I do not mean to lecture Woesinger as, while we have disagreed, he has been unfailingly polite; neither to I assume he will agree. I mean to illustrate my point with sufficient detail that each reader can better make up their own mind.

    In closing, if anyone would like a nice summary book on the Crusades, particularly in terms of maps of how the Crusades unfolded, I recommend The Atlas of the Crusades by Riley-Smith. I believe it is now available in a softback edition.
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    Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:02 pm  

    From chat:

    Quote:

    <GLH_PSmedger> I imagine an author's opinion will be irrelevant to the heated debaters. ;-)
    <rip> Author's opinions are noncanon. :)
    <rip> Just to be clear, though, you didn't intend for the Keoish to stick to the shore?
    <GLH_PSmedger> rip> Uh, no. Just the opposite. Their interest in the south was primarily maritime. It was the interior of the hold where their grasp was tenuous.
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    Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:19 pm  

    It just keeps getting worse . . .

    GVDammerung wrote:
    As I indicated, the idea of an "island hoping campaign" ala McArthur strikes me as beyond silly.


    As noted, the island hopping strategy of MacArthur was one of only fighting for strategically important islands, while bypassing minor islands and letting them fall by themselves because of a lack of support. With only three major islands, there would be no need for the strategy at all. That you would suggest shows that you don't have a clue about either the strategy or the application of it to the Flanaess.

    Quote:
    Could it be done? If Keoland mortaged itself to get it done, okay. Sure. I just don't see any sane kingdom doing that, however. Given then only a commitment of troops comensurate with the limited importance of the Hold to Keoland (which is largely a land power), I don't see the forces necessary to pull it off being allocated. And maintaining that I see no support for it in the text. Wink


    Nonsense.
    A simple look at the relative populations of Keoland, including the Yeomanry, Sterich, Gran March, and the three Uleks at the particular time, should make it abundantly obvious to anyone with the ability to count that there is no way any putative inhabitants of the Hold could build either a fleet to oppose Keoland, or field an army that would be more than a speedbump.

    Further, a simple consideration of the map and realizing that the largest city of Keoland is a port, that two other major cities of Keoland can be reached by ocean going ships traveling up rivers, that another major port exists in the Principality of Ulek, and that other major cities in surrounding Sheldomar "vassals" can be reached by ocean going vessels, and that its land expansion is hopelessly constricted by the Fals and Bramblewood Gaps, should be more than enough evidence that Keoland is largely a naval power. It is the only way it can expand.

    Quote:
    Monmurg shields Westkeep, which is the primary supply point for Keoland in the Hold.


    As noted, completely wrong. Westkeep is a supply point only for a flanking maneuver, and then a control point for the dangerous marshes. The primary port is Monmurg.

    Quote:
    The money is in the centeral Hold. Westkeep is key to holding that area. Monmurg protects Westkeep from the pirates of the Bay and does so whether or not Keoland holds the Jeklea Islands.


    Holding it against who?
    It won't protect against Berghof, which you want to strip from Keoland.
    It won't protect against pirates in the islands, which you want to strip from Keoland.
    It can't protect against the entire Hool Marsh!
    It doesn't have to protect against the Yeomanry.
    It is not centrally located, and can not properly serve as a command point for controlling the prime agricultural lands.
    So how could it be the key to holding anything?

    As for Monmurg protecting Westkeep from the pirates of the Bay, no such protection is needed. They aren't going to land and march overland, and a base at Port Torvin would be a much better location to guard the river and provide overland support. I know, because that's why I suggested adding it there!
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    Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:14 pm  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    The Crusades have been perhaps the closest analogy that has been drawn to any hypothetical attempt by Keoland to take the Jeklea Islands, during the time Keoland is noted in canon as having conquered the Hold of the Sea Princes from “the Hellfurnaces to Jeklea Bay.”


    No. The Crusades have been used an example of projecting power across huge distances, not as an analogy for conquest.
    They are indeed a poor example to be used for the scale and scope of the operations. They do however serve to utterly refute your assertion that it would be impossible for Keoland to carry out land and sea operations over a few hundred miles, and then project enough power to control the region.
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    Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:56 pm  

    Time out folks.

    Differences in opinion both for and against a subject are well and good, but using real world historical precedents to prove a point in a make-belive fantasy world filled with dragons and elves is pointless. While borrowing real world history may help add 'realism' to the setting, its quite another to argue over points of historical references as a way to justify your take on what role canon plays within that reference.

    That said, try and limit the historical justifications to basic points and not dwell on minutia and things will probably not go so far off topic, and on that note, while strong feelings both for and against canon will run high try to keep personal attachments to those viewpoints at a minimum and the debate less personal in the future.

    Please. Cool
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    Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:25 am  

    Dethand wrote:
    Time out folks.

    Differences in opinion both for and against a subject are well and good, but using real world historical precedents to prove a point in a make-belive fantasy world filled with dragons and elves is pointless. While borrowing real world history may help add 'realism' to the setting, its quite another to argue over points of historical references as a way to justify your take on what role canon plays within that reference.

    That said, try and limit the historical justifications to basic points and not dwell on minutia and things will probably not go so far off topic, and on that note, while strong feelings both for and against canon will run high try to keep personal attachments to those viewpoints at a minimum and the debate less personal in the future.

    Please. Cool


    Since I'm the only one to actually set out historical or canon detail at any length in support of the position I choose to advocate for, I'll take this with fair grace as aimed in my direction. Well enough, then. The debate is pretty cheap and not worth the effort in all events when "Oh, you're ignorant of X, Y and Z" backed by nothing more is the loudest retort. I hope you will allow me to note that I have called no one "ignorant," nor is that response my standard rhetorical flourish when pressed. Between Woesinger and myself (principally I think), despite differing opinions, there has been a back and forth on the merits, and perhaps even some little movement to a middle ground. The problem lies elsewhere, where is has repeatedly lain. Follow the trail of attributions of ignorance across the various threads, directed at myself as well as others. But enough on that score from me. Your point is taken.

    Before moving along I would like to address Rip's helpful scribing -

    rasgon wrote:
    From chat:

    Quote:

    <GLH_PSmedger> I imagine an author's opinion will be irrelevant to the heated debaters. ;-)
    <rip> Author's opinions are noncanon. :)
    <rip> Just to be clear, though, you didn't intend for the Keoish to stick to the shore?
    <GLH_PSmedger> rip> Uh, no. Just the opposite. Their interest in the south was primarily maritime. It was the interior of the hold where their grasp was tenuous.


    I take Gary at his word. He obviously knows what he intended. I can only say that what made it to the printed page and then canon never specifically mentions the islands as being conquered and uses such language as to lead me to a different conclusion. I can't offer any explaination for that. I can only say that it is unfortunate the islands were left unmentioned in the descriptions of the conquest that were printed when the intent was to indicate that Keoland conquered the islands. Meaning islands and seeing islands make it to the page would have saved me a trip down the rabbit hole with Alice.

    Mustering that dignity I can, I surrender the field, with thanks to the Earl Marshal for allowing me the brief soliloquy. I am cool with it. Cool
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    Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:30 am  

    GVD: “I surrender the field.”- To the extent that you were battling, good. But I think everyone has contributed something important to the issue at hand, whether and/or how Keoland controlled the islands, a point very relevant to the history of Sassy.

    While I highly value GLH’s opinion as one of the more important considerations in interpreting his canon, I do not find the quotes very helpful on that narrow issue. Nothing could be clearer with the establishment of Westkeep than Keoland did not intend to stick to the shore. Also, I took it as a given with the establishment of Monmurg that their interests were primarily maritime. I too disagree with GVD on the purposes of Westkeep and Monmurg. IIRC, canon says the Hold’s prosperity comes from the sea, although the implication was piracy. But GLH’s opinion does not address whether Keoland invaded the interior of the islands, or whether there was any point in doing so.

    GVD: “… during the time Keoland is noted in canon as having conquered the Hold of the Sea Princes from “the Hellfurnaces to Jeklea Bay” … Holders, who are known to be able seamen and are already established on the islands.”

    As I noted above, I think that those words are not reliable and are a dubious expression of intent. The other facts surrounding that statement are more important. But what I find more interesting is that you have provided that Holders were established on the islands at the time of Tavish. I am not aware of any canon saying what was established then (other than UK1, which is not worth much in that regard), and as the Hold as a political division did not come around until much later, it is untrue. There were no “Holders” then. But it begs interesting questions as to who was there, which is very relevant.

    There has been some canon development of the Toli and Sam has done much great work in that regard, but again, there is little written down on the islands. I think it is a fair reading of his apocrypha that Firstcomers settled there and were later dominate by the Toli (there control of the islands is clear from Sam), but I do not know what that really means. How much civilization did they establish?

    What of the indigenous inhabitants? I think they were Olman, but I hold there would and could be more to it than that: humanoids, demihumans possibly Flan, or reasonably not. We do not know how these interacted although I would figure enslavement by Suel would be about rights, how far did that go? How many islands are there? Are there wild areas on the big ones?

    At the time of Tavish, how far did he have to go to look after Keoish maritime interests? Invading the islands? Maybe, but I have seen nothing to indicate that that happened, was necessary or even prudent. Do you have to hold Cuba and the Bahamas to ensure trade to New Orleans? For each of the commercial ports on the islands, which were probably very few, he could have sailed in a few ships, demanded fealty, open markets and an end to slavery and would have gotten them (or at least a pretence of the last) regardless of the number of ships in the islands in total. Other than the apocryphal domination by the Toli, I am not aware of anything holding those islands together as some kind of unified force that would imply the necessity of invasion. That Toli domination does not indicate that they were anything like a unified force capable of fighting the Keoish.

    Samwise wrote:

    Quote:
    Could it be done? If Keoland mortaged itself to get it done, okay. Sure. I just don't see any sane kingdom doing that, however. Given then only a commitment of troops comensurate with the limited importance of the Hold to Keoland (which is largely a land power), I don't see the forces necessary to pull it off being allocated. And maintaining that I see no support for it in the text. Wink


    Nonsense.
    A simple look at the relative populations of Keoland, including the Yeomanry, Sterich, Gran March, and the three Uleks at the particular time, should make it abundantly obvious to anyone with the ability to count that there is no way any putative inhabitants of the Hold could build either a fleet to oppose Keoland, or field an army that would be more than a speedbump.


    This, IMO, is somewhat the heart of the issue. I think GVD is right that Sam is overinflating Keoland. Or at least contradicting GVD just for fun (which is not the case for me at least). When you do the numbers, Keoland alone, not including its satellites could swamp any place in the region and Tavish was the greatest representation of that. If he had wanted to or needed to he could have easily invaded the large islands and any number of strategic small ones. But I do not see that it was wanted, needed or done. But going into the detail of Keoish history you see that it cannot rely on its satellites or ultimately itself. That is Keoish history. Tavish the Great is a foil. Sam has pointed that out well with the Toli wars and the Hold after Tavish the Great.

    As for this statement in particular, “there is no way any putative inhabitants of the Hold could build either a fleet to oppose Keoland, or field an army that would be more than a speedbump,” Sam is contradicting himself and canon. Himself via his Toli history, canon via the history I quoted above: The pirates “numbers and strength had become so great, however, that the Keoish fleet, even with the aid of a squadron of Ulek warships, could at best deliver a sharp check to them (Battle of Jetsom Island). This lesson caused their leaders to rethink their policies …”

    So to agree with most posters that the history of the islands is open to interpretation. But I think what is not reasonably open to interpretation is that Keoland is part of that history and should not have ignored by JJ in the history of Sassy. Trying to save that history by saying the hiding was fair as some epic magic, just makes matters worse. It was more than lame, but there is a map and I think fairly good adventure so the city should not be ignored.

    There has been a call for a postfest on Sassy which I thought would be good. I will say that perhaps it should wait until more of the AP has come out. Perhaps after the parts addressing Tamoachan. Then I think a broader postfest on the Jerlea would be good because the history of Sassy, especially because it is a port, cannot stand on its own.

    In the mean time, I would not mind a different postfest. :-)
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    Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:09 am  

    Wolfsire wrote:
    I think it is a fair reading of his apocrypha that Firstcomers settled there and were later dominate by the Toli (there control of the islands is clear from Sam), but I do not know what that really means. How much civilization did they establish?


    That development is all outside canon, and purely a result of discussions with GLH.

    Quote:
    What of the indigenous inhabitants? I think they were Olman, but I hold there would and could be more to it than that: humanoids, demihumans possibly Flan, or reasonably not. We do not know how these interacted although I would figure enslavement by Suel would be about rights, how far did that go? How many islands are there? Are there wild areas on the big ones?


    I tend to think there were mixed Flan/Olman on the islands, but they were all slain or enslaved by the Suel long before Tavish showed up. (See both the canon reference to Alran on Jeklea Bay in the Yeomanry section of the LGG, and my personal writings on Toli.)

    Quote:
    At the time of Tavish, how far did he have to go to look after Keoish maritime interests?


    One thing missing here is GLH's strong references to the Explorer Kings from before the Slumbering. Keoland had extensive interests in the south dating back before the establishment of the Great Kingdom. There were Keoish settlements on those islands, and further south, even before Tavish I conquered the Hold. They weren't huge, they certainly didn't control the region, and they had decayed in the 2 centuries since Malv was marooned on the Isle of Dread, but they were there.
    So with the Toli finally crushed, the islands weren't so much actively conquered as they fell into Keoland's control by default. There was no organized group to contest any claims. And with that control came increased exploration and trade in the Amedio and south. That's why there was such a base for the Sea Prince to exploit a hundred years later.

    Quote:
    But I do not see that it was wanted, needed or done.


    It was both wanted, to gain more bases to explore the Amedio from, needed, to keep them out of the hands of the Toli, and done, for the first two reasons.

    Quote:
    As for this statement in particular, “there is no way any putative inhabitants of the Hold could build either a fleet to oppose Keoland, or field an army that would be more than a speedbump,” Sam is contradicting himself and canon. Himself via his Toli history, canon via the history I quoted above: The pirates “numbers and strength had become so great, however, that the Keoish fleet, even with the aid of a squadron of Ulek warships, could at best deliver a sharp check to them (Battle of Jetsom Island). This lesson caused their leaders to rethink their policies …”


    Yes and no. As it happens, I GLH and I addressed this directly in the chat the other day.
    Canonically, looking solely at the numbers, it is simply absurd to suggest that the Sea Princes could ever field a fleet that would threaten to dominate the Azure. The population is barely a third, if that much, of Keoland, and a significant number of those are slaves who would not contribute to the armed forces. As such, there is no way their strength could be that great.
    Apocryphally, taking the intent of GLH that the Sea Prince was waging a civil war, it is possible because Keoland's forces were divided, fighting in several other places at the same time, making the difference less critical.
    I will also note that the "sharp check" was nothing less than the killing of the Sea Prince! Hardly a minor incident.

    So the question is, how do you set yourself to reconcile canon that doesn't agree with the otherwise published information?
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    Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:47 am  

    Samwise wrote:
    I tend to think there were mixed Flan/Olman on the islands, but they were all slain or enslaved by the Suel long before Tavish showed up. (See both the canon reference to Alran on Jeklea Bay in the Yeomanry section of the LGG, and my personal writings on Toli.)


    I think that is probably the case too, at least for the big islands. Wink Thanks for the reference. I look forward to looking it up.
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    Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:33 pm  

    Sam, so what are you thoughts on Alran?

    I took a look at LGG referencing that, Googled it and search the articles and forums here, but I could not find anything else (Y’s LG cite quotes LLG). I did not review your articles on the Toli, but I am familiar with them and know they conquered the Suel that were already established.

    I don’t see much out there. While not strictly on the coast, I think Hokar is a good candidate for the survival of the Alran culture. I saw nothing that says Alran (like Melkot) was a city. It could have been on the spot of Port Toli, near but destroyed by the Toli, the name of a kingdom that included Hokar or other things. The absence of any reference to islands, but inclusion of the word “coast” makes me think there it did not include the islands, or at least was not centered around them. The coastal people who constructed the Gauntlet come to mind. But so do the ancestors of Jeon II. In Treasures of Greyhawk, there is an adventure establishing the temple of Kelanen in Monmurg that involves the recovery of an ancient sword. It references an ancient kingdom and recovery of the sword from the Crystalmists. While it is twice removed, that would be an accurate description of the Kamph Mountains.

    I though I read an article about that sword, but I cannot find it, now. Does that ring a bell?

    Assuming Jeon II had a Rhollan royal ancestry, that would not preclude an Alran royal ancestry, but rather suggest it.
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    Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:40 pm  

    Wolfsire wrote:
    Sam, so what are you thoughts on Alran?


    Beats me, GLH made it up. I was going to suggest it was flooded at the mouth of the Javan, but now I'm thinking it might be the ruins beneath Sasserine.

    Quote:
    I don’t see much out there. While not strictly on the coast, I think Hokar is a good candidate for the survival of the Alran culture. I saw nothing that says Alran (like Melkot) was a city. It could have been on the spot of Port Toli, near but destroyed by the Toli, the name of a kingdom that included Hokar or other things.


    I'm pretty sure Alran was intended to be a city. It isn't, if I recall GLH, where Port Toli is, he said it was "lost."

    Quote:
    Assuming Jeon II had a Rhollan royal ancestry, that would not preclude an Alran royal ancestry, but rather suggest it.


    I doubt Alran had royal pretensions. And, given its complete disappearance, I would say it is unlikely they left any way by which their descendants could be traced. The Monmurg Rhola have obviously intermarried with the locals, so its possible there is Toli blood in them, but I wouldn't dig too hard for Alran blood.
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    Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:17 am  

    Holian and I discussed Alran as a potential "pre-sasserine" in chat one night, and we agreed that since Alran wasn't detailed beyond the passing reference in LGG's Yeomanry entry, it is as good as any fix for placing Sasserine.

    My idea is that Alran was settled early in the pre-cataclysms migrations, but later, when volcanic activity increased in the Hellfurnaces, the city was lost, buried under flowing lava from the Cauldron volcano. This explains the rather geometric "canals" in the current city, they aren't naturally occuring waterways, but the old, buried streets of Alran, making the "islands" groups of lava covered buildings. The appearance of noteworthy subterranean features (caves, basements, whatever) in modern Sasserine supports this, as some of the sturdier stone buildings in Alran would remain intact and not be completely filled with lava when the city is destroyed. Likewise, I'd surmise that at least part of the river system flowing into the city was given its path not by the meandering of the river itself, but by the dramatic landscape shifts that can be caused by lava flows.
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    Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:56 am  

    direrodent wrote:

    My idea is that Alran was settled early in the pre-cataclysms migrations, but later, when volcanic activity increased in the Hellfurnaces, the city was lost, buried under flowing lava from the Cauldron volcano. This explains the rather geometric "canals" in the current city, they aren't naturally occuring waterways, but the old, buried streets of Alran, making the "islands" groups of lava covered buildings. The appearance of noteworthy subterranean features (caves, basements, whatever) in modern Sasserine supports this, as some of the sturdier stone buildings in Alran would remain intact and not be completely filled with lava when the city is destroyed. Likewise, I'd surmise that at least part of the river system flowing into the city was given its path not by the meandering of the river itself, but by the dramatic landscape shifts that can be caused by lava flows.


    I like this train of thought quite a bit, the volcano can't be the Cauldron volcano simply due to geography but it certainly could be from geological effects of the closer Hellfurnaces. Cauldron is actually on a south/north spur of the Hellfurnaces and Sasserine would be closer to the regular mountain range.
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    Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:36 pm  

    direrodent wrote:
    My idea is that Alran was settled early in the pre-cataclysms migrations, but later, when volcanic activity increased in the Hellfurnaces, the city was lost, buried under flowing lava from the Cauldron volcano. This explains the rather geometric "canals" in the current city, they aren't naturally occuring waterways, but the old, buried streets of Alran, making the "islands" groups of lava covered buildings. The appearance of noteworthy subterranean features (caves, basements, whatever) in modern Sasserine supports this, as some of the sturdier stone buildings in Alran would remain intact and not be completely filled with lava when the city is destroyed. Likewise, I'd surmise that at least part of the river system flowing into the city was given its path not by the meandering of the river itself, but by the dramatic landscape shifts that can be caused by lava flows.


    It'd have to be a pretty sturdy building to survive a lava flow. Mud and ash, yes; lava, no chance. I'm not sure about the canals = old streets idea either. I think any mud flow (or lahar) or ashfall that'd bury a town would obliterate all traces of streets, though it'd leave the ruins of the town pretty well buried underneath.

    Given the fact the city's at the end of a river system - I think a lahar is the most likely culprit:

    http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/Products/Pglossary/lahar.html
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    Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:41 am  

    I'm going through the Savage Tide Player's Guide, and I've changed my mind about Sasserine being hidden. I've figured out how they did. Not by destroying maps or anything. In this city of 15,650 there are 35 taverns and 9 brothels. I figure after a stopover here, you are going to be so hungover (and ummm . . . you know) that you won't remember where the heck you were.
    Great Googly Moogly! And these people have time to do anything else?
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    Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:00 am  

    Samwise wrote:
    In this city of 15,650 there are 35 taverns and 9 brothels.


    Sounds about right.

    P.
    Dublin, Ireland. Laughing
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    Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:34 am  

    Every town in Montana with at least 500 people has three taverns...

    Of course with 9 brothels, I am not sure why an STD hasn't wiped everyone out.
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    Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:59 am  

    There’s a thousand pretty women wait’n out there
    And they’re all livin’ devil may care
    And I’m just the devil with love to spare
    Viva Oh Sassy! Viva Oh Sassy!
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:53 am  

    Oh, and I'd also like to note:

    Sasserine doesn't have slavery, but it does have whaling and a tobacconist's guildhall.
    Good grief!

    Also, given its location, I'd kind of think it would have 5 rum distilleries and 1 brewery, and not the other way around.

    I'm going to do some more searching and tallying of various businesses and such listed in the player's guide and I'll post them for reference. (Unless someone decides to do it first.)
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    Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:45 pm  
    Yon Big List of Lists

    Some of the lists become a bit strained at the end, but I was trying to break things down to give a better overview. People might want to reorganize those a bit for their own use. Also note that some places appear more than one, particularly inn/taverns and tavern/gaming halls.
    There are also a few things from the general guide I need to add to this.

    Nobles - District Representatives 7
    Islaran
    Lorchester
    Taskerhill
    Arabani
    Lidu
    Dracktus
    Knowlern

    Minor nobles 4
    Kellani
    Torgeson
    Vanderboren
    Meravanchi

    Guildhall 52+3
    Dredger’s
    Pearldiver’s
    Ropemaker’s
    Inker’s
    Whaler’s
    Fishmonger’s
    Moneylender’s
    Lanternlighter’s
    Streetsweeper’s
    Carpenter’s
    Ratcatcher’s
    Stonemason’s
    Chimneysweep’s
    Purifier’s
    Locksmith’s
    Baker’s
    Candlemaker’s
    Jeweler’s
    Glassblower’s
    Gemcutter’s
    Merchant’s
    Weaver’s
    Cobbler’s
    Spicemerchant’s
    Tavernkeeper’s
    Basketweaver’s
    Tailor’s
    Scrivener’s
    Leatherworker’s
    Smith’s
    Cooper’s
    Barber’s
    Alchemist’s
    Butcher’s
    Scavenger’s
    Teamster’s
    Wheelwright’s
    Launderer’s
    Tanner’s
    Innkeeper’s
    Riverman’s
    Barrister’s
    Actor’s
    Musician’s
    Coffinmaker’s
    Courtesan’s
    Instrument Maker’s
    Cartographer’s
    Sailmaker’s
    Shipwright’s
    Taxidermist’s
    Tobacconist’s

    Marshwarden’s Halls (guides for local marshes)
    Landowner’s Hall (plantation owner’s meeting hall)
    Emerald Journeys (guides for the Amedio Jungle)

    Taverns 37
    The Empty Grave
    The Bloodthirsty Pelican (inn)
    The Sasserine Sleigh Ride (brothel)
    The Drunken Dolphin (whaler’s only)
    Six Swords Tavern
    Rumblegut’s (inn)
    The Tipsy Troglodyte
    Three Dwarves Digging (gaming hall)
    Kord’s Quencher
    The Catapulter (gaming hall)
    Tentooth’s Taphouse
    The Barrelhouse
    Fast Vera’s
    Bent Bertha’s
    The Silverlode
    The Legless Stork
    The Painted Hare
    The Whispering Anvil (inn)
    Fishfood
    The Rasp
    The Unexpected Monkey
    Stirge in the Stew
    The Ticklish Ogre
    The Drunk Bear (mead shop)
    Gregair’s Place (gaming hall)
    The Rusty Pirate
    Fifteen Horses and a Mule
    The Pearl and the Parrot (inn)
    Imp’s Folly (gaming hall)
    The Skinned Man
    Fishlip’s Games (gaming hall)
    The Plucked Parrot (inn)
    The Restless Lion
    The Hunter’s Trap (gambling hall)
    The Shivering Cat
    The Hungry Gorilla

    Gaming Hall 7
    Three Dwarves Digging (tavern)
    The Catapulter (tavern)
    Gregair’s Place (tavern)
    Imp’s Folly (tavern)
    Fishlip’s Games (tavern)
    Alinara’s Vixens
    The Bridgehouse

    Brothel 9
    The Gull’s Nest
    The Mermaid’s Secret
    The Sasserine Sleigh Ride (tavern)
    Aunt Kylie’s
    The Painted Vixen
    The Crimson Genie
    The Minx Market
    The Velvet Hatch
    Last Ditch Lovers

    Inns 15
    The Bloodthirsty Pelican (tavern)
    Rumblegut’s (tavern)
    The Thrice-Born Phoenix
    The Whispering Anvil (tavern)
    The Burning Dragon
    Fenter’s Place
    The Bent Goblin
    The Strumpet’s Excuse
    The Pearl and the Parrot (tavern)
    Ancestor’s Rest
    The Narrow House
    Coffinsquatters
    The Plucked Parrot (tavern)
    Winmester’s
    The Siren’s House

    Church/Temple 7
    Azure Cathedral (Osprem, Xerbo, Procan)
    House of Kord (Kord)
    Temple of St. Cuthbert) Cuthbert)
    Temple of Fharlanghn (Fharlanghn)
    Temple of Wee Jas (Wee Jas)
    Shrine of St. Worgul (Olidammara)
    Dawnhouse (Pelor)

    Shrines 26
    Norebo
    Llerg
    Kelanen
    Gwynharaf (Church of the Whirling Fury)
    Fortubo
    Garl Glittergold
    Moradin
    Yondalla
    Zilchus
    Celestian
    Geshtai
    Trithereon
    Ralishaz
    Bleredd
    Dalt
    Liir
    Lendor
    Myrhiss
    Lydia
    Boccob
    Charmelaine
    Kuroth
    Istus
    Heironeous
    Mayaheine
    Rao

    Sages 19
    Venton’s (local)
    The Upwards House (architecture and engineering)
    Highwall House (geography)
    House of Lords (nobility and royalty)
    Callisto’s Needle (the planes) (tattoo parlor)
    Blenak’s Bazaar (arcana) (magic shop)
    Meadowdusk’s (nature)
    The Endless Dusk (dungeoneering)
    Historian’s Guild (history)

    Markets 8
    East (general goods, seafood, animals)
    Kord’s (general goods, weapons, armor, metalwork)
    Low (general goods)
    West (general goods, lumber, livestock)
    Fishback (general goods, seafood, trinkets, jewelry)
    Harbor (general goods, imported goods, minor magic, food, entertainment)
    High (general goods, exotic wares, jewelry, magic)
    Dawn (general goods)

    Garrisons 7+3
    Azure Garrison
    Champion’s Garrison
    Cudgel Garrison Adjunct x3
    Cudgel Garrison
    Merchant’s Garrison
    Noble Garrison
    Shadowshore Garrison
    Sunrise Garrison

    Lighthouses 3
    Azure Lighthouse
    Champion’s Lighthouse
    Cudgel Lighthouse

    Important Buildings 11
    Sasserine Arena
    Scarlet Embassy
    Cudgel District Hall of Records
    House of Violets (monastery)
    Seeker Lodge
    Marketplace Hall
    Witchwarden Tower
    Sasserine Opera House
    Sasserine Crematorium
    Scarlet Spire
    Standing Stone Park

    Orphanages 2
    Emerald Waters Orphanage
    Dawnlight Orphanage

    Transport 3+12
    Redwall Stable
    Champion’s Corner Stable
    Eva’s Boat Rentals
    Gondola Waystation x12

    Major Businesses 6
    Finback Whaling
    Sasserine Whaling
    Red Sea Whaling
    Thunder River Lumber
    Amedio Trading Concern (import/export)
    Krexin Imports (exotic imports)

    Animals 4
    Fendal’s Pets (exotic pets and guardbeasts)
    Snaver’s Kennel (animal trainer)
    The Sacred Hound (dog trainers)
    Cages of Plenty (exotic pets)

    Curio Shops 4
    The Trophy Hunter (curio shop)
    Enad’s Trickery (curio shop)
    The Dancing Monkey (curio shop)
    The Crystal’s Whisper (curio shop)

    Arms and Armor 7
    Gladiator’s Best (fine weapons)
    Liomar’s Links (fine chainmail products)
    Vildivar’s (bows, arrows, ranged weapons)
    Delthar’s Protections (fine weaponry)
    Shank’s Collectibles (cheap weapons)
    The Notched Axe (mercenary guild)
    Black Shield Company (mercenary guild)

    Magic 6
    Bee in the Bottle (potions)
    Spells for Swords (magic shop)
    Little Sunrises (magical light sources)
    Glittermane’s Vault (magic shop)
    Orimander’s Emporium of the Soul (magic shop) (bookshop)
    Blenak’s Bazaar (magic shop) (sage)

    General Goods 7
    Three Thin Cats (general goods)
    Hathgak’s (general goods)
    Glilvery’s Goods (general goods)
    Corner Groceries (general goods)
    Neldrek’s Goods (general goods)
    Tepinal’s Ware (general goods)
    Leldibar’s Shop (general goods)

    Alcohol 5+1
    Black Crab (brewery)
    Sesker’s Whiskers (brewery)
    Laughing Shark (brewery)
    Crab Pond Ale (brewery)
    Lumberjacker Ale (brewery)
    Sasserine Distillery (rum factory)

    Books and Such 13
    Zelkarune’s Hall (museum)
    Museum of Mayhem (museum)
    The Hidden Vortex (fortune teller)
    Seldar’s Tales (cheap novels)
    Telvanta Academy (dance school)
    The Inner Labyrinth (occult books)
    House of the Dragon (school and library)
    The Curious Chimera (bookstore)
    Thenalar Academy (finishing school)
    Cloudcrystal Academy (finishing school)
    Orimander’s Emporium of the Soul (magic shop) (bookshop)
    Whispers on the Wind (fortune teller)
    The House of Science (freak show and museum of oddity)

    Moneylenders 4
    Viltashel’s Favors (moneylender)
    The Warden’s Vault (moneylender)
    Coins From Above (moneylender)
    Honest Brank’s (moneylender)

    Bathhouses 2
    Heinvar’s Baths (bathhouse)
    Featherwhisper’s (bathhouse)

    Crafts 7
    Nate’s Nest (nets, fine fishing equipment)
    Whaleworks (fine scrimshaw art)
    Building By Design (construction)
    Tharvel’s Hides (fine hides and leather goods)
    Costumes and Fantasies (exotic clothing, costumes)
    The Singing Rose (perfumes and oils)
    Domaskio’s Consortium (puppets and toys)

    Miscellaneous 9
    Best Bait and Desserts (bait and bakery)
    Bizwor’s Balms (medicine and seasickness cures)
    Sasserine Sendings (messenger service)
    Welcome Home (home sales)
    Sasserine Tours (guides to the city)
    Rooftops Solutions (messenger service)
    Gentle Nelli’s (apothecary)
    Callisto’s Needle (tattoo parlor) (sage)
    It Still Floats! (cheap boats and ships)
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    Mon Sep 25, 2006 7:30 am  

    Woesinger wrote:
    Samwise wrote:
    In this city of 15,650 there are 35 taverns and 9 brothels.


    Sounds about right.

    P.
    Dublin, Ireland. Laughing


    I grew up where people complained when the total number of pubs on the high street was reduced to eighteen...
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