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    Canonfire :: View topic - Outrage! Elminster could easily kick Mordy's butt!
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    Outrage! Elminster could easily kick Mordy's butt!
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    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 15, 2004
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    Wed May 19, 2004 6:32 pm  
    Outrage! Elminster could easily kick Mordy's butt!

    Has anyone looked in the back of the Epic Level Handbook and seen that Elminster is way more powerful than Mordy?

    Mordy: 27th level Wizard

    Elminster: 24th level Wizard / 5th level Archmage / 3rd level Cleric / 2nd level Rogue / 1st level Fighter (Or, if you just count the arcane classes [Wizard and Archmage], a 29th level arcane spellcaster!)

    This is an outrage! We can plainly all see than Elminster could make mince meat of Mordy!

    Mordy is the Grand Daddy of D&D and should be able to kick the butt of any upstart, late-comer like Elminster!

    In my game Mordy is a 37th level Wizard and has just finished battling Elminster. Needless to say, Elminster's head is now stuck on a pike outside the Obsidian Citadel!

    No seriously, I think Elminster is supposed to be very ancient or something -- far more ancient than Mordy -- and this is why he has so many levels. Happy
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: May 13, 2004
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    Wed May 19, 2004 7:10 pm  
    Re: Outrage! Elminster could easily kick Mordy's butt!

    You know, I just could not bring myself to stay away from this topic. Here's a quote from my bio on another forum. Elminster reminds me of that one person you know that has to shove their character down everyone's throat at every opportunity. And my opinion on that age old question? Mordenkainen would whip Elminster's old, decrepit, crusty 'butt' any day of the week, where ever he wanted it whipped, at whatever time of day he asked for it to be whipped. 'Nuff said. Laughing I'm with you on this one Baggins.....

    Baggins wrote:
    In my game Mordy is a 37th level Wizard and has just finished battling Elminster. Needless to say, Elminster's head is now stuck on a pike outside the Obsidian Citadel!


    By the way, I didn't know Elminster had so many professions under his belt. *cough*Monty Hall*cough*
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 17, 2004
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    From: Cullman, AL

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    Wed May 19, 2004 7:17 pm  
    Re: Outrage! Elminster could easily kick Mordy's butt!

    Tedra wrote:
    You know, I just could not bring myself to stay away from this topic. Here's a quote from my bio on another forum. Elminster reminds me of that one person you know that has to shove their character down everyone's throat at every opportunity.


    He does seem like an author surrogate. It's one of the reasons I've never much cared for Forgotten Realms. The purpose of adventures there seems to be to just give the characters something to do to keep them busy. When they return successfully, they're given a pat on the head and told to take a breather while Elminster goes and takes care of the -real- problem.
    Forum Moderator

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    Wed May 19, 2004 9:12 pm  

    It's not the size of your level, it's how you use it.

    ;)
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu May 20, 2004 4:39 am  

    Hey if Elminster is so great, how come nobody uses his spells in Greyhawk? Greyhawk mage spells permeate FR (Bigby, Mordenkainen, Tenser), but I can't recall any PC wizard in my Greyhawk campaign coming across an 'Elminster's anything' spell.

    Gee, your homebrew spells limited to one world...how powerful can you really be? Happy
    Postfest IV Winner

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    Thu May 20, 2004 5:31 am  

    Yeah!

    And, if I remember a-right, Elminster has no epic level spellcasting ability (didn't take the feat, doh!).

    Of course, if you throw in all the Spellfire and Chosen of Mystra drivel you have an uber-character who could nuke the Lords of Hell and the Abyss before breakfast.

    Bleh, the Forgotten Realms and its myriad of uber-mages reminds me of 7th-grade roleplaying.

    "Oh yeah? Well I have my fifty 36th-level come after your guy, and since I'm the DM I can do that!"

    What a complete waste...
    CF Admin

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    Thu May 20, 2004 7:21 am  

    I happen to like the fact that we don't have any almighties running around Greyhawk, except Tharizdun.. blek!
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    Thu May 20, 2004 5:18 pm  

    To be honest, though, I actually own a lot of FR books. I've never GMed a campaign in FR and never intend to, but a lot of the books have been a good resource for me. I have fond feelings for the 1E FR stuff; like the "grey box", FR1 and City System.

    In 2E, with all its planescaping and spelljamming, some official books suggested that Elminster and Mordy were collegues.
    CF Admin

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    Thu May 20, 2004 5:20 pm  

    Waterdeep and the North was an awesome city book, FR1, I think? Unfortunately, I've lost my copy long ago..
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    Fri May 21, 2004 9:52 am  

    Elminster, FR, and all that trash was part of the Great Shell Game TSR started playing after Gary departed.

    First off, the myth that Ed Greenwood has run the FR campaign since the game came out is a half-truth. Oh, he did, but his FR world used the maps from REH's Conan stories. All those pretty detailed maps you've got were made inhouse at TSR.

    TSR just needed a game world to replace Greyhawk and they basically engineered one...one that had a spotty history.

    As to Elminster, even mentioning him in the same sentence as Mordenkainen...a character that has been played since 1972-73... is a sin.
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    Fri May 21, 2004 12:59 pm  

    Abysslin wrote:
    I happen to like the fact that we don't have any almighties running around Greyhawk, except Tharizdun.. blek!



    Well...I think Greyhawk has plenty of almighties running around - Mordy, Philidor, Rary, to name just a few. The difference is how they're used, their place in the campaign world. How many Realms in FR are ruled by powerful wizards? I never played in it, but I could name more than a few. Greyhawk almighties are fewer in number and much farther behind the scenes. In addition, there is - at least officially - VERY little known about them (at least up through Sargent's material). As a result, it remains for the DM to decide the degree to which they influence events. I think this was a defining element of Gygax's Greyhawk - making adventures and campaigns rich with background while maintaining maximum flexibility for individual DMs and players to make their own history. I've always had a sense of ownership with Greyhawk, and my characters' roles in it, than I never believed I would have in FR.

    Perhaps I'm wrong, but if I am, I blame TSR's marketing department. Smile
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    Fri May 21, 2004 1:22 pm  

    Rary and Mordenkainen are common city folk compared to the realms. Philidor, well... his on the same line as Tharizdun. blek!
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    Fri May 21, 2004 8:06 pm  

    First let me jump in and say I am a fan of both settings.

    But has any one else noticed (or is it just me) that the FR world is based around the actions of several powerful NPC's where as GH seems to be based aroud a political sytem of nations.
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    Fri May 21, 2004 9:16 pm  

    Humm...

    Forgotten Realms is an overpowered world and thus have an overpowered NPC.

    I prefer Mordenkainen as a 20/23th Level Wizard than a 27th or 37th (JESUSSSS!!!!!)level one... I simply like the way "low power" that Greyhawk has. If i want to play overpowered characters (or if a want to use a OP NPC) i will play a Marvel/DC Based RPG.

    Elminster is far from being a charismatic character (in my opinion), but Mordenkainen has his own history, created through playing.

    (Forgive my bad english.. i think u can understand what i said, hug? Embarassed EHHEH)

    ...
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri May 21, 2004 10:00 pm  

    In the FRCS, you can find towns of about 10000 that have 6 or more 18th lvl wizards living in them. In the entire Sheldomar Valley, you can find direct reference to 4 (Drawmij, Mage of the Valley, Mohrgar of the Silent Ones, and Lashton of Greyhill).

    The two worlds are based on entirely different principles and the core principle of the FR is fantasy powergaming. It makes no effort to make sense, but merely to be a place for heroes to romp around kicking butt. Nations, cultures, etc are all trivial background elements in the FR. As pointed out in a previous post, the world revolved around NPCs, not civilizations.

    Mordenkainen is an 80 or so year old human wizard, who happens to be one of the best at what he does. Elminster is a 2000 year old divinely enhanced champion of a goddess. I haven't read any of the Elminster books, but I don't think he'd be all that impressive if he had been limited to the 2-3x normal human lifespan that is all Greyhawk wizards seem to manage without going undead.

    Besides, why should anyone care?
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    Sat May 22, 2004 12:44 am  

    Very true. Why should anyone care.

    I dont know about the rest of you but I enjoy a good pwoer game every now and then but they do seem to get boring quickly. In my experience the more balanced and challanging the game the longer the campaign seems to last. That in its self has meant that most of my games have been greyhawk campaigns.

    On thing I am looking forward to is seeing Ebberon (sp?) It has been a while since we have had a brand new world.

    I dont think it will change my view as GH being my number one world but hey I live in hope to see Iuz bite the big one Happy
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    Sun May 23, 2004 3:01 am  

    Who on Oerth is Philidor?

    What is he/she?

    What is his/her level?
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun May 23, 2004 8:29 am  

    Baggins wrote:
    Who on Oerth is Philidor?

    What is he/she?

    What is his/her level?


    Well, Philidor is a little strange. 6'4" tall, 210 pounds and a appears to be a human male but with light blue skin and hair. From the Ashes has him listed as a 25th lvl wizard. I haven't read the full listing in a while, but he lives in a townhouse in Greyhawk, at least he did in this box set. No one is quite sure what he is, or what he is up to. I don't know where else to find information on him. I thought he was also in Greyhawk The Adventure Begins, but couldn't find him there.

    There is a thread about him here on the Wotc message boards:

    http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=164668
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    Mon May 24, 2004 3:25 pm  

    I believe Ivid the Undying places Philidor at 30th level. In addition to appearing in the City of Greyhawk, he is connected to both the Grandwood and the Vesve.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue May 25, 2004 9:07 am  

    if i remember correctly, in a FR book there is a mention of a friendly confrontation betewn Mordi and Elmisters for the hand of a beatifull outsider....both lose. Happy
    Adept Greytalker

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    Tue May 25, 2004 10:45 pm  

    Good god, enough with the realms bashing people... show a little decency why don't you...
    Master Greytalker

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    Wed May 26, 2004 5:42 pm  

    what realms bashing? The realms are built to target a certain market segment. It targets that market segment very well. Stating that the FR is designed for the powergaming segment of the RPG market is not a value judgement inherently. The style in which one plays a hobby game is hardly a moral issue. IceWind Dale and Planescape:Torment are both very good D&D computer games, but they are quite different in style (one is predominately hacknslash, the other heavily RP, though both have both elements).

    Comparisons between Mordenkainen and Elminster inevitably require comment on the different contexts in which they operate. Elminster has to be a superhero because the realms are the kind of place where gods walk around, drow raids are an everyday occurence, and vast international conspiracies for good and evil exist that are more powerful than any nation. Mordenkainen operates in a lower fantasy context. Whoever the chief wizard of Harn is will be even less powerful, while still possessing the same relative level of dominance.

    Since this is a greyhawk fan forum, its quite likely most of us prefer the assumptions underlying the Greyhawk style of campaign to those of the FR. But that does not make statements of those differences into "bashing" (well, other than than comment about "Elminster, FR, and all that trash" :) )
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