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    Canonfire :: View topic - The City of the Summer Stars
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    The City of the Summer Stars
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    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:25 pm  
    The City of the Summer Stars

    The only date given to the fall of the City of Summer Stars is Ivid the Undying's note that the oldest of the Wardens who guard the Coldwood today were alive when it happened, and are now nearing the end of their lifespans.

    Assuming 1e grey elven lifespans, this could have happened as early as -1,356 CY: 585 (current year) - 2000 (maximum lifespan) -1 (no Common Year 0) + 60 (the elven age of majority - this gives a little breathing room for them to live a little beyond 585 and some to pass on earlier than others).

    Because this was written in 2nd edition, and because it references the habit of 2nd edition elves to cross to the afterlife through the Moonarch of the Seldarine rather than actually dying, it might make more sense to put it at -281 CY (585 - 925 - 1 + 60).

    The latter date is actually possible, as the Ur-Flannae necromancers still ruled the upper Flanmi River at that period; the Oeridians wouldn't enter it until -175 CY. This is, then, probably the closest we can get right now to a "canon" date (canon in this case meaning as true to the letter and spirit of the source material as possible, following the principle that even as heretics we ought to know what we're contradicting).

    However, while the latter date works, I find it personally unsatisfying to put this legendary event after the Great Migrations, as if history only began when the Oeridians entered the Flanaess. Ignoring the issue of how long elves ought to live, does anyone else feel like it should be much earlier?


    Last edited by rasgon on Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Oct 09, 2006 2:42 pm  

    Well, I think that the Moonarch is irrelevant since part of the story of the guardian elves is that they have abandoned the usual pursuit of elves to be permanent guardians for the place.

    Aside from that, I do think it works better if its set farther back. I think the whole place should be more of a mystery than it would be if it was destroyed less than a century before the Oeridians arrived. I think that whole disaster should be a legend even to the Flan living in the surrounding lands.

    I also think it would be much better if the event happened far enough back to have had a profound impact on the other elvish communities of the Flanaess without being so raw that it would immediately poison interaction with the migrants.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Mon Oct 09, 2006 2:48 pm  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    Well, I think that the Moonarch is irrelevant since part of the story of the guardian elves is that they have abandoned the usual pursuit of elves to be permanent guardians for the place.


    That doesn't excuse them from passing into the next world on schedule, though.

    Ivid the Undying said this: "Some of these Sentinels are gray elves from the old city itself, which brings them close to the limit of their years. When a Sentinel grows old, and the time comes for him to pass from the world, another takes his place, usually sent by the Silverbow Sages of Lendore."
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:37 pm  

    Early. Early. Early. Smile
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Oct 09, 2006 5:08 pm  

    Well, I admit that I completely skipped the 2e era from a game mechanics point of view. So I've always read that from a "When they got really really old and are too feeble to continue", not something to do with the Moonarch and passing away at a specified time.

    Regardless, elf lifespans and related issues have been altered repeatedly so its best to go with what makes the most sense for your campaign. Which, IMC, is earlier rather than later.
    CF Admin

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
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    Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:36 pm  
    Re: The City of the Summer Stars

    rasgon wrote:
    The only date given to the fall of the City of Summer Stars is Ivid the Undying's note that the oldest of the Wardens who guard the Coldwood today were alive when it happened, and are now nearing the end of their lifespans.

    Assuming 1e grey elven lifespans, this could have happened as early as -1,356 CY: 585 (current year) - 2000 (maximum lifespan) -1 (no Common Year 0) + 60 (the elven age of majority - this gives a little breathing room for them to live a little beyond 585 and some to pass on earlier than others).


    FWIW, maximum age for gray elves would be 2380 under 1e (using the 2000 Venerable + rolling max additional age adjustment of a 19 on d20 for 380 additional years lived, per DMG p. 13). Assuming no magical interventions, of course.
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    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Mon Oct 09, 2006 10:37 pm  
    Re: The City of the Summer Stars

    grodog wrote:
    FWIW, maximum age for gray elves would be 2380 under 1e (using the 2000 Venerable + rolling max additional age adjustment of a 19 on d20 for 380 additional years lived, per DMG p. 13). Assuming no magical interventions, of course.


    Ah, thank you! That would put it more like -1736 CY, over 300 years before the destruction of Sulm.
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:51 am  

    The DM of our online campaign sent us to the Coldwood to stop an evil cabal from stealing Hunger.

    He populated the forest with undead treants, banshee, and elf wights, some of which were advanced spell-stitched wights. The Sentinels weren't very friendly either!

    You might find some inspiration on our website under the section Darnakurian's Doom, although I don't think any of us got bogged down with the dates and the DM still hasn't got around to writing up the part of the story set in the Coldwood, so I suspect it will be of limited use at best.

    http://www.postnuke.elminster.com/index.php?name=Sections&req=listarticles&secid=1

    I'd be quite interested to see what class levels people think the Sentinels should have. I would have thought: Fg4, Wz5, EK5+ depending on how long they've been there?
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:39 am  
    Re: The City of the Summer Stars

    grodog wrote:
    FWIW, maximum age for gray elves would be 2380 under 1e (using the 2000 Venerable + rolling max additional age adjustment of a 19 on d20 for 380 additional years lived, per DMG p. 13). Assuming no magical interventions, of course.


    Actually, it's 2399: 2000 (Venerable) + 380 (019 x 20) + 19 (019). (I recently posed a related question in the 1E trivia thread at Dragonsfoot. Wink ) Unfortunately, given that Ivid is a 2E sourcebook, I think we're stuck with the c. 281 CY date.
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:26 pm  
    Re: The City of the Summer Stars

    DMPrata wrote:
    grodog wrote:
    FWIW, maximum age for gray elves would be 2380 under 1e (using the 2000 Venerable + rolling max additional age adjustment of a 19 on d20 for 380 additional years lived, per DMG p. 13). Assuming no magical interventions, of course.


    Actually, it's 2399: 2000 (Venerable) + 380 (019 x 20) + 19 (019). (I recently posed a related question in the 1E trivia thread at Dragonsfoot. Wink ) Unfortunately, given that Ivid is a 2E sourcebook, I think we're stuck with the c. 281 CY date.


    Edition schmedition. Monks didn't vanish after Fate of Istus - so I don't see why we have to adjust Flanaessi history according to the changing whims of games designers. The Fall of the City of the Summer Stars was long ago - well before the coming of the Oerids and that's allwe need to know.

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    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:44 am  

    I am not an edition monger, but I have to agree... it was a long time ago. I dont think those who wrote Ivid, at that time, thought they were changing that. If, in 2e, their age bothers you, assume they had a few potions of youth. It makes more sense than trying to adjust history based on an edition change, particularly one as obscure as elf aging.
    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:58 am  

    Agreed - it should be ancient history well outside the normal life span of 3e elves - although was Darnakurian fighting against Vecna's forces or just the Ur-Flan in general - that might date it a bit better since a number of people have tried to timeline Vecna's history?

    It's only 'rumoured' that some of the Sentinels are from the city so perhaps one or two have been using age-reduction magic to extend their lives. It makes far more sense for the disaster tohave happened about 2000 years ago in my view.
    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:26 am  

    The Vecna connection isn't canon. That comes from the OJ1 timeline. I remember having a long discussion with Montand on GTalk about this and eventually having to concede that Vecna was based in the Sheldomar and had nothing really to do with the City of Summer Stars.

    Besides, it's more pleasing to have several ancient Ur Flan bogeymen, rather than just one.

    P.
    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:34 am  

    I believe it is the Necromancers of Trask who are the Flan sorcerors that are party to Darnakurian's mutually assured destruction.
    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:12 am  

    Yup - they're the fellas.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:07 am  

    Sorry for the thread resurrection, but I thought it was notable that Gwydiesin of the Cranes (of the Lone Heath and Grandwood) has recited a verse / song about The Doorway to the Summer Stars (perhaps a way to still reach the city?) and walked in the Vale of Summer Stars (perhaps what is now a demiplane displaced by the Coldwood)?
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