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    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Dec 01, 2005
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    Mon Jan 01, 2007 3:23 pm  
    Motley Questions

    I've got a motley mix of questions floating around on scraps of paper. This seems like the place to get some of them answered, so....

    (1) Celestial Houses of the Aerdi: I've got six on my list (Cranden, Darmen, Garasteth, Haxx, Naelax, and Rax). Am I missing any?

    (2) LGG 23 states: "The Great Kingdom reached its height over the next century under House Rax, with ambitious rulers such as the lines of Erhart and Toran." Can anyone point me to a list of these rulers, assuming one exists?

    (3) dirawein: The ancient, magical roads built by the Aerdi supposedly still function. What sort of function would that be? Do they simply allow quick transport over long distances (LGG 73)? Or are there other properties?

    (4) Bandit Kingdoms west of the Ritenza: LGG 31 states that Iuz conquered some Bandit Kingdoms that existed between Whyestil Lake and the Ritenza River. These lands later came under the control of the Horned Society (573 CY). Do we have names for these kingdoms? Do we know anything about their character?

    (5) Stellbone Meadows: Was the crazy cleric ever named?

    (6) Sea of Dust: The dustlakes are called "ktosor-hep" and the meenlocks are called "osid-mrin." What language is this? Flan?

    (7) Pits of Azak-Zil: There is a nomad legend that there are ancient nonhuman people in the mesas of the southern Abbor-Alz. Some say they still guard the area. Have these "ancients" been developed in any form?

    (8) Graf, beygraf, plar: What do these titles mean? What is their relative power to other titles? What language do they derive from? Are there any other funky "plar-ish" titles out there?

    (9) Thornward: Has the city ever been mapped? Developed in any meaningful way?

    (10) Oerthmagic: Other than the mention in LGG (under Blackmoor) and the likely unrelated tome entitled "Oerthmagik" (Dragon 200), is there any other information about this form of magic?

    (11) Egg of Coot: Is "Egg" a title and "Coot" a place? Is "Egg of Coot" a title or name? I get the impression it's the former, but then LGJ seems to think EoC is a place as well...

    (12) Sea Barbarians ("Zeai"): Cousins of the Cruski, etc. I assume they are of Suloise extraction, but is their bloodline as pure as that of their cousins? Is "zeai" a term in the Cold Tongue, Ancient Flan, the Nomad dialect? Have these people shown up anywhere outside the LGG?

    (13) Nomad dialect: Is it a derivative of Flan? Mixed with Oeridian / Suloise? Is it just another way of saying "Ancient Flan?" If so, how would it differ from the language spoken by the Ur-Flan mystics / Vecna (when he was alive)?

    (14) Crown of Blackmoor: Mentioned anywhere outside of LGG?

    (15) Teuod Fent: ex-Bandit King turned "baron" of Ramshorn. Dragon 56 says he was from Rookroost. Am I to assume that he joined Iuz, then fled to Ramshorn, leaving Rookroost to General Pernevi and his fiendish advisors? Or, did he see the futility of resisting Iuz and take his government into exile, whereby Pernevi walked in unmolested? If it's the latter, then the legend of the ravens keeping Rookroost safe doesn't seem to hold up. If the former, do we know the cause of his exodus from his home?

    That's it for now. I'm sure I'll have more in the near future :)

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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Jan 01, 2007 3:34 pm  

    1&2) Check pages 73-74 LGG on the North Kingdom, you are missing House Torquann and House Atirr.

    Graf is the equal of an earl or count and used in Germany, Austria and Sweden. This is confirmed in DMG 1st edition p.89. This entry also lists the Bey as an Asian title equal to a Marquis or Prince. I am sure others will have more to help.


    Last edited by Baramay on Mon Jan 01, 2007 3:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Jan 01, 2007 3:35 pm  

    1) Not that I can think of.

    2) I don't believe a full canon list of Aerdi Overkings exists.

    3) They are plot macguffins. They let you ignore travel times whenever it suits your purposes.

    4) No and no. An evil and corrupt person might refer to my recent OJ article as a side reference to developing such.

    5) Not that I am aware of.

    6) I would presume Suloise, otherwise Baklunish, as they are named by the people of the Sulhaut Mountains.

    7)The closest was in some LG material. I don't believe it has full details.

    8) Graf is German. It means "an official" and is related to the word for "reeve" which is part of the compound "shire-reeve" and thence "sherriff." In precedence, a Graf is considered a Count, although in the HRE it could be exceptionally variable.
    A Beygraf is obviously a dual-language title, as Bey is an Arab title roughly equivalent to a Count. His title is basically Count-Count.
    Plar appears to be a unique title created by EGG. There is an article somewhere on CF exploring the concept.

    9) Maybe by the LG Bissel Triad, not otherwise.

    10) No. One might presume it is related to Oerthblood.

    11) Completely unknown. The GH version is different from the original Blackmoor version.

    12) Not that I am aware of. I would expect it is Suloise.

    13) That is a major mess. I would suggest it is just Flan, unless you want to introduce linguistic complexity to your campaign.

    14) Greyhawk Adventures I believe.

    15) Not a clue. Perhaps the LG Bandit Kingdoms Triad has developed this.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
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    Mon Jan 01, 2007 4:05 pm  

    I'll answer what I can off the top of my head

    2) Not 100% canon but check out Toran's Timeline of Aerdi Grand Princes and Overkings They're not so much lines like we think of them but overkings who bore those names. Some of the Torans and Erharts are canon so the name itself is canon.

    3) Again not canon but Paul Looby did a nice little sidebar on the dirawaen in his "Cities of Aerdy:Kalstrand-Vity of Gold" article in Oerth Journal # 17. It's on p. 10.

    4) I'm pretty sure nothing else has ever been said on this.

    6) My guess would be Suel.

    7) Not that I'm aware although maybe they're referring to the Wind Dukes.

    8) Graf is a German title equivalent to Count and Earl in the real world. Bey is an Ottoman administrative title. It seems Guygax combined the two to get Beygraf, I'm asumming to reflect the cross-cultural character of Ket. Plar is entirely made-up. Wolfsire did an article titled On Plars: A Squire’s Tutorial with a nice explanation for the title. Fasstal is also made up. I suspect it's Suel in origin. Herzog is made up as a title although it is a Germanic name. From usage I'm guessing it was Aerdi for prince. Somebody gave a translation once but I can't remember what it was. Rhelt is given as a title equal to king in the 1e World of Greyhawk Guide but was never applied to any rule until the LGG which uses it for the ruler of Stonehold. I had always assumed Rhalta given to the queen of Celene was the feminine form of it and it was an Elven title. Szek is a Hungarian place name I think. Used in old Onnwal at least. Search for these terms in the forums for further discussion on them.

    11) The Egg of Coot is a place, a title, a descriptive term, and many suspect a way of calling E. Gary Gygax an old coot. Check out the article on Blackmoor in Oerth Journal # 5 for more non-canon info.

    12) Same source as above for more info on the Zeai.
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Jan 01, 2007 5:55 pm  
    Re: Motley Questions

    ephealy wrote:
    (1) Celestial Houses of the Aerdi: I've got six on my list (Cranden, Darmen, Garasteth, Haxx, Naelax, and Rax). Am I missing any?


    Torquann and Atirr, as pointed out above.
    The Haxx may be regarded as parvenus and mightn't be considered on the same level as the traditional Celestial Houses (though that's all arguable)
    Similarly, the Naelax-Selor (who gave us Chelor I through III as Herzogs of the South Province) might not have been counted as a Celestial House (much as they'd have wanted to be). There's also the complication that they're an offshoot of the Naelax (like the Nyrond branch of Rax-Nyrond).

    Quote:
    (4) Bandit Kingdoms west of the Ritenza: LGG 31 states that Iuz conquered some Bandit Kingdoms that existed between Whyestil Lake and the Ritenza River. These lands later came under the control of the Horned Society (573 CY). Do we have names for these kingdoms? Do we know anything about their character?


    Nothing in Canon - except vague references in the History of the Greyhawk Wars to petty lords who were formerly Ferrondi vassals, but were either fully independent or so in all but name (probably taking advantage of the weakness of the Furyondian throne).
    Most of the Bandit Kingdoms would have originally been Aerdi fiefs before the Ferrondi Revolt.

    Quote:
    (7) Pits of Azak-Zil: There is a nomad legend that there are ancient nonhuman people in the mesas of the southern Abbor-Alz. Some say they still guard the area. Have these "ancients" been developed in any form?


    The LGG apocrypha (elsewhere on Canonfire) mentions several races of Cairn Builders - some of them non-human. One of these is certainly the Vaati or Wind Dukes, though there is at least one other non-human race to choose from. There's no direct link (AFAIK) between the Cairn Builders and the nonhumans mentioned in Azak Zil - but it's not an unreasonable assumption.

    Quote:
    (12) Sea Barbarians ("Zeai"): Cousins of the Cruski, etc. I assume they are of Suloise extraction, but is their bloodline as pure as that of their cousins? Is "zeai" a term in the Cold Tongue, Ancient Flan, the Nomad dialect? Have these people shown up anywhere outside the LGG?


    I'd call this as Cold Tongue - in keeping with Fruztii, Schnai, Cruski etc. Of course, as the Cold Tongue is a hybrid, it could come from a Flan root.
    AFAIK, they're only mentioned in the LGG - though they may have come from an obscure Blackmoor reference (?).

    Quote:
    (13) Nomad dialect: Is it a derivative of Flan? Mixed with Oeridian / Suloise? Is it just another way of saying "Ancient Flan?" If so, how would it differ from the language spoken by the Ur-Flan mystics / Vecna (when he was alive)?


    I assume you're talking about Ordai? If so, that'd be based on Ancient Baklunish with some Oerid additions and probably some borrowed Flan words.

    The Nomads are descended from the Brazen Horde, a Baklunish people who swept out of the plains south of the Bakoury Lands, across the Plains of the Paynims and into Ull. Many settled, but others got tangled up with Ulli Oerids and Bakluni and raided into Ket and points east, while another branch (The Relentless Horde, led by Kha-Khan Ogobanuk) split off north through Tusmit, Ekbir and up onto the steppes, where they tangled with the Rovers. They split into the Chakyik and Weigwur after Ogobanuk croaked.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Mon Jan 01, 2007 6:37 pm  
    Re: Motley Questions

    ephealy wrote:
    (3) dirawean: The ancient, magical roads built by the Aerdi supposedly still function. What sort of function would that be? Do they simply allow quick transport over long distances (LGG 73)? Or are there other properties?


    As I read it, they're just really good roads - they're flat and regular and they don't get icy, snowy, or muddy. They were made using earth elementals and incorporate permanent weather-resistant magics. They don't, however, incorporate teleportation or haste effects. They don't make travelers actually move supernaturally fast. You move faster than you would on a normal road because these roads are better than other roads. You move as fast as you would on any similar flat, dry, regular surface, and tire at the same rate you would tire in similar conditions elsewhere. That's it.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 05, 2002
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    Mon Jan 01, 2007 10:46 pm  

    4) The Bandit Kingdoms and their leaders were all named and descriptions given for their forces in Dragon #64 I believe. I don’t have this with me but perhaps someone with the CD could post it. It was the same issue that introduced the Barbarian class and the Bandit NPC class, IIRC. However, these “kingdoms” are not kingdoms in the sense of traditional tracts of land. Rather, they are whatever lands happen to be held at the time by the bandits who style themselves kings. Thus, the boundaries shift and change over the years, the kingdoms split or merge or vanish. Whatever groups are in power “now” in your campaign will define what the kingdoms are.

    5) Bernal ItE p. 49 “The Western Lands”

    8) I talk about the terms Häuptling (Headman), Plar, Szek, Socman, Hetman, Voorman, Hintervoorman, and Übervoorman in my CF article, “History of Government in Perrenland”.

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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Jan 02, 2007 1:17 pm  

    RE OERTHBLOOD: I don't have access to Dragon 294. Would anyone care to look on page 93 summarize the information about it found there? Other than the Dragon 294 reference, the only other source I'm aware of is ETO8, where there is nothing specific. Anyone have sources to add?
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:18 pm  

    Quote:
    (13) Nomad dialect: Is it a derivative of Flan? Mixed with Oeridian / Suloise? Is it just another way of saying "Ancient Flan?" If so, how would it differ from the language spoken by the Ur-Flan mystics / Vecna (when he was alive)?


    What exactly do you mean by "Nomad dialect"? There are many "nomads". Do you mean Tiger and Wolf Nomads and/or the Rovers of the Barrens? I think you probably mean these groups, but there are also the tribes of the Paynims, the nomads of the Dry Steppes, nomads of the Bright Desert, and others besides.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:35 pm  
    RE CELESTIAL HOUSES

    I was under the impression that the so-called "Celestial" houses were from the original Aerdi that settled on the heart of what would one day be the Great Kingdom. I'm sure other houses have come and gone in the history of these Oeridians, but the "celestial" moniker is a was of saying "old money." For instance, House Torquann is specifically mentioned as a member of the club (I just missed the reference - LGG 73). However, House Atirr is not mentioned as being so lucky. In fact, they are said to be a rather new house. So, is it that all houses of the Aerdi and their descendants are considered "Celestial," or is that term reserved for the founding fathers, so to speak? I'm hoping it's the latter - just seems more cool.

    Woesigner, I'm with you concerning House Haxx. When I was taking notes on them the first time, I put a big (?) next to the title Celestial House. Regarding Naelax-Selor and Rax-Nyrond, it don't think that a branch of a Celestial House would, by definition, forfeit their right to the title. Sure, the cousin of Overlord Portillan was behind Nyrond breaking from the Great Kingdom. Does that mean he's less a member of House Rax? I'm sure that over time the two branches (Nyrond and Ahlissa) grew apart, but they had the same roots. That said, a line has to be drawn somewhere. If not, we can't distinguish anything. This is part of the reason why I would prefer the Celestial Houses being the ones that were present at the founding of the Aerdi city-states - the ones that banded together to conquer their neighbors. Whether a house branches or not can be handles independently of the question of the corporate entity being a part of the "old money" club.
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:31 pm  

    As I read ItU;
    Quote:
    As a thumbnail sketch, the major royal houses of note are: Naelax, Rax-Nyrond, Torquann, Garasteth, Cranden and Darmen.


    These six houses are the "Celestial Houses".

    Within the "Aristocracy" section is mentioned the "secondary aristocracy"
    Quote:
    These liegemen form the bulk of the "secondary aristocracy" of Aerdy; the Dukes, Barons, Counts, and so on.


    There is no encompassing list of these lesser aristocratic houses.

    It also says some of these nobles will be mentioned within the sections; Vir is mentioned as powerful in the Knurl (formerly Bone March), while Haxx maybe powerful in Naerie (LGG), the Naelax-Selor branch was given the South Province after dispossesing the Cranden, while these "houses" have considerable power locally, I would argue none are "Celestial" but rather belong to the "secondary aristocracy".


    Last edited by Crag on Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:24 pm  
    Another House

    I wouldn't consider House Vir to be a member of the "Celestial" club, but it is a House of the Aerdy, so I suppose it could join the list I'm making. So far I've got the following:

    Atirr *
    Cranden
    Darmen
    Garasteth
    Haxx *
    Naelax
    Rax
    Torquann
    Vir *

    * not sure if I'd consider these to be "Celestial"
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:10 am  

    ephealy wrote:
    RE OERTHBLOOD: I don't have access to Dragon 294. Would anyone care to look on page 93 summarize the information about it found there? Other than the Dragon 294 reference, the only other source I'm aware of is ETO8, where there is nothing specific. Anyone have sources to add?


    There was some information in the Return of the Eight. I recommend the issue of Dragon - it has some nice info about Irongate. Info on Oerthblood was quite detailed so I can't recall all of it but add 10 to hardness, 150% hp, +1 luck bonus for weapons and some DR for armour plus a few other bits and bobs.
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:30 am  

    Ephealy: I'm inclined to agree with you that the title "Celestial House" probably refers to the original founding houses, with the others - the Atirrs, the Virs etc being secondary.
    Novice

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    Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:18 pm  

    'Bey' is currently still in use in Turkish. It is the equivalent of 'mister' these days. However, it also meant (and still means) 'gentleman'. Of old, it also meant 'master' or 'lord'. Prominent members of the society used to be called 'Bey' in the Ottoman Empire. Also, a 'bey' would be the ruler of a sizable city/area and its environs. Its meaning as 'chief, overlord, mayor' is falling out of usage today.

    Although Turks, to my knowledge, have been using this title way back when they were in the Central Asia--that would be about 1500 to 2500 years ago--, I do not have a reliable source at the tip of my fingers for the etymology of this word. From the sound of it, I'd guess if it really wasn't originated as a Turkish word, it would have to be Persian.

    For a quick English-Turkish translation, visit http://www.seslisozluk.com .
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