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    Canonfire :: View topic - Irongate in Dragon 351
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    Irongate in Dragon 351
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    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 14, 2007
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    Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:05 am  
    Irongate in Dragon 351

    Wow - finally. I have had a Greyhawk campaign set in Irongate for more years than I care to think about. Now finally something more than the few paragraphs provided in official material.

    I was always going to be unsatisfied with the amount of material and I certainly hoped to see certain areas covered.

    What was there was great. I loved the artwork for the city - I had no idea it was perched on top of a mesa - very dramatic. The depth of the undercity also surprised me.

    Two dwarven clans were mentioned by name, one from Irongate and one from the Iron Hills.

    No light was shed on Cobb Drag's heritage, just what I have seen on the boards here previously. I'm going with the dragon theory myself. I dont get the dwarven heritage theory. Either he is a dwarf or not. There are no half-dwarves so I dont see how a human could have dwarven heritage.

    The deep doors idea is great. I have seen some unofficial underdark maps for greyhawk which showed none anywhere near Irongate, so I guess I assumed there was no connection to it in Irongate. I love the fact that there is.

    Oerthblood is covered by another topic, but I like it.

    Tuaren Leedstit: I thought that Exp9 seems a little low for a world class geology sage. I would add more levels.

    Some questions:

    How many Greyhawkers out there care about stuff to do with Irongate?
    I love it, but I figure it is not one of the most popular areas of Greyhawk.

    It seems as though the authors would have a lot more information generated for Irongate. Any chance of seeing a "city" article in Dungeon along the lines they have done for other cities, like Sasserine? Or better yet an adventure arc set in or around Irongate. I figured this could be possible since the area is not covered by Living Greyhawk. And the city and environs lend itself to some great adventures.

    What do other people make of the article?

    I believe the authors read these boards - so thanks a lot. Really enjoyed seeing something on "my" corner of Greyhawk.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3836
    From: So. Cal

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    Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:55 pm  

    You can find some of the preliminary stuff that the Irongate article was based on here: http://www.melkot.com/locations/irongate.html

    You will note that the creator of the site is one of the authors of the article.

    You may also have noticed that the letters in the name of this same author are those of the geologist. The author is a geologist too by the way. 9th level is fine for a specialist of this sort. I imagine that maxed out ranks of 12 and the Skill Focus feat, and maybe even the Trivial Knowledge gnomish feat from Races of Stone(roll twice for Knowledge & bardic lore checks and choose the better of the two) would make him quite knowledgeable about his specialty. Besides, Maldin/Denis/Tuaren isn't 10th level yet, so he remains at 9th level until further adventuring takes place (i.e. he creates more maps and/or writes more material for Irongate, or anything else for that matter). Wink
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:39 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    9th level is fine for a specialist of this sort. I imagine that maxed out ranks of 12 and the Skill Focus feat, and maybe even the Trivial Knowledge gnomish feat from Races of Stone(roll twice for Knowledge & bardic lore checks and choose the better of the two) would make him quite knowledgeable about his specialty. Besides, Maldin/Denis/Tuaren isn't 10th level yet, so he remains at 9th level until further adventuring takes place (i.e. he creates more maps and/or writes more material for Irongate, or anything else for that matter). Wink


    Class levels for sages are always problematic since there is no logical reason for them to be good in combat but that goes hand in hand with the higher skill ranks.

    Using Feats to boot total bonuses is defintinitely preferable to increasing class levels. If there is a flaw (called something like Bookworm) that would reduce attack rolls in exchange for one or more non-combat related feat, that might help too but the system still seems flawed.

    For example, assuming Arkalan of Ket is a 20th Level Expert he would have potentially high hit points and high attack rolls when he is also a 70-year old alcoholic. While it is possible to balance out high abilities by reducing stats for aging etc, it still wouldn't really expalin why a drunkard who spends all his time in a library has the same chance to hit and more hit points than an 8th level fighter!
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 11, 2001
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    Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:06 am  

    Perhaps he didn't spend his entire time in a library?

    :)
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:20 am  

    Lol - well yes but why does gaining experience from killing monsters HAVE to be a pre-requisite for a sage gaining knowledge? Some people might learn that way but surely a scholar who has never picked up a dagger in his life should still be able to have high bonuses to his knowledge skills?

    Hmm maybe the commoner class with the Education and skill Focus feats might fit the bill more than an expert. Still not a perfect solution though!
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:24 am  

    If it helps, I dropped the expert to weak BAB and the warrior to medium. End result, experts can't fight any better than adepts and commoners and aristocrats and warriors are basically no different except for money and skills.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
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    From: Orlane, Gran March

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    Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:32 pm  

    PaulN6,

    I have developed a system that will be submitted shortly, where NPCs gain xp as they age. You may find it more appealing than the adventuring sage model.
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:02 pm  

    I guess I don't understand why sages, commoners, and other such NPCs need levels at all. Or necessarily even skill ranks. Are you actually rolling to see if your NPC sage knows the plot information the players are seeking from him?

    I usually give them skill ranks just for my later reference (ie, so I don't forget what he's actually good at if I don't use him for a year or two), but otherwise who cares what his stats are? If he's an 80 year old non combatant and ends up in a combat, there's not really a lot of reason to need stats to determine his fate.

    The age based system I'll need to see before I can properly comment. But I will say based on the preliminaries discussed in other threads that just being older doesn't mean better, even in purely knowledge based skills. Talent matters. A 60 year old mediocrity isn't going to be as high a level expert as a 25 year old budding genius.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    From: So. Cal

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    Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:41 am  

    Ars Magika uses a point system based on age. Wizards start out very powerful, but they are kind of the focal point of AM. The main difference in AM is that points are used to buy everything, even attack and defense ability. If you make the mistake of NOT specializing whatsoever, you will be very ineffective at most things. The older you are the more skill points you have (to start with), but you can gain skill points by adventuring. You don't really go up levels in the game, just become more skilled. There are no hit points, but wound levels instead. A character with a low defense score and no armor, like a sage or most other Experts, is likely to be hit very easily, and get seriously wounded very easily.

    If you like to study rules mechanics, I strongly recommend picking up a copy of Ars Magika. The magic system is great too, and is probably my favorite of any game.

    That being said, the topic of npc power levels and abilities should be the topic of its own thread. This one is supposed to about Irongate, so back to that...

    There is a chance, a *CHANCE*, that there may be a web enhancement for Irongate(other than Maldin's site that is). We will have to wait and see though.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:28 pm  

    Actually, I'm quite familiar with Ars Magica (2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th edition). While it does have an age component in its exp calcs for NPCs and starting characters, its not a level based system so its not really comparable. Not to mention the lifestyle of ArsM Magi is just a teensy bit different from that of D&D wizard PCs :P
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
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    From: Orlane, Gran March

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    Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:07 am  

    There is actually a very recent thread that discusses npc's. It is here:

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2336.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: May 14, 2003
    Posts: 349
    From: the Free City of Dyvers (Kansas City, MO)

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    Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:28 pm  

    I had been thinking of starting a new WoG campaign in and around Irongate for some time, and the article in 351 has certainly got my mind working on it again (even though it gave only the smallest bit more info!). I hadn't really thought about Cobb Darg's race or abilities, but I like the idea of him being a dragon in human guise.
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    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:10 am  

    Is there any info on the nearby dwarf kingdom - I can recall only a few articles on magical sites in the hills...
    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Jan 24, 2007 1:29 am  

    PaulN6 wrote:
    Is there any info on the nearby dwarf kingdom - I can recall only a few articles on magical sites in the hills...


    No big chunks of canon aside from what's served up in the various gazetteer entries on the Iron Hills in the 83 box set, FtA and the LGG. The Iron Hills may have been mentioned in passing in one of the"what's going on in the Flanaess" in the early Dragons. Certainly the dispute between King Holgi and the Count of Idee was.

    The article you're thinking about was probably about the Hradikar barrows in the eastern Headlands. It appeared as an LGJ Mysterious Places in Dragon (or Dungeon - I don't recall).
    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:16 am  

    Well in that case Holgi's realm sounds like it's ripe for a Canonfire article! Any takers? I bet the Onnwal Triad has useful information Idea
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:58 am  
    The Iron Hills

    PaulN6 wrote:
    Well in that case Holgi's realm sounds like it's ripe for a Canonfire article! Any takers? Idea


    Yep. Been planning to submit one for a while. Time is a problem but if my kids behave I might be able to submit one in a few weeks.

    To continue some good discussion on this thread:

    1. Who do the dwarves of Irongate and the Iron Hills worship? Moradin etc or Fortubo or Ulaa?

    My thinking is that the Iron Hills dwur worship Moradin while the Irongate dwarves are less religious, and follow mostly Fortubo, while still acknowledging Moradin as the all-father.

    2. How large is dwarven population of the Iron Hills. I vaguely recall seeing a figure of 26,000 but I suspect that was a non-official source. Anyone else know better?

    I'll start a new thread called Irongate and the Iron Hills and see if people can contribute some ideas.
    Master Greytalker

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    From: Orlane, Gran March

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    Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:40 am  

    Quote:
    Time is a problem but if my kids behave I might be able to submit one in a few weeks.



    Hah! If you figure that out let me know! Does it involve sedatives!

    All kidding aside, what is the relationship of the dwarves across the Flaness? Are the dwarves of the Iron Hills related by clan name to those of the Lortmils for example? I would like to see your article, and if it hinted at how the dwarves fit into the world as a whole, that would be really cool.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:17 pm  

    If I recall correctly, Dethand workd up an article on the migration of the dwarven clans, their history, and their relations. Perhaps he'll post a link to it here, or will put it up on Canonfire if he has not done so already.

    Here is a link to one thread on dwarves, with links and other sources as well:

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=927&highlight=dwarves
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Jan 26, 2007 3:34 am  

    LG Onnwal didn't really get into the details of the Iron Hills too much actually (though, like a hundred other things, I often meant to).

    P.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 09, 2003
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    From: Tennessee, between Ft. Campbell & APSU

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    Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:18 pm  

    Another thread, dredged from the depths!

    I've never run adventures in Irongate, but I've always wanted to. I'll have to get Dragon #351 one of these days.

    Phalastar_Greycloak wrote:
    No light was shed on Cobb Drag's heritage, just what I have seen on the boards here previously. I'm going with the dragon theory myself. I dont get the dwarven heritage theory. Either he is a dwarf or not. There are no half-dwarves so I dont see how a human could have dwarven heritage...


    -Covered in another thread I recently "dredged", but Darg could easily be a "Half-Dwarf" in the same way you have "Half-Ogres" and "Half-Everything Else"; it's just not very common. Someone pointed out that the Scalet Bro's Komazar proves that it's "possible", as far as canon is concerned...

    Phalastar_Greycloak wrote:
    Tuaren Leedstit: I thought that Exp9 seems a little low for a world class geology sage. I would add more levels...


    ..answerd by Cebrion:

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...The author is a geologist too by the way. 9th level is fine for a specialist of this sort. I imagine that maxed out ranks of 12 and the Skill Focus feat, and maybe even the Trivial Knowledge gnomish feat from Races of Stone...


    -Another topic from a recently "dredged" thread!

    I'd say that even Exp9 is probably ridiculously high. Consider a very talented Exp1:

    Skill ranks= +4;

    Stat' of 18= +4;

    Skill Focus= +3;

    "Mercantile/Craft/Professional Background" (from one of the Dragons which had the GH feats)= +2 (assuming daddy was a skilled whatever)...

    ...and you end up with a modifier of +13. If they "take 10", then there are few tasks in their specialty they couldn't handle as trained teenagers. Add in benefits in INT or WIS for age, plus take them to Exp3 (more ranks, SF in a related field), or Exp4 (more ranks, plus increase the basic stat'), and they can handle almost anything in their specialty.
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