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    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 8:42 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    The mythology of the game does, however, put the demon lords at a status equal to that of at least lesser gods, and there are many examples of fiendish lords and gods fighting with the outcome of such a struggle in doubt.

    . . . Regardless, there's a problem with a CR 20 Yeenoghu and CR 23 Demogorgon. A cosmology where fiendish rulers cannot hold their own against ambitious or vengeful gods - or even their own servants - is an inconsistent one.


    What Rip said.

    And, I'd add, there is some cognitive dissonance between previous thoughts of demon lords and thoughts of those same entities then described in terms of the rules as killable by a 20th level party, which in 3X is not the achievement it once would have been.

    Example (in general terms of the outer planes, not GH specific) - Throne of Bloodstone sees 100th level characters as appropriate to challenge Orcus. Now, Orcus isn't even a challenge for 30th level characters. Looking just at to how Orcus is convieved - that is a big comedown.
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    GVD
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
    Posts: 674
    From: Bronx, NY

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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 8:50 am  

    As noted before here, I think Q1 established the concept rather directly.
    Lolth (the example in question) is also a lesser deity of the Greyhawk setting, and would have the additional powers noted. If that was done, she would almost certainly be undefeatable by any party.
    Drop a divine rank or three on any of the demon lords in FC I and you have the same effect. Throwing gratuitous epic HD at them achieves very little. Just ask anyone in the chat. Throwing together a CR 58 mega-aboleth took me about 1 minute to throw levels and templates at it, 5 minutes to calculate the CR, and another 10 minutes to consider adding a few more levels to bump it to CR 63 so it can have epic wizard spells as well as psionic powers. (It will take me 2-3 hours to do the stat block if I ever feel the need to use it.) At that level, the critter is irrelevant, only the background matters. And on that level, FC I is even better.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
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    From: Bronx, NY

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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 8:55 am  

    Throne of Bloodstone was designed as a deliberate PC killer to eliminate all those absurd, 100th level, Waldorf's people were running around bragging about.
    I would hardly consider that as the standard by which to rate demon lords.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3071
    From: Michigan

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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 9:01 am  

    I don't think anybody is disputing that the demon lords in FC1 can be upgraded to suit the tastes of the individual DM. On that level, there's no problem.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 9:28 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    I don't think anybody is disputing that the demon lords in FC1 can be upgraded to suit the tastes of the individual DM. On that level, there's no problem.


    Agreed. The problem a number see is on a conceptual level.
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    GVD
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 9:54 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    I don't think anybody is disputing that the demon lords in FC1 can be upgraded to suit the tastes of the individual DM. On that level, there's no problem.


    If you object to them being presented at a level that would make upgrading necessary, then you are in fact saying there is a problem with doing so.
    Demon lords presented as CR 100 deities would eliminate that "problem." It would also mean nobody could ever use them as adversaries. That would be a much greater problem on a "conceptual level."
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3071
    From: Michigan

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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:09 am  

    Samwise wrote:
    If you object to them being presented at a level that would make upgrading necessary


    I don't object to that, no.

    Quote:
    It would also mean nobody could ever use them as adversaries. That would be a much greater problem on a "conceptual level."


    Not for me, it wouldn't be.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 05, 2007
    Posts: 290
    From: The Pomarj

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    Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:12 pm  

    Lassiviren wrote:

    Wait, I just had an idea... The Greyhawk City Arena presents Ultimate Fighting Championship Demon Princes Edition or UFCDPE for short.

    All 20th level parties on Oerth should preregister for this event where Grazzt and company will face off against them man-o-v.-demon-o, come one come all!


    They could offer it on pay per view too! Just 50 or 100 gold and you'll get an incantation that will allow whatever scrying device you own to view the event.

    (Yes, I am being silly here)
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 23, 2002
    Posts: 46
    From: Texas

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    Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:25 am  

    Excellent threadomancy, BlueWitch.
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