Signup
Welcome to... Canonfire! World of GreyhawK
Features
Postcards from the Flanaess
Adventures
in Greyhawk
Cities of
Oerth
Deadly
Denizens
Jason Zavoda Presents
The Gord Novels
Greyhawk Wiki
#greytalk
JOIN THE CHAT
ON DISCORD
    Canonfire :: View topic - XP System
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    XP System
    Author Message
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 28, 2007
    Posts: 725
    From: Montevideo, Minnesota, US

    Send private message
    Sat Jul 28, 2007 1:29 am  
    XP System

    Hi, I realatively new to the forum and I suspect this question has been kicked around before but I just want to ask everyone out there who played 1st and 2nd edition Greyhawk.

    Who uses the new XP points table as it is written? Does anyone modify the table or how they award XP in their game? Do you prefer the old tables from previous editions or the new one?

    Personally, I prefer the old tables. In order to use what's available however I multiply the level times the amount of XP points listed to reach the actual total I require for a new level.

    For example, Level 2 costs 2 x 1000 for a total of 2000 XP.
    Level 5 costs 5 x 10,000 for a total of 50,000 XP.
    Level 10 costs 10 x 45,000 for a total of 450,000 XP.

    I prefer characters who don't advance to 20th level in a year or two of real time. How about you, what do you do?

    I can only imagine what Gary Gygax thinks. I read a interview he did about 3rd edition and to be polite about it, he really disliked the new game system (which from his viewpoint I can understand). He didn't address the XP system specifically, but did make some general statements about character classes, indicating his disapproval.

    EileenProphetofIstus
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 25, 2007
    Posts: 951
    From: Neck Deep in the Viscounty of Verbobonc

    Send private message
    Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:15 am  

    Yep, you guessed it - this has been discussed before. Nonetheless, welcome to the forums, and I for one think the topic could stand more discussion.

    I've played every version of the game that's been released since 1977, and I think you have a point about the 3.5e xp rules. But, I also think the 1e and 2e xp rules for xp were broken, too.

    I used to complain in the old days that it took forever to get a character to high levels. I don't think one single campaign I played in during those days lasted long enough to get much past 7th or 8th level. While I admit I usually enjoy playing at mid-levels most, it still got pretty frustrating when you'd played a character for years and your level was still in single digits. The fact that each class advanced at a different rate also bothered me in those days. I realize this was done for "game balance," but I'm not that sure how truly balanced it was.

    The 3.5e rules have the opposite problem. In a recent campaign I DMed, it took the players a mere 12 months to reach 23rd level - and that included no fudging of the rules at all. By the end of it, the players were having difficulty managing their characters because they hadn't had time to master their own abilities. Worse, the characters had become less like "characters" and more like stat blocks. The 3.5e rules were definitely written to please the munchkins and power-gamers out there.

    In my current campaign I use the 3.5e rules. This will upset a lot of people, but frankly, I think that rules set is more balanced and versatile when it's all said and done. It's also a cleaner, simpler system to learn and use. I use the rules as written, with only one exception: I now award only 1/4th XP in order to give the players time to develop their characters.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 28, 2007
    Posts: 725
    From: Montevideo, Minnesota, US

    Send private message
    Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:57 am  

    I completely agree with you. The old system was to slow, the new one, well....not much can be said for it. I played 1st edition and a little 2nd edition so we were use to the extended character advancement. Of coarse the most difficult thing about adjusting th XP system using modules like Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil where multiple levels are expected to be achieved becomes a challenge. Takes a lot of thinking on the DM's part to make it work sometimes.

    In the old days when I would play with my high school buddies we would advance a character to about 9th (in about 2-3 years of real time), worked great at the time because by then people graduted and moved on. Now I play with my family, a more stable, long lasting group so I can afford slow play.

    The other factor I consider is how much time people put into character creation. In 1st edition it took a half hour or less, our DM didn't concern himself with character history or personalities for the character. When I DM we cover these things pretty thouroughly. The more time someone spends putting into the character the longer they should be able to play them before peaking out.

    Naturally everyone's play style varies as well as how fast they should advance. I agree with you, the new system was developed for those who were younger and attention span may be shorter.

    I think Wizards of the Coast made a grave mistake by not including a single chart which showed 3 columns of XP to choose from. One being fast like they have, make that the official one. The second being considerably slower (but not like 1st and 2nd edition), and 3rd, print a column similar to one in 1st edition. Give the DM their choice based on the particulars of their game. Not a tough editing challenge to fit that into one chart or even add a section in the DM guide rather than going through all of the variable XP advice. Sometimes you gotta wonder what they were thinking!
    _________________
    Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 26, 2007
    Posts: 19
    From: Las Vegas

    Send private message
    Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:09 am  

    My DM (who shall remain nameless) has developed an XP progression that countsencounters rather than any real XP value. 15 and you level up. It was intended to slow down our levelling up but it. And it does to the extent tat he can send higher CR monsters at us and pay us the same amount as a couple of Kobolds. But we still seem to be progressing at the same rate as the regular 3.5 XP chart. Characters levelling up every two or three game sessions. To be honest I think in his last game where he used the XP chart from the book it took us longer.
    In my game I use a simple for for controlling XP. I lie. If its a CR 15 I tell them its a CR 13 and give them XP as such, sometimes I will send an extra NPC with the party who is lower level. he doesn't do as much but that is one extra character to divide XP with.. Has that slowed us down? Well we play twice a month and a campaign that started at 5th level is now averaging 18th level. The players who make it to every game are 19th level. Wow! So as this campaign is winding down I might take your advice to heart Bubba, and for my next campaign and award 1/4 XP
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 17, 2004
    Posts: 924
    From: Computer Desk

    Send private message
    Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:33 am  

    I seem to say this every XP thread Wink

    I started with basic and advancing through the various editions until I played with a group that simply did away with the concept of XP all together except for RP awards. It was quite a shock, however it worked out very well allowing the DM to control the pace of the game and encourage character development.

    Even the powergamers within the group began RPing and taking an interest in their characters and game world, once they finally accepted not eveything was simply walking XP anymore.
    Site Theocrat

    Joined: Aug 15, 2003
    Posts: 235
    From: WoG 2.0

    Send private message
    Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:16 pm  
    Players Whine

    Hi all -
    I am Heneraldo's infamous DM. Each encounter is worth 1 XP. An encounter could be 3 orcs or 30 orcs. In the case of the 3 bonedrinkers, I gave 1 XP per bonedrinker.
    For lvls 2-4 you need 15 encounters to lvl. 4-7 20 encounters, 8-10 you need 25 encounters to lvl. And so forth.
    I also give ability score bonus and feat bonus at a slightly faster scale as well. This is to off set the higher XP requirements.
    Now I also have been reduced to giving XP not just for the monsters, but because Players Whine, for food. The WifeFIEND gets an extra XP because she's missing some of the action by Grilling the chicken for us. She usually pays for it too. Some of the players will bring soda + potato salad and except the same 1 xp point. Sometimes, when we were playing late, I'd give an xp to players that showed up ontime. Thus, now that they are between lvl 6 and 9, the XP requirements are a little higher, and it'll be 3-4 games per lvl. I believe the perfect scenario for my games are about 20 issues to be lvl 6ish, which is where we are at. After which, I'd like to see about 5 issues per level. Of course, you haven't missed any games and have a couple extra things that gave you a bit more XP.

    In the end, really, the XP progression needs to be what you as the DM thinks is appropriate as well as what the Players are willing to put up with. Some say it's 10 issues (issue being a game day) and some say it should be more or less. So long as the players are happy with the direction you are taking the game and the amount of power they are receiving, then I think it's a success. I always look at it this way: If one of my players wants to take their PC to another DM, barring any of the other aspects of that, would they look at his PC and say OK as is, or OK, but you need to remove this, this, this and that. If its more of the latter, then I think its too much power to the PC.
    Hope my thoughts help.
    Be Well. Be Well Without Heneraldo.
    Theocrat Issak
    _________________
    Theocrat Issak
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 28, 2007
    Posts: 725
    From: Montevideo, Minnesota, US

    Send private message
    Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:31 pm  

    Your definetely right about the XP system one uses is a success if it works for the particular group your running, and for another DM maybe it isn't the answer. The progression system I detailed in my previous email works great for me. My wife and I were use to 1st edition so it is what seems normal for us in regards to how quickly one advances. It also allowed me to not worry about giving out to much as well. I give generous stroy awards to offset things as well as something for roleplaying as well.

    It's interesting to see what other people chose to do with the system since Wizards of the Coast changed it so much. The little effort they put in Unearthed Arcana really wasn't worth the page it was printed on. I think that when they made up this sytem they really dropped the ball with the exception of storyward XP. In my opinion, less should be on monsters and more emphasis on story awards and roleplaying.

    The other serious issue I had with it is that they expect NPCs to gain XP and levels the same way. Yea like killing orcs and ogres makes you a better blacksmith. Talk about someone not bothering to think about how the XP system should work. Sometimes WOC takes too many short cuts.
    The only nice thing about their shortcuts is that we can fix it, but frankly I'd rather put my energy elsewhere like writing articles, creating dungeons and working on my world.

    I'm guessing (and maybe I'm wrong) that the majority of the readers here have played 1st and 2nd edition and didn't care for the change. I was in favor of WOC picking up the game at frst, but now, after seeing how they run things, I can only say I'm disappointed with them. They killed my two favorite things, Greyhawk and Top Secret/S.I. by not putting the time and money into either.

    If we ever see a 4th edition I think it will electronic and quite poessibly not even in book form. Sure hope WOC is out of the picture by then.
    How do other Greyhawkers feel about WOC? Impressed? Don't care? Think it could have been better? Or can't wait for someone else to take a crack at D&D and Greyhawk?
    _________________
    Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Dec 07, 2003
    Posts: 636


    Send private message
    Mon Jul 30, 2007 4:57 am  

    I divide xp awards for combat by 4 and award small xp awards (10-100xp) for ideas, playing in character, or intelligent use of tactics or spells, and a story award at the end of each section of the adventure.

    Even then, advancement is a bit more rapid than I'd like but after 16 years (mostly with 2e), our highest level pc is level 14.

    For adventure paths, I would just intersperse side adventures with the main path. This is easier to do with Age of Worms than ToEE but I'm sure it is doable.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 28, 2007
    Posts: 725
    From: Montevideo, Minnesota, US

    Send private message
    Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:45 pm  

    Paul N6
    I ran my group through The Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil last year. I expected it to be a problem because I prefer a snailpace advancement rate. We started the module out at about 8th level or so which made the first third of the module extremely easy. I didn't change anything for the most part. It gave the PCs a sense of false security even though they were aware of the level range the module was designed for.

    The middle portion of the module was about right on for these particular characters. In order to handle the last third or so, I had them hook up with a friendly dragon (which was an indirect hook from the module) who wanted revenge on the temple for stealing her hoard. She travelled with us in human form and only used her real form once throughout the entire adventure. The module also provides several NPC which could be used if need be (we made some use of them but the one I did use was about 3 levels lower than the rest of the group, another one was 1-2 levels less.
    I also had a friend come over (who visits about twice a year) for the final showdow.

    With all this we were able to continue playing without breaking the module up like I thought I'd have to. I'm not big an NPC becoming involved (I let the players handle them) like this but it did make a huge difference. One nice thing about it though is that the adventure seemed more real because local adventurers and townfolk were interested in helping not just being helpless victims waiting for heroes to ride in. It made the whole adventure more believable.

    Of coarse the PCs received less XP for all their help but in the end I gave out a nice story award for finishing a very long adventure and based it on the overal success the group had. My wife rated it as the best module she's ever participated in. It was up their really high for my daughter and I as well.

    Anyway, just thought I'd share!
    _________________
    Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 22, 2001
    Posts: 103
    From: Montevideo (Uruguay)

    Send private message
    Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:21 pm  

    Welcome to the forums Eileen!

    I agree with what was said about 1e XP system that took forever to reach mid-levels and now in 3.5e it's like woosh! your're 20th. In my case I DM a group of 6 players with characters between 12 and 14 level. We noticed as levels went up combats took more time. Maybe is about the game and maybe is about players skills. Sometimes I fudge a little the XP I give if the encounter was too easy, but generally give what the XP chart says. Just my two cents.

    Saludos (from the original Montevideo) ;-)
    Gabriel
    _________________
    Discord: @GrillWizard
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 11, 2001
    Posts: 73
    From: Ballarat, Australia

    Send private message
    Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:26 pm  

    EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
    I was in favor of WOC picking up the game at frst, but now, after seeing how they run things, I can only say I'm disappointed with them. They killed my two favorite things, Greyhawk and Top Secret/S.I. by not putting the time and money into either.


    Given that TSR stopped producing Top Secret/SI in 1992, five years before Wizards bought TSR, I can't see why it's Wizards' fault.

    Wizards have done some excellent things with D&D. The XP system actually explains the basis on which it works, and there's a lot of advice for changing it and what that might mean. If the rate of advancement seems fast to you, slow it down. The basic rate is so fast because so many D&D groups only stick around for a year or so.

    Wizards did some great things with Greyhawk... by leaving it alone.

    Cheers,
    Merric
    _________________
    Merric Blackman
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 28, 2007
    Posts: 725
    From: Montevideo, Minnesota, US

    Send private message
    Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:07 pm  

    Merric:

    Wizards owns the Top Secret/S.I. license, it would have been nice if they had done something with it (use it or sold it), I had hoped that when TSR discontinued the game that Wizards get it going again. But were Greyhawk here so I'll stick to that. Thanks though. Sure miss it.

    Your right by leaving Greyhawk alone they didn't goof it up. Like many people out there I wish that they could have spent time and money on it like they did for Ebberon and The Forgotten Realms. Oh well, can't change things now. I've been finding Greyhawk on the internet without a problem so I have more on my computer now than I can print out (still like hard copies).

    My XP system workd great for me, made the changes I needed early on, I was curious as to what others were doing about it.

    By the way does anyone recall which Dragon/Dungeon issues had the Greyhawk feats in them? Are they posted on the internet anywhere for download? I have tons of magazines but searching through them is difficult and somehow I lost track of which issues the feats were in.
    _________________
    Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 11, 2001
    Posts: 73
    From: Ballarat, Australia

    Send private message
    Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:02 pm  

    Dragon Issues #315 & #319.

    You can buy #319 as a pdf for $4.95
    http://paizo.com/store/downloads/dragon/319

    #315 is only available in print - $7
    http://paizo.com/dragon/products/issues/2004

    Cheers!
    _________________
    Merric Blackman
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 28, 2007
    Posts: 725
    From: Montevideo, Minnesota, US

    Send private message
    Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:17 pm  

    Merric
    Thanks, I really appreciate the issue numbers, you narrowed the search down for me quite a bit.
    _________________
    Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 09, 2003
    Posts: 1341
    From: Clarksville, TN

    Send private message
    Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:35 am  

    EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
    ...The other serious issue I had with it is that they expect NPCs to gain XP and levels the same way. Yea like killing orcs and ogres makes you a better blacksmith. Talk about someone not bothering to think about how the XP system should work. Sometimes WOC takes too many short cuts...


    -I dredged this up, because it fits in with the NPCs and levles discussion...
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Oct 07, 2008
    Posts: 403


    Send private message
    Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:09 am  
    Level Per Module

    When I was in junior high school, my friends and I thought that if the character survived a module, then the character earned a level. The nice thing about that is all the time you save by not tracking what you earned in XP during the game and then calculating each character's net XP earned total (after adjustments such as ability scores).
    Display posts from previous:   
       Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion All times are GMT - 8 Hours
    Page 1 of 1

    Jump to:  

    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot vote in polls in this forum




    Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises

    Contact the Webmaster.  Long Live Spidasa!


    Greyhawk Gothic Font by Darlene Pekul is used under the Creative Commons License.

    PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.
    Page Generation: 0.32 Seconds