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    The Death of Living Greyhawk
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    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Dec 30, 2002
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    From: 1313 StoneCastle Way, Free City of Dyvers, W0G 13F

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    Sun Aug 19, 2007 4:55 pm  
    The Death of Living Greyhawk

    Read and weep GH fans....note underlined sentence.

    Official word:
    Posted by: "Daniel Bailey" uscgdanielbailey
    Sat Aug 18, 2007 10:15 pm (PST)
    A Year of Change: The RPGA in 2008

    As most of you reading this know, Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition was
    announced at Gen Con Indy on this past Thursday evening. This means
    great things for the game, and with that, big changes for the RPGA
    and its programs. Ever since "The Announcement", one of the hot
    topics both at the convention and online has been "What does this
    mean for the future?"

    At our members' meeting this evening, Ian and I talked to the
    assembled players, judges, and staff about the RPGA's future. Even
    though many of you can't be with us, we felt it necessary to send out
    the "official word" to you as soon as the meeting was concluded, so
    you could have all the information in one place. Here we go!

    Campaigns Concluding
    Living Greyhawk has been the face of organized play for the 3rd
    Edition D&D game. Tremendously successful, thousands participate
    worldwide in the biggest shared-world D&D game anywhere. LG has been
    around since the beginning of 3rd Edition, and it will last to the
    end of the 3rd Edition product line. Starting with a two-round
    special at D&D Experience 2008 (February 28 March 2), the campaign
    will begin its final story arc a series of core adventures that
    will build into the climactic two-round finale at Origins 2008. We're
    pulling out all the stops in these final adventures no major NPC is
    off-limits, and you're really going to be a part of the most world-
    affecting story arc we've ever done. We're getting some of the best
    authors to ever write for Living Greyhawk to help with these
    adventures what the Circle has planned is nothing short of amazing.
    While the campaign concludes at Origins next year, it is our
    sincerest desire to provide you an epic conclusion to the campaign we
    all love so much.

    I know you want more specifics, now that the cat's out of the bag.
    Regions will have up to 6 adventures next year all of them will
    premiere no later than June 30, 2008. Metaregions will have 4
    adventures next year, with the same premiere deadline. All adventures
    released in 2007 and 2008 will be playable until December 31, 2008.
    We're also looking at increasing play opportunities for your
    characters in 2008 so they have a better chance of reaching the goals
    you've set for them. The two specials next year the first and last
    adventures in the final core story arc will be available for all
    conventions soon after they premiere at their respective shows. Many
    more players will be able to enjoy all of the final adventures for
    Living Greyhawk, as the specials come to their local shows.

    More information on Living Greyhawk's conclusion will become
    available in the next few weeks on the website.

    Xen'drik Expeditions will also be concluding at Origins 2008. As the
    D&D Campaigns programs use 2-year story arcs, the campaign pulls into
    its last stop right on time. The Factionmasters have prepared a great
    final story arc that really engages all of the factions into a final
    two-round spectacular at Origins next year. Stormreach will never be
    the same after it's over.

    We also bid a fond farewell to Living Kingdoms of Kalamar in 2008. At
    D&D Experience next year, LK will run its special finale adventures.
    All other adventures will be playable through the RPGA until March
    31, 2008.

    So, with the existing campaigns ending, what will rise up to take
    their place? Read on!

    Campaigns Beginning
    At D&D Experience 2008, you'll be able to get your first full-on play
    of D&D 4th Edition in its final form. This will come in the form of
    preview adventures for the next Living campaign Living Forgotten
    Realms! The most popular campaign setting for D&D finally gets its
    turn as a regionalized Living campaign. If you like the system for
    Living Greyhawk, you'll love what we have in store with Living
    Forgotten Realms: more play opportunities for the average gamer,
    fully supported online and offline play, and a greater shared-world
    experience than we've ever done before with a Living campaign. Living
    Forgotten Realms will be the first truly global Living campaign.

    But we can't do it without your help! We're placing a call out for
    administrators to help us on both a global and regional level.
    Information on how you can help will be available in September on the
    RPGA website. Global and regional administrators will get previews of
    4th Edition material as they work to provide the most immersive game
    experience you'll ever find in an organized play campaign.

    D&D Experience 2008 is the place to be for exciting previews of the
    new Living campaign; the campaign fully launches at Gen Con Indy 2008.

    With Xen'drik Expeditions ending, a new D&D Campaigns program will
    take its place. As it is scheduled to begin in late summer/fall 2008,
    we can't yet announce what it will be, but it will improve upon the
    success of Xen'drik. (Of course, we'll be looking for help with that
    as well once again, check on the website in a few weeks for more

    More to Come!
    As 2007 rolls on, we'll have a lot more to talk about regarding our
    current programs, the upcoming programs mentioned above, and other
    exciting new programs coming out in 2008 and beyond. There's still a
    lot more information we want to get out to you, but we have to save
    some of our goodies for a little later!

    Thanks to everyone involved in the RPGA for making our organization
    the success it is today. Stay with us, as it's going to get even

    Game On!

    Ian Richards
    Chris Tulach

    as was emailed to me from James Dempsey, Ratik Triad POC


    So, 4th(5th) Ed "appears" to be the Doom Sayer for Greyhawk...

    Troubled times? or is this an opportunity for GH Lic to be sold? or is WotC planning a new release of Greyhawk.

    I'm very interested to hear everyone's thoughts/opinions/insight.

    AncientGamer aka Buster Budd
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    </a>AncientGamer aka BusterBudd
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:45 pm  
    Re: The Death of Living Greyhawk

    BusterBudd wrote:

    More information on Living Greyhawk's conclusion will become available in the next few weeks on the website.

    Gary Gygax will wake up and discover it was all just a dream. Shocked
    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Aug 19, 2007 8:40 pm  

    In another thread on the forums, Eric Mona said that he had very recent conversations on the subject of the GH license and that WotC showed absolutely no interest in putting on the market. I suspect that it'll be put out to pasture for good. Living Greyhawk shut down, the GHophiles at Paizo out of the loop, Castle Greyhawk gone from Oerth, GH no longer the 'core' world (hasn't been for a while, but especially won't be in 4th). Seems a pretty clear trend.

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:28 pm  

    The grapevine has it that WotC plans on releasing a campaign setting book every year. 2008 is FR, 2009 is Eberron. After that, plans are vague, but they've hinted that Greyhawk might get its turn.

    I wouldn't hold my breath, particularly because holding my breath until 2010 seems dangerous. But the chance is high enough that WotC employees have specifically mentioned it.
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Aug 20, 2007 4:00 am  

    LG was always going to have a cut off point. It was always a matter of when and not if (and it was always very likely that 4e would be that when).

    Reflecting on LG's legacy, it has to be said it's a mixed bag. But as someone who was involved heavily, no one's going to fall off their chair if I offer the opinion that on balance LG's legacy is a positive one.

    The negatives have been much chewed over here and many places elsewise. The not-always-joined-up thinking with regards to regional and core plots. The tendency for regional plots to be oversensational and Oerthshattering (how many regional rulers died in the last 6 years? I myself am responsible for one plus the destruction of a regional capital). The corrosive effect of the Splatbooks and general PCcentricism on regional development etcetcetc...

    The positives are that if anyone does ever pick up GH again as a going concern, the IP issues for most, if not all, of the LG material is such a minefield that no one in their right mind will ever touch it. It's legal plutonium. So those 7 years of LG canon will be exactly like Pam's dream in Dallas (which most folk on here should be more than old enough to remember; you young 'uns - go Google it). Laughing

    The other major positive is that LG got thousands of people to play in the World of Greyhawk for 7 years at a time when it would have got diddly squat exposure otherwise. That's a whole new generation of D&D players who wouldn't have known anything about Greyhawk aside from a few OOP PDFs and Rob Vest's Wiki (plug! plug!).

    We also got the LGG, which production values aside, was a pretty nifty summation of GH canon between one set of covers and a good entry level book for newbies. And the early PaizoHawk articles (before the Adventure Paths), which almost certainly wouldn't have seen press if they hadn't had the LG stamp on them.

    So LG was by no means perfect, but I think the World of Greyhawk would be a lot worse off without it.

    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:28 am  

    Well I'm including LG history in my campaign if I can actually work out what it is... My only regret is the death of Countess Bellissica. I rather liked her. Who else died? Skotti died and came back. Owen died and came back. Belissica died. Belissica's sucessor also died. Anyone else?
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 17, 2004
    Posts: 924
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    Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:46 pm  

    What has me worried is that that want to go out with a bang!!

    Hope they don't "Nuke" GH and leave behind nothing but nonsense and unrecognizable ash for the players that will continue playing in GH.

    PS. obviously all the "Living" players and triads will not move over to FR. so is there any way to create a fan based version of some kind?

    Even if it is only small groups of fans that want to continue to update there regions?
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Dec 30, 2002
    Posts: 147
    From: 1313 StoneCastle Way, Free City of Dyvers, W0G 13F

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    Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:21 pm  
    Generation Gap

    What frustrates me most is WotC's callous handling of it all (Greyhawk wise).
    Maybe its just me, but I feel a certain amount of a lack of respect for the 1st/2nd D&D generation gamers.

    Are they waiting for Gygax to enter Valhalla, before they re-introduce (if at all) Greyhawk again? so they don't have to worry about Royalties?

    This period, if significant enough, could cause a Generation gap in Greyhawk and loss of interest as its not "officially" supported, further give enough of a time gap for WotC to intro there "own" self percieved GH material (....yes, speculative, but not unforeseen).

    Leaving us hard cores to carry the Greyhawk banner. It just saddens me greatly to see game I adore and have grown up with, with Greyhawk being the one true testimate of its "core" world.... the first.

    Maybe I'm not articulating this properly, but because its of an older generation's appeal, its not the now and is... passe'? history.

    I'll try and remain skeptical about the direction WotC is going with all of this, but continuously I'm becoming dis-heartened and disappointed. Mad

    I feel like I'm apart of a "dying breed".... the last few of the Greyhawk Clan....slowly being sterialized. Sad


    AncientGamer aka BusterBudd

    I hope I'll find a good group of "older generation" gamers in London, UK.
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    </a>AncientGamer aka BusterBudd
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    Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:21 pm  

    I just got back from Gencon where one of the seminars I attended was the RPGA Members Meeting where they addressed the fate of Living Greyhawk.

    The attendees were NOT at all happy Living GH was being shelved. It helped not a bit when the Living Realms was announced as its replacement as the premier 4E "living" campaign. There was no enthusiasm, and more than a little hostility (some people shouted at the podium, a number got up and walked out etc.).

    One person asked why Living GH was shelved. The answer given was threefold -

    1) As 4E is not compatible with 3E, it is not possible to just continue Living GH. No reasonable conversion is possible between editions. So Living GH had to be concluded.

    2) As no conversion between 3E and 4E is possible, the living campaign must be restarted. Rather than start over again with GH, the decision was made to start fresh with the Realms, which as a fully supported setting has more bells and whistles that can be tied into the RPGA's Living Realms.

    3) The Realms was declared much more popular than GH. THis comment drew hoots of scorn from the assembly btw.

    Those were the reasons given. Andy Collins, one of the 4e honchos was present during all of this. Throughout the discussion of GH, he looked sour. When he was specifically offered the microphone to address the assembly protesting that GH and not the Realms should be the new living campaign, despite the above points, he pointedly refused the microphone. He did address other issues.

    It was pretty wild for an RPGA meeting, most of which are usually just Wotc love-ins. This was no love-in.
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:32 pm  
    Re: Generation Gap

    BusterBudd wrote:
    Are they waiting for Gygax to enter Valhalla, before they re-introduce (if at all) Greyhawk again? so they don't have to worry about Royalties?

    Just for the record, Gary settled with WOTC years ago. He no longer earns royalties on Greyhawk IP.
    Forum Moderator

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    Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:36 pm  

    I wish I could've been there for that meeting. Smile
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:56 pm  
    Re: Generation Gap

    BusterBudd wrote:
    I feel like I'm apart of a "dying breed".... the last few of the Greyhawk Clan....slowly being sterialized. Sad

    You're not alone, sirrah.

    I've been running my personal Greyhawk campaign since 1981. That's 26+ years and counting (although I'll admit to a few years hiatus now and then). "My" Greyhawk isn't strictly canon but it's as close as I can make it. One of the reasons I've stuck with the setting for so long was Gygax's well-rounded vision of a fully realized world.

    I've never liked any other setting. Realms. Eberron. Whatever. They're all second-best IMNSHO.

    I've been "hardcore" Greyhawk since before a lot of gamers were born and am proud to be a part of a "dying breed" no matter what any revenue-hungry slugs at companies like WotC might think. Unless I step in front of a bus tomorrow, I'm predicting I'll still be running my Greyhawk campaign for another 26+ years, long after companies like WotC have folded and disappeared into obscurity.

    Gee, could I have made my opinion clear enough? Happy
    Catapultem habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam. (Translation: I have a catapult. Give me all the money, or I will fling an enormous rock at your head.)
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    Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:54 am  

    Dredged from the depths:

    Very little was put out for Greyhawk in the late 1980s (everything was Dragonlance, IIRC), but the WOG obviously survived.
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