I've just finished reading through the Temple of Elemental Evil/Scourge of the Slave Lords/Queen of the Spiders adventure path, and I've been thinking of updating it to current rulesas my first forey into the wild world of DMing.
Now, upon review of the general plot, I'm having a bit of trouble linking the three parts togther. It spends most of the time being some kind of plot by The Eldar Elemental Eye for power, but then suddenly Lolth jumps in and grabs the finale.
What I guess happened was: The temple was reopened with backing from the Slave Lords in order to boost their power, and some factions amongst the Vault of the Drow were backing the Slave Lords, and said factions were also running the show with the giant problem in Sterich. By coincidence, Sterich is also the area where Lolth is planning Operation: Eat Oerth.
What I'm looking for are a few ideas for giving the adventure path a bit more flow. I'm certain I can manage the Temple-Slave Lords transaction, but at the end, I find the plot to get a bit jarring.
Did I miss someting? I didn't know those three adventures were even supposed to go together. Putting the three of them into a series is an interesting idea, though.
Was that your idea or has someone published something I don't know about?
Back when these megamodules first came out, T$R did kind of suggest running them as one long campaign, but really gave no linking material. The EEG was loosely alluded to, as was Eclavdra, as the link. Good modules, but not really much there to link them together. _________________ Greyhawk is dead; long live Greyahwk! It is not heresy; I will not recant!
I think by throwing the EEG in as a more important source could make these flow a little better. You could even say that the EEG, the Earth Dragon and Tharizdun are all one and the same (as MC sort of did with Return to ToEE). Through the MM IV we see that Tharizdun has elemental aspects, thanks to the avatars of elemental evil. You could even have a climactic end not with the Queen of the Demonweb, but go further and face the forces of Tharizdun! Myself, when I ran these the only linking material was the heroes themselves; their exploits got them fame and notoriety, and they went through the various adventures thanks to their dedication and expertise. _________________ Greyhawk is dead; long live Greyahwk! It is not heresy; I will not recant!
Oooooh, now I get it! Forgive me for occasionally being a moron. I was thinking about the original versions of those adventures, not the mega-modules produced later.
Yes, you're right. While the suggestion was there, no linking information was provided. I think the idea was simply to finish one, move to the next, then move to the next without tying them together in any way.
Concerning the Elder Elemental Gods - The Earth Dragon, Tharizdun, and the Elder Elemental Eye were all originally conceived as "primordial gods" from deep in Oerth's past. Several articles have been posted on this, though no specific titles spring to mind right now - no matter, since you're smart enough to do your own research. One of the early issues of Oerth Journal contains an interview of Gygax by Erik Mona that provides some explanation you might find valuable (Issue #1, maybe? I forget.).
There was linking information if you mean "how do I get from one storyline to the next". But there wasn't a foolish attempt to make it all "one big plotline".
The suggestion was that the PCs start at Hommlett as noobs and then deal with the temple of elemental evil. Then during one of the post success fetes that the now somewhat famous heroes are invited to, a slave raid takes place. The PCs are either captured or given reason to pursue the slavers and rescue those that were captured. As a result, they end up doing the Slave Lords adventures.
The Slave Lords are very loosely tied to Eclavdra in the form of Edralve, a drow on the Council. It does not lead the PCs directly from A4 to G1, however. Instead, they are expected to do some other adventures for a while. Then the PCs begin to be harassed and stalked by a slave lord survivor who has gotten aid from the Drow. This results in the PCs getting some clues that whomever is backing these avengers is in or near Sterich. So they go there and get entangled in the G series and are off to the races.
The problem of Q1 and the sudden assertion of Lolth is, quite simply, a result of Q1 not being written by the guy who wrote the G & D series. Gygax's plan for the finale of the storyline was to have a secret temple of the Elder Elemental God somewhere below the Fane and have the PCs deal with that. Apparently in his home campaign the players took one look at Erelhei-Cinlu and said "screw this", leaving the adventure incomplete.
Q1 does not make sense as a conclusion of the storyline. The PCs are just arbitrarily assigned a new task: "Oh, btw, since you are here why don't you go whack Lolth?" I've seen fan written attempts to rationalize this story flaw, some of which are pretty good. One suggestion is that Eclavdra learned of Lolth's plan to absorb Sterich into the Demonweb, so she got involved in the whole surface stuff just to screw with Lolth's plans. Another has Eclavdra always being a follower of Lolth secretly, just pretending to be for the EEG so she can draw out its followers. And she gets involved in all that surface stuff to gain more favor with Lolth at the expense of her rivals in the vault. Another suggestion was that Eclavdra's whole plan was to lure some powerful surfacers down to the Vault so she could manipulate them into assassinating her rivals in the Great Fane. Other rationalizations are doubtless possible.
There are some flaws in the idea of linking the whole series... mainly that characters that have completed T4 are probably kind of powerful for dealing with A1. But that can be massaged by the DM without too much problem, especially if you are converting the mods to a 3e adventure series.
One idea I had was the Eldar Elemental worshipers in the Vault of the Drow were using the Slavers and giants to increase their power so they could take over the Vault and do something Big and Evil. The Slavers were funding the Temple to increase their power (and thus, their backers).
When the PC's start doing their stuff, the plan quickly goes to pot, and Lolth, seeing what has been done by the Eldar Elemental's followers jumps in and takes over the plan for her own ends.
Oh course, this will require the keeping of Lolth as an ever present background threat, or some kind of sub-plot. Maybe she could be a minor anoyance at first, but just as the PC's think it's all over, she pulls the rug from under them and shows herself to be the real menace. I seam to recall that the Temple of Elemental Evil was originally formed as a cooperative project betwen the Eldar Elemental Eye, Lolth, Zuggtmoy and Luz the Old. Maybe I can indroduce her spidery grace with a few murials in the temple depths can go from there.
To this end I may re-order some events in the series. In the final section, perhaps I could have the giant attack come first, and then it's been dealt with, then the city eating orb of darkness can hit Istivin, and take the PC's with it!
That seams like a good explanation to me. I may wind up using something along those lines for the final plot. But I want to keep Lolth as the overall master manipulator who was pulling all the strings from the centre of her web.
That seams like a good explanation to me. I may wind up using something along those lines for the final plot. But I want to keep Lolth as the overall master manipulator who was pulling all the strings from the centre of her web.
Dude, seriously, just read p. 4 of the supermodule. I think it explains everything. I don't even understand what all the fuss is about. I mean, yeah, it was obviously a retcon to make the three supermodules fit together, but I don't find it inherently flawed.
I've had another go through the section in question, and it does tie up most of the threads nicely, but it still seams to me that the arrival of Lolth on the scene is still a bit 'tacked on'. I don't think I'll have to make any radical changes, but I will try and give the story a bit more flow.
On a different note, what year was this set in? I'm guessing 576 CY or something like that.
Obviously, it has to be for the supermodules to work. But T1 implies that it was prior to that module, since it specifically refers to Lolth's recent sharp check and limited influence in the background on Lareth the Beautiful.
Obviously Lareth doesn't make nearly as much sense if Lolth's just about to drop a huge bubble over Istivin and suck the whole plane into the Abyss. But that's a minor nuisance at best.
As for the schemes Retcon, yeah, I've read it. So what? Its part and parcel of the bubble over Istivin and other things added in the supermodule. It works as far as it goes. It just doesn't really flow with anything in the modules themselves and it puts a lot more information in the hands of the starting PCs than was the case in the original series.
On the other hand, it does make Eclavdra rather more likely to survive since the PCs never come to view her as the big bad guy, because Lolth is hanging over their heads from the get go.
Just as an aside, IMC the Istivin bubble had nothing to do with the GDQ series. It was an attempt by the mind flayers, using the avatar of Tharizdun trapped in the Lost Temple to try and make an area of permanent darkness on the surface...
We now resume your regular thread, already in progress...
_________________ Greyhawk is dead; long live Greyahwk! It is not heresy; I will not recant!
Lolth isn't "tacked on" to the series at all, for her minions have key roles in the The Temple of Elemental Evil, though not so much in Slavers.
***SLIGHT SPOILER ALERT!!! NOOBS LOOK AWAY!!!***
The actual holder of the golden skull, Falrinth, is a minion of Lolth, as is evidenced by the intricate shrine dedicated to Her that he has among his personal possessions.
The Lolth connection serves no greater purpose in the course of The Temple of Elemental Evil as it is, but it is there, and perhaps it did serve a purpose in EGG's own campaign(even if only as a red herring). Perhaps somebody else knows more about this.
The EEG appears along the way, and serves to nicely foreshadow conflict with Eclavdra's clan(the Eilservs, who worship the EEG) later on. Lareth is the first minion of the Elder Elemental God that is encountered, and that is right at the beginning of things. The "eye of fire" symbol he sports on his surcoat was supposed to be the inverted "Y" within a triangle symbol of the EEG, but the artist did their own thing in the end apparently. It looks cool anyways, and can still be linked to the EEG's eye that appears within the altars in temples dedicated to it.
Overall, the three super modules fit together well enough, and with only a bit of added material in between you can link the orignal(separate) modules however you want to. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Yes, I'm starting to get a feel of how everything might fit togther. I kinda want to put a bit of plane hopping to bridge betwen the Slavers and the Giants, mainly to impress on the players that events are bigger than they first appeared.
Hmm. Where can I get some info on Sigil?
Also, I'll think I may put a opening chapter in Verbobonc to get the PC's used to each other before I throw Hommlet and Nulb at them.
The major 2e sources (all available in PDF from Paizo or RPGNow) are In the Cage: A Guide to Sigil, Uncaged: Faces of Sigil (the best book of NPCs ever), The Factol's Manifesto, and Faction War. The best 3e source is Expedition to the Demonweb Pits.
For free sources, download Chapter 7 of the Planewalker releases, and Brix's Guide to Sigil. There are other web resources (there's a great map here, for example) but that'll get you started.
Yes, its possible to work things out. I just don't think that the actual modules do that in any way. There is a Lolth faction (btw, ToEE was originally after GDQ until the supermodules) in the Temple. Yes, the Earth Dragon is an aspect of the EEG. Yes, you can work out a convoluted scheme whereby Lolth and Eclavdra are stepping on each other's toes constantly.
But none of these things are more than hinted at.. if even that.. in the modules themselves. And that's because they weren't linked when written and because Q1 is nothing like the ending Gygax intended for the D series (he says he never wrote his ending.. which involved the EEG... because his players turned tail and ran rather than confront the Vault.
I think the supermodules were a good idea. I even think linking them together like that was a good idea. I also think that they dropped the ball on it by including nothing more than some minor bridging events rather than detailed suggestions on how to play if you do intend to run them sequentially.
Lolth isn't tacked on, but the Q series finale is... even before the supermodules. Its less 'from deep left field' in the supermodule, but not by a whole lot. I also have some reservations about the supermodule's idea that Lolth can just open a portal that'll suck Oerth through it and none of the supernatural bigwigs seem to notice or care..
I've been doing some think about how to organise this, and I suddenly hit upon what could link all the disperate parts of these adventures togther.
In the lowest levels of the Temple of Elemental Evil, the arcanists who re-opened to have been working on a doomsday weapon for Tharizdun, The Shadow Globe. Eventually During the adventuring it gets stolen by Lolth, who warps it into serviving her own purposes, and uses it to create the Istvan shadow dome. The giant attacks would be the last ditch attempt by the Elder Elemental cultist to salvage their plan.
I've also chosen to devide to adventure path into chapters for easy planning. I'll post the outlines of these as soon as I hammer down the contents.
Part I: The Redcap Murders
An intro session set in Verbobonc, mainly to get a party togther. A series of fungus related deaths have the city in a state of near panic, and the heroes have to get to the bottom of things! Cue breaking into an Asylum and the discovery of a lost temple of Zuggtmoy.
Part II: The Spread of Chaos
Following clues from the last session, the heroes trace the corruption to Hommlet, a seamingly idillic village. After encounters with the 'advance guard' of the expanding evil, the heroes race to Nulb, which has all but succumbed to evil and chaos for a showdown with a demon cult.
Part III: Assault on The Temple of Elemental Evil
Time to take to battle to the source! Four floors of old school dungeon crawling goodness! Plus rival element factions, an imprisoned celestial, tricky demon worshipers and a certain demon queen of fungi. Which pales in comparison when you see what's been made in lowest level.
Part IV: The Battle of Safeton
Suddenly finding themselves with a fully functioning doomsday weapon in their possession, the PC suddenly need to find out how on Oerth to destroy it. The famed Alchemist of Safeton might be a good place to start looking for answers. But just as it looks like things are about to calm down, it appears that the heroes arn't the only ones with an intrest in the weapon. Here come The Slavers!
Part V: Wolves of Highport
Pirates, necromancers and werewolves, oh my! On the trail of their friends and the weapon, the heroes have to contend with Highport's devious inhabitants, some of which are less human than they first appear. A raid on a Slaver complex below an abandoned temple should provide some answered, but it appears that the heroes are not the only ones after the weapon: Who is Edralve and what is she planning?
Part VI: Breaking the Chains
After locating the Slaver's base the PC's have to infiltrate it and recapture the weapon before it is accidently (or deliberatly) activated. Easier said than done, considering all the monsters ready and able to tear them limb from limb. And that's just the slavers! And they've been messing with forces better left alone, so prepare for an explosive finalé.
Part VII: Pulling in the Web
Edralve has the weapon, Lolth's unleashed her agents to capture it, and the heroes are lost amongst the planes! Edralve is offering to sell the weapon to the highest bidder, and power groups from across the planes are showering her with offers. The PC's will have to out-wit, out-fight and out-bid them all to save Oerth!
Part VIII: Darkness over Sterich
The weapon has been activated, and the city of Sterich is ground zero for the apocalypse! The heroes have to find a flaw in the magical darkness that is expanding out of the city, and all the while dodging Drow fanatics and demonic assassins. Oh, and there's the invasion of giants that's pouring out the hills to deal with as well.
Part IX: Against the Giants
The vanguard of the invasion may have been delt with, but there are more giants coming for Sterich. But with the weapon gone, why is the Cult of the Elder Elemental Eye still after it? And for that matter, just what the heck is the Elder Elemental Eye anyway? It seams like the Abyss is about swallow the world whole, and what can be worse that demonic invasion? How about a deal with the Devil?
Part X: Expedition to the Underdark
There is no choice but to take the fight to both Lolth's followers and the last remains of the Cult of the Elder Elemental Eye at the same time. Tracking the command lines back underneith the ground the heroes will have little time to adapt to the new envioment before they find themselves knee deep in peril in the form of vampires, prophecy and a Kuo-Toan civil war.
Part XI: The Vault of the Drow
Erelhei-Cinlu. Quite possibly the worst place on Oerth. But the heroes need an entrance to the Demonweb Pits, and the only one they know of is in this city of evil. Enemies will be legion, allies will be just a vile as the foes and death could come at any second, and all this so they can arrive somewhere even worse: The realm of Lolth herself.
Part XII: Queen of the Spiders
The final battle! The Heroes must battle not only through the Demonweb pits but also through other worlds that Lolth had enslaved: Maldev, The Black Fen and The Kingdom of Caer Sidi will all have to be braved before the heroes can confront Lolth herself, it a conflict which will decide the entire fate of Oerth!
Whew! Big post. Thats the basic out line of the Adventure Path. Now I have to actually write it!
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I seam to recall that the Temple of Elemental Evil was originally formed as a cooperative project betwen the Eldar Elemental Eye, Lolth, Zuggtmoy and Luz the Old. Maybe I can indroduce her spidery grace with a few murials in the temple depths can go from there.
