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WOTC 4th Edition Forums, Saving Throws and Blogs
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EileenProphetofIstus
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:16 am    Post subject: WOTC 4th Edition Forums, Saving Throws and Blogs Reply with quote

I just spent some time on the WOTC site trying to glean new information. I decided to gravitate to the Realms and see what their reactions were. It seemed that many (the majority) felt like they were falling to the wayside by being changed and seeing themselves as the new Greyhawk. No put downs on Greyhawk that I read but rather that they felt like they were getting the same type of treatment as we have dealt with in the past.

Then I read about saving throws in another section and this lead me to blogs. I knew they were going to changed the saving throw concept a lot but not how. After reading forums it was still unclear though I got the impression saving throws as we know it are gone. If I understood things correctly, individual players do not roll saving throws against spells. I have no idea about other things such as poison, or breath weapons, but it was definently different.

I wasn't able to grasp the concept well because I was reading forum entries. Does anyone else have any information on Saving Throw changes.

So I went to the blogs of the game designers. I wasn't able to read a lot of it because it was way to much.....But they sure said a lot of nothing. What I did learn is what they ate for breakfast, driving to work, gaming sessions, and so on . When it came to actual 4th edition concrete information....nothing. Just tidbits.

Anyway, has anyone else been reading these....what was your take on them?
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DavidBedlam
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been getting my 4.0 infomation from ENWorld. What's great about it is that if filtered out the junk from the blogs and articles and gives you a nice lump of concentrated infomation. There is a compiled info page here.

Couldn't find anything on saves though. Sad
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bubbagump
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're definitely right about the ambiguity there, Eileen. Even ENWorld's condensation of the info says very little. WotC's approach here reminds me of a deal my company was working on a while back:

We proposed to several other companies that we could provide a certain type and quantity of land for a particular price. I and my guys refused to go into detail about the proposal, only making vague suggestions that fell short of a promise but led them to believe that we had the land and were willing to let it go for a good price.

What's the kicker? We didn't own the land yet. I'd found it and had an offer on the table, but no contract had been signed and no money had changed hands. I was trying to sell something that I didn't even own.

Now, before you start thinking we were being dishonest, let me tell you that this kind of dealing is standard practice - it happens all the time and it's not seen as anything underhanded. My company did indeed purchase the land and then sold it to one of the companies we'd approached.

How does this remind me of WotC's strategy with 4e? Frankly, I don't think they have much of anything on paper yet. I'm beginning to suspect that all they have is some marketing concepts, some art, and a stack of ideas floating around. When they made the announcement at GenCon I don't think they had even that much. I'm betting that the announcement was done in that way to elicit a strong response that they could use to garner a large amount of information in a short time - it was a concentrated form of data mining. Other than some market research and some pet concepts, I think they didn't really even start writing 4e in earnest until after that announcement.

In short, I suspect they're not telling us much because there's not much to tell yet.

But that's just my opinion.
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EileenProphetofIstus
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting thought. I did get the impression from the blogs that they had been reading the forum quite a bit and were rather surprised at the negativity of their 4th edition project.

This is something that really bugs me about WOTC.....they assume what they think is the only way to go. If they feel 4th edition is necessary, then so must we the players. The other thing that really gets me is that they act like 3.5 is "well just an OK system, not a great system". Personally I think it is just ok, not the greatest by any means, but when 3rd edition came out they said the exact same things they are saying about 4th edition.

"We are producing the best possible roleplaying experience one can offer." This is not an actual quote but basically a shortened version of all the "buy it for it is the greatest thing you have ever seen talk they gave us". They almost come down on their current edition, like it really wasn't that good at all.....But I thought they tried so hard...at least that's what they said at the time. So much for supporting their hard work over the past 7 years. And then they act like 7 years is a long time.

Now I realize they will say whatever they need to in order to "sell' more.
It's just so interesting how they can print 50+ books and then dump it in a heart beat. Again, so much for supporting your product.

Maybe they didn't do their best job like they claimed back in 2000.
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bubbagump
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I noticed an interesting dynamic when I was in the computer field years ago: every computer tech I spoke to would tell me that any other given tech was an idiot. Each tech thought he was smarter than the others, and there was never one tech that everyone thought was brilliant. I wonder if the same thing isn't happening among the 4e design team. Since they didn't design 3.5e, and since they would have done it differently, they think it's crap. I'm betting that if you ask Monte Cook, et al, that they might say the same thing about 4e when it's all said and done.

I think you also hit the nail on the head when you discussed (in another thread) the generation gap that currently exists between WotC's current designers and most of us on these boards. The same gap exists between the 4e team and the 3e team. Interesting, no?
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EileenProphetofIstus
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting? Yes! Accurate.....quite possibly. The 3rd edition design team (I'm guessing was a half a generation behind us for the most part.) I met Monte Cook and his age suprised me, younger fellow. Now I'm guessing the next group of folks WOTC employees are about the same age level as what the 3rd edition team was then, placing us about 20 years difference between the older and current generation of writers.

Naturally everyone has different ideas of what is good and bad. There are no criticisms of writing skill or age in this post. New people, different ideas, younger people different ideas.

I also think your right about what the 3rd editon team would feel. Some good, some bad, either way it stings to see someone else flush your hard work down the toilet. The same can be said for Gary Gygax when 2nd and 3rd edition came out. I'm sure that it stung quite a bit (I read an interview he had done after 3rd edition and he was polite yet quite frank about how he felt about 3rd edition, holding back when he really wanted to go off.) I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
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Ragr
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I find a little bit cheeky is releasing a hardback 3.5 rules compendium at more or less the same time as announcing a new edition.
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EileenProphetofIstus
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That apparently was their farwell to 3.5 from what I have read. I have zero hopes for this book.

I haven't seen the Examplers of Evil yet either but was really disapointed that they couldn't take the time to redo classic villains giving them the awesome evilness they deserved. They mention such individuals in their webstite post like Iggwilv, Acererak, etc. but then go on to say they were only ok villains, not great ones. I wish they would have made them great ones rather than all new ones. It is going to take 10+ years for these new ones to develop the reputation of awesome villains, not because they aren't good but because it takes time to create reputations within the gaming community.

Unearthed Arcana, like the Compedium of Rules had author opinions and input which I really thought was a waste of space and very arrogant on their part. I will review the COR book but I fully expect that it is one of the few I will pass on for the overall collection. Other books which did nothing for me include Ghostwalk, Magic Incarnum, Tome of Magic, Nine Swords. If anyone could do a review on these books I'd appreciate it. Also on the lame list were Unearthed Arcana, Savage Species, Psionics, and Epic Level Handbook. I could have done without these as well.

After that....well it would be quicker to say which ones I liked.
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DavidBedlam
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Examplers of Evil is pretty to look at, but when I had a flick through a copy I spied in a store I was in, I got the impression that it was a bit light on serious content.

There was a chapter on making better arch-villians, and on such things as lairs and monions, but then the rest of the book is dedicated to pre-generated villians. Some of them did seam rather interesting, like the incestuous Tolstoff twins, but others seamed a bit bland.

If I see a copy in a bargin bin in a few months, I may grab it. Otherwise I'ld leave it on the shelf.
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MikelAmroni
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:24 am    Post subject: Saving Throws Reply with quote

As far as saving throws go, in Star Wars Saga (which is more or less a beta version of 4E rules), saves are generally the same, except that base Reflex counts towards defense. Basically they took the D20 modern concept of a class defense bonus and simplified it to be based on the Reflex save. Its actually rather elegant, as far as Saga itself is concerned. Until we see the bare bones basics of actual rules, we can't say much more than that I suppose.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
There are no criticisms of writing skill or age in this post.


Well, I definitely wouldn't criticize their skill when it comes to being able to produce books, etc. I'm sure they all have a remarkably good grasp of the English language. From what I've seen they also seem to have a remarkable grasp of corporate conformity.

Mind you, I'm not making any judgments here since I don't personally know many of WotC's current crop of designers. However, I do know enough to recognize the fact that there aren't many rebels in the bunch. Remember the photos from the old 1e days? TSR back then was full of individuals with long hair, beards, etc., and tons of inventiveness. The creativity scale in those days was through the roof. I just don't see that degree of creativity in this new bunch. It feels to me that the fire of true ingenuity has been replaced by the postmodern passion for productivity over principle.

But then, I could be wrong...
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

P.S. Nice alliteration in that last line, eh? Do I get extra points for that?
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EileenProphetofIstus
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nah....your not wrong. Creativity went out the door and I think to some degree they are trying to recapture that by changing all of their fluff, such as backdrops for demons, deties, devils, elves (oh I forgot what was next alphabetically, the list is getting awfully long).

Of coarse the board meetings ran short and they forgot to discuss the idea of continuality for D&D from one edition to the next, from one generation of gamers to the next, from one book to the next.

Here's a rebel thought for them.....rather than dividing the D&D community how about designing a D&D game that brings it back to its roots and brings players together......Oh, on second thought it is probably a bad idea....
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bubbagump
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, that would require far too much effort. And besides, we're "customers" now, not a "community". Honestly, community is such an old-fashioned way to look at it.

<wipes off the dripping sarcasm>

Yes, I truly do believe we're witnessing the beginning of the end of an era here. No longer will the D&D community be a bunch of off-the-wall folks who would love nothing better than to explore ideas and play together. Soon it will be nothing more than a bunch of teens hunched over computers mindlessly playing video games.
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GVDammerung
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bubbagump wrote:
Yes, that would require far too much effort. And besides, we're "customers" now, not a "community". Honestly, community is such an old-fashioned way to look at it.

<wipes off the dripping sarcasm>

Yes, I truly do believe we're witnessing the beginning of the end of an era here. No longer will the D&D community be a bunch of off-the-wall folks who would love nothing better than to explore ideas and play together. Soon it will be nothing more than a bunch of teens hunched over computers mindlessly playing video games.


I regretfully see the truth in this trend. My thought is, however, that D&D will fail as an electronic property when put up against the likes of WoW, Halo, Scrolls etc. Compared to companies who do it for a living, Wotc and D&D seem amateurish to me. So, it will be loose (paper and pencil) and loose again (electronic) for D&D, at least until Wotc gets thwaped over the head with their failures by Hasbro come looking for the rent.
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EileenProphetofIstus
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I first started posting on Canonfire before the announcement of 4th edition I made a prediction about the forthcoming edition because of changes I had seen in what kind of products WOTC were producing (such as the increase in modules, running out of ideas are we) and I also made reference to computer's becoming far more relavant to the game.

I should know, Istus told me.
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Telas
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WARNING: Unpopular opinions may follow.

I believe we're not getting any firm details because WotC is still changing the ruleset as they go along. One of the podcasters mentioned that he pulled out a character sheet from about nine months before 3.0 was released, and it was a split-class Fighter/Magic-User. In other words, he was basically playing a gestalt character, and the title "Wizard" had not been adopted. With today's e-documents, instant communications, and versioning procedures, I'm sure they can make greater changes in shorter amounts of time.

If WotC did give us hard rules, we'd bitch and whine about how they'll break the game or ruin everything, without ever seeing them in their entirety. I don't like being kept in the dark, but frankly I don't believe that's a great way to develop a product.

Gaming has changes significantly in the last five years. The Indie movement had come (and some say, gone). New ideas and theories have risen (and some have fallen). A new generation of gamers has come and left their mark, or at least tried to. And a lot of older gamers have returned to the fold.

Sorry, but this next bit may not be terribly popular... When I first signed up on Canonfire, I seemed to be in the minority in that I was playing 3rd edition D&D. Suddenly, there's much wailing and gnashing of teeth that 3.x is going to be replaced. Excuse the raised eyebrow - it's entirely involuntary.

So, I'm going to keep playing 3.5. I'm going to keep playing Greyhawk. I'm going to keep up on the rumors, and will definitely try out 4th edition. If I like it, I'll adopt it, and change it up like I did 3.5. And I'll drive on.

What I'm not going to do: Presume the worst of WotC. Assume that change is bad. Guess as to what 4th ed holds. Cast dispersions on the motives of the game designers.

Again, this may not be the most popular opinion on this site. I'm sorry that I don't agree with many of you, especially those whose opinions and knowledge I value. But I don't like the negative assumptions and rumor-based griping that I'm seeing.

Telas
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with most of your points, Telas. The guts of the 4e game are being kept from us as you state; that makes sense on the part of Wotc.

I think most folks will look at 4e when it emerges, take what they like and leave the rest.

Where I would respectfully disagree with you is that I don't see anyone presuming or assuming anything. The vast majority of the criticism posted here has been in response to Wotc's past record as a company, or reacting to pieces of information about 4e released by them. Neither is this griping about rumours if it's coming from an "official posting".

I see no reason to cease moaning about stuff that you don't like the look of, after all it's damn good fun reading opinion pieces, and Wotc are certainly not shy about stating theirs.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mechanics aren't really an issue, at least with me. We don't know much about them and they will probably be reasonable workable given past track records.

What is an issue is the mindset that the designers have explicitly laid out in their posts, particularly on issues of fluff. I don't think changing long time background material for the sake of changing it is useful. And I don't think simplifying everything down to its "core" combat functionality is all that useful either. D&D already suits itself for hack and slash play, it doesn't really need any further help in that regards.

Ditching the cosmology because "you can't adventure there"...or, more accurately, the designers apparently can't think of cool adventures to set there... is pretty lame. I guess dropping gnomes for tieflings is reasonable given their relative popularity, but then it results in a comment like "so we needed to think of what sort of world background would justify lots of tieflings in it". The same thing with the religion, which apparently with be a mishmash of fantasy and mythological gods? Ugh...
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:12 am    Post subject: Re: WOTC 4th Edition Forums, Saving Throws and Blogs Reply with quote

EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
Then I read about saving throws in another section and this lead me to blogs. I knew they were going to changed the saving throw concept a lot but not how. After reading forums it was still unclear though I got the impression saving throws as we know it are gone. If I understood things correctly, individual players do not roll saving throws against spells. I have no idea about other things such as poison, or breath weapons, but it was definently different.

I wasn't able to grasp the concept well because I was reading forum entries. Does anyone else have any information on Saving Throw changes.


Eileen, you've probably seen this already but the newest Design & Development article at Wotc - http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20071005 - discussing the core mechanic seems to be addressing this. From the description in the article they seem to be making Fortitude, Reflex, and Will "passive" like AC is. In other words something to be rolled against by the attacker rather than rolled for by the defender, so yeah it does kind of eliminate savings throws.

It makes sense to me at first hearing though I'll reserve judgment until I hear more about it. Seeing that the design team is willing to think outside the box and go against tradition in the redesign of the mechanic is encouraging to me although I'm sure plenty of people will hate anything that does that.
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Telas
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "passive save" is pretty much the same as the "players roll all the dice" option in Unearthed Arcana. Unless I'm missing something...

the best source I've seen for 4E info is the ENWorld page here:
http://www.enworld.org/index.php?page=4e

Telas
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's the first Design & Development article that I liked. And no coincidence that it's about mechanics rather than background.

Thanks for the link to ENworld, Telas. There's a hell of a lot of interesting speculation going on there.
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Telas
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A 4E Stat Block, from the D&D Game Day mini:

SPINED DEVIL
Medium Immortal Humanoid (Devil)
LEVEL 6 SKIRMISHER

INIT +5 SPD 5 FLY 7
Senses: nethersight. Perception +5
Resist fire 20
Attacks: Melee 2 claws +9 vs AC each: 2d4+4
Spine Rain Standard; ranged 10; +9 Dex vs. Ref; 1d6+2 + 2d6 fire AND
Poisoned 5, Slowed while Poisoned
SKILLS: Spot +10

AC 20
FORT 18
REF 18
WILL 18
HP/Bloodied 47/23

Str +7 (19) Con +5 (14) Dex +5 (15) Int +5 (15) Wis +5 (14) Cha +5 (15)

----------

Speed seems to be measured in squares, not feet.

Stat modifiers include half the monster's level as an additional
modifier. A similar mechanic shows up in Saga's skill checks, which is also similar to the C&C SIEGE mechanic. I'm not sure what the stat/skill relationship is.

Bloodied appears to be half HP. I'm not sure if Bloodied triggers contingencies, penalties, benefits, or a combination. It does look like a bit of "damage track" mechanic as well as "standard" hit points.

I think this stat block explains how they're merging saving throws and AC. Basically, each attack has to overcome some number, whether it's Armor Class, Fortitude, Reflexes, or Willpower. I really like this idea.

I notice they are moving towards True20's "stat is modifier" approach, although the "plus half level" makes it awkward.

Thoughts?

Telas
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EileenProphetofIstus
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting Stat block. Do we know if it is complete? You mentioned D&D Game Day Mini, so is this what appears on the mini card?

By the way....why do we have to be so lazy and call them mini's......I thought they were miniatures....Sigh!!!! I hate that term.

Even though we don't know enough about the rules and therefore stats....the seemingly simplistic stats made it feel really dumbed down. I showed the kids here today......Little Eileen is running a game for her friends.....they thought the same thing, probably mechanically better in most ways...but felt dumbed down.

Thoughts anyone.....
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a short leap between simplified and simple. For me, simplified is good; I like the Ac approach to saving throws and may well adopt this in my 3.5 game-there's nothing more irritating than a fireball going off in the midst of 5 bad guys with different saves. 5 rolls into 1 works for me.
I'm guessing, but I presume that "poisoned 5" means roll a d20 add 5 and compare with the victims Fort AC.

Simple I'm not so keen on; If I want a dose of simple I'll dig out my old Tunnels & Trolls stuff. I notice only 1 skill listed in the stat block and no feats whatsoever. Does this mean the end of feats? That would be a shame because many of them really individualise characters when used properly. Granted, for a busy DM some of them can also be a pain to remember to use in the heat of the moment. I'll miss them, though.

Not keen on movement in squares but that's easily changed and my gut reaction to half your level added to stats is negative also.

A mixed bag, then. The good thing is there are at least a few things which can be ripped into my game. Looking forward to seeing more and hearing the thoughts of others.
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