Signup
Welcome to... Canonfire! World of GreyhawK
Features
Postcards from the Flanaess
Adventures
in Greyhawk
Cities of
Oerth
Deadly
Denizens
Jason Zavoda Presents
The Gord Novels
Greyhawk Wiki
#greytalk
JOIN THE CHAT
ON DISCORD
    Canonfire :: View topic - Why couldn't the Gods kill Tharizdun...?
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    Why couldn't the Gods kill Tharizdun...?
    Author Message
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Dec 14, 2007
    Posts: 32


    Send private message
    Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:17 pm  
    Why couldn't the Gods kill Tharizdun...?

    I'm looking at the stats for Tharizdun given in Dragon Magazine (the article that also stats out Rao, Pholtus, and Iuz), and I can't see any obvious reason why the other Deities of Oerth had to imprison him rather than killing him outright. The only thing I could think of offhand is that 1) Tharizdun has some kind of Artifact hidden away that would bring him back if killed, like a lich's phylactery, or 2) Tharizdun has a fail-safe doomsday spell or device that will destroy everthing if he is killed (thus his imprisonment). But this begs the question of why he didn't just use it when he had the chance... maybe he wasn't sure it would completely destroy everything?
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 28, 2007
    Posts: 725
    From: Montevideo, Minnesota, US

    Send private message
    Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:55 pm  
    Re: Why couldn't the Gods kill Tharizdun...?

    AnimeFan wrote:
    I'm looking at the stats for Tharizdun given in Dragon Magazine (the article that also stats out Rao, Pholtus, and Iuz), and I can't see any obvious reason why the other Deities of Oerth had to imprison him rather than killing him outright. The only thing I could think of offhand is that 1) Tharizdun has some kind of Artifact hidden away that would bring him back if killed, like a lich's phylactery, or 2) Tharizdun has a fail-safe doomsday spell or device that will destroy everthing if he is killed (thus his imprisonment). But this begs the question of why he didn't just use it when he had the chance... maybe he wasn't sure it would completely destroy everything?


    The entire story of how Tharizdun was imprisoned is sketchy at best. From various Greyhawk sources, it is my understanding that he possessed enough power to destroy not only Oerth,but litterally and universe, and such was his intention. Had he not been imprisoned, he appartently would have succeeded. It took a collective effort of the gods to imprison him. I recall some references stating that it was "some" gods, while others sate it was "all" the gods working together. In either case, it seems to me that Tharizdun by power alone was more powerful than any of the other gods. I have never recalled a mention of an artifact in use by him. Apparently, Tharizdun himself had enough power to get the job done had he not been opposed, and even then, the best they could do was imprison him.

    My recommendation is to create your own tale of what happened, perhaps using the bits and pieces as inserts into your version.

    The issues you are referring to started in the 60's and went on into the 90's. Tharizdun never had stats printed. I can suggest these issues for research however. References were taken from

    http://www.cmc.net/~rtaylor/greyhawk/dragon_index.html

    Dragon #64, p.13
    Greyhawk's World: Redefining Deities of the Flanaess, by Gary Gygax
    Details on Raxivort, the god of xvarts, and some changes for the Deities and Demigods cyclopedia when used with the Greyhawk setting

    Dragon #67, p.23
    The Deities and Demigods of the World of Greyhawk, by Gary Gygax
    Heironeous, Hextor, Iuz, and Saint Cuthbert

    Dragon #68, p.63
    The Deities and Demigods of the World of Greyhawk (II), by Gary Gygax
    Celestion, Fharlanghn, Ehlonna, Pholtus, and Tritherion

    Dragon #69, p.27
    The Deities and Demigods of the World of Greyhawk (III), by Gary Gygax
    Istus, Time Elementals and Obad-Hai

    Dragon #70, p.20
    The Deities and Demigods of the World of Greyhawk (IV), by Gary Gygax
    Boccob, Zagyg and Olidammara

    Dragon #71, p.19
    Greyhawk's World: Quasi-deities, by Gary Gygax
    Heward, Keoghtom, Murlynd and Kelanen are described, along with general notes on quasi- and hero- deities

    Dragon #71, p.52
    Deities and Demigods of the World of Greyhawk (V), by Gary Gygax
    Erythnul, Incabulos, Nerull, Ralishaz and Wastri


    Dragon #85, p.12
    Special skills, special thrills, by Roger E. Moore
    Notes on special powers for clerics, including those of the Greyhawk and nonhuman gods

    Dragon #86, p.30
    Presenting the Suel Pantheon, by Lenard Lafofka
    Lendor and Norebo

    Dragon #87, p.23, by Lenard Lafofka
    Gods of the Suel Pantheon
    Kord and Phaulkon

    Dragon #88, p.8
    Gods of the suel Pantheon (II), by Lenard Lafofka
    Syrul, Fortubo and Wee Jas

    Dragon #89, p.20
    Gods of the Suel Pantheon (III), by Lenard Lafofka
    Pyremius, Beltar and Llerg

    Dragon #90, p.24
    Gods of the Suel Pantheon (IV), by Lenard Lafofka
    Phyton, Xerbo and Osprem

    Dragon #92, p.6
    From the Sorceror's Scroll: Clerics live by other rules, by Gary Gygax
    Examples of special sects of the priests and druids of Ehlonna

    Dragon #92, p.22
    Gods of the Suel Pantheon (V), by Lenard Lafofka
    Lydia, Bralm and Jascar
    _________________
    Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
    Posts: 170
    From: Second Primordial Ooze on the Left

    Send private message
    Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:14 pm  

    I have my own novel theories about Tharizdun. You can read about it in my "Life, the Multiverse, and Everything" page at http://melkot.com/mysteries/multiverse.html
    As a tease, I'll just say that Tharizdun is actually an extremely ancient lawful good god of light, order, and self-sacrifice. ;-) Bwaahahahahaa!!!

    Denis, aka "Maldin"
    Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3821
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:47 pm  

    The immortal essence is unkillable, but it can be imprisoned.
    _________________
    - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 05, 2004
    Posts: 666


    Send private message
    Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:39 am  

    There are lots of reasons. Perhaps they couldn't, because he was just too powerful. There is nothing saying that the gods known in the Flanaess today are the first ones in the world. Perhaps Tharizdun is a survivor of a previous order of gods, much like how the Olympian deities replaced the Titans and imprisoned them.

    Perhaps they don't want to, because Tharizdun is less bad than what would replace him if he were destroyed completely. Tharizdun might be a cross breed god with mixed Far Realms and Oerth heritage and if he's gone, his place would be taken by pure creatures of the Far Realms.

    Perhaps they could destroy him, but don't want to. There aren't many tales of gods actually killing each other (Ranet's death is about the only one I'm familiar with. And in that case, the god who killed her got her portfolio. So maybe killing him was possible, but it would just mean one of the gods that killed him would gain his power. Which would defeat the whole purpose of the exercise.

    Perhaps destroying Tharizdun would be like destroying a fundamental element of the universe and creation would be undone, which no one wants. Tharizdun might be necessary in some fashion. IF they destroy him, his powers of chaos and decay would stop working in the world and things would be fubared.

    There are lots and lots of reasons you could envision for why a god might not be slain by other gods.
    CF Admin

    Joined: Jan 09, 2004
    Posts: 404
    From: Stansbury Park, Utah

    Send private message
    Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:01 pm  
    No Stats

    Vormaerin wrote:
    Perhaps destroying Tharizdun would be like destroying a fundamental element of the universe and creation would be undone, which no one wants. Tharizdun might be necessary in some fashion. IF they destroy him, his powers of chaos and decay would stop working in the world and things would be fubared.

    I think that is a terrific theory, and I like the idea a lot. I think it is intriguing to imagine that Tharizdun is intimately connected to all matter and all of the elements that constitute the cosmos and all things in them. While Tharizdun may have certainly been powerful, his true might, and the promise of his eternal existence, is his connection and relationship to all things physical. He cannot be separated from the elements that have spun out from creation and give form to all of its myriad bodies. If he were killed or destroyed, it could mean the unraveling of creation. Undoing him may stop the endless cycle of birth, a slow decay, and death.

    Just random thoughts, ignore me. I just like Vormaerin's idea.

    Don (Greyson)
    Nyrond Triad
    Forum Moderator

    Joined: Feb 26, 2004
    Posts: 2586
    From: Ullinois

    Send private message
    Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:32 pm  

    Stating up Tharizdun in Dragon was a heinous mistake IMO. For one he is a greater god in the 83 guide but in that issue I believe he was knocked down a notch. Also, anytime stats are given for deities I think they should be for avatars and never their true essences. In fact, some sources will say greater gods can have multiple avatars running at the same time, so you would have to beat Big T on many fronts to truly suppress him physically.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 17, 2004
    Posts: 924
    From: Computer Desk

    Send private message
    Sat Jan 26, 2008 2:25 pm  

    I don't like stats for deities at all - quite frankly if any PCs are running around killing deities; your game is completely over powered. Once players have stats; you know someone is pouring over the books finding a way to kill the deity.

    I don't even like powerful characters all that much - I enjoy the lower levels much more then the higher ones.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 28, 2007
    Posts: 725
    From: Montevideo, Minnesota, US

    Send private message
    Sat Jan 26, 2008 2:55 pm  

    mortellan wrote:
    Stating up Tharizdun in Dragon was a heinous mistake IMO. For one he is a greater god in the 83 guide but in that issue I believe he was knocked down a notch. Also, anytime stats are given for deities I think they should be for avatars and never their true essences. In fact, some sources will say greater gods can have multiple avatars running at the same time, so you would have to beat Big T on many fronts to truly suppress him physically.


    I don't recall stats for Tharizdun in Dragon or any other source. If there are stats, can we be directed as to where they would be. I'm not interested in using the stats but I do want to know why my memory is failing me....
    _________________
    Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 16, 2003
    Posts: 192
    From: Calgary, AB, Canada

    Send private message
    Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:35 pm  

    EileenProphetofIstus wrote:

    I don't recall stats for Tharizdun in Dragon or any other source. If there are stats, can we be directed as to where they would be. I'm not interested in using the stats but I do want to know why my memory is failing me....


    Dragon #294... Stats for Iuz, Tharizdun, Pholtus and Rao.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3287
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Sat Jan 26, 2008 5:38 pm  

    Tharizdun was first reclassified as an intermediate deity in From the Ashes.

    Remember that Tharizdun was badly weakened by his imprisonment (or by the war that resulted in his imprisonment). He was much more powerful before. The imprisoned Tharizdun is only a fragment of the original god (see the 1st edition Manual of the Planes, A Guide to the Ethereal Plane, or Gary Gygax's novel Come Endless Darkness for confirmation).

    Tharizdun was originally a greater deity or something even stronger, or he was a brilliant tactician able to intimidate more powerful opponents with allies, weapons, or terrain that gave him an advantage. The evidence points toward him having great personal power, however.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 30, 2007
    Posts: 161
    From: Yorkshire, Britain

    Send private message
    Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:07 am  

    Maybe they didn't kill Tharizdun because they didn't want it known that deiticide was possible. They were woried that it might give people ideas...

    Or maybe because they intend to release him at a later date. At the end of everything, when the stars have died and the worlds are barren the big T will final be unleashed to destroy the dead universe and create the the void of absolute nothing needed for a new universe to be born.

    His sole purpose is to sweep up and turn off the lights after everyone. But not until they've all finished.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 21, 2003
    Posts: 200


    Send private message
    Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:21 pm  

    There have also been connection with him as the Elder Elemental Evil. So he may be necessary as the ultimate representation of evil. But I still see him as a Nyralathotep figure who may be the herald for things much worse. Considering Gygax has stated that he was originaly inspired by the Cthulu Mythos in the first place I think this works. Maybe by just imprisoning him it keeps whatever else would come after him at bay for the moment. But I also like the idea of him being the one who ends it all when the new cycle needs to begin. Very fitting for a lord of entropy and also makes me think of the Elric novels which are another big influence on early D&D.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 25, 2007
    Posts: 951
    From: Neck Deep in the Viscounty of Verbobonc

    Send private message
    Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:06 pm  

    You might also find this interesting: http://ulmo.mux.net/greyhawk/tharizdun.html
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008
    Posts: 20
    From: Pendleton, IN

    Send private message
    Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:11 am  

    DavidBedlam wrote:


    Or maybe because they intend to release him at a later date. At the end of everything, when the stars have died and the worlds are barren the big T will final be unleashed to destroy the dead universe and create the the void of absolute nothing needed for a new universe to be born.

    His sole purpose is to sweep up and turn off the lights after everyone. But not until they've all finished.


    This is my first post on CF (hi! Thanks for all the articles, everyone!), but I wanted to say I like that explanation about as well as anything I've seen.

    And ditto on statting the Big T in the mag. I didn't care for it then, and don't now. He seemed to lose a little...well, I don't know if you'd call it prestige or what with that treatment.

    And thanks for the link, BubbaGump.
    Forum Moderator

    Joined: Feb 26, 2004
    Posts: 2586
    From: Ullinois

    Send private message
    Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:31 pm  

    Welcome to canonfire Zachary! Happy
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 25, 2007
    Posts: 951
    From: Neck Deep in the Viscounty of Verbobonc

    Send private message
    Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:57 pm  

    Of course, the real reason Tharizdun couldn't be beaten is that no one ever got around to publishing the rest of his story. That and he was just too cool to die. Historically (grodog, you can correct me on this if I screw it up), both Gygax and Kuntz intended to eventually address the Tharizdun legend, but both got derailed by other projects.

    In Gygax's version (the "official" version of the legend) inconsistencies in the story arose, which in turn gave rise to the idea that Tharizdun was in fact imprisoned twice - once in prehistory, and once more recently in avatar form. (As an aside, there has recently arisen a question as to the dating of the avatar's imprisonment. Apparently the date given in the splatbook is inconsistent with the fact that one of the Six from Shadow is from Greyhawk City - which didn't exist at the time of the imprisonment. Gygax addressed that issue years ago by stating that the Six actually travelled back in time to accomplish their mission.) Gygax eventually did manage to address the Tharizdun legend in his Gord the Rogue books, and has hinted that there is yet one chapter in the saga remaining - in the as-yet-unwritten 8th Gord novel. The Gord version of the legend, however, is not the story that was originally meant to unfold via the medium of D&D adventures.

    More recently Rob Kuntz attempted to produce a series of adventures addressing Tharizdun but only the first adventure in the series managed to get published. It's called "Dark Druids" for those who are interested, and is available from pied-piper-publishing.com. Troll Lords also published a version of DD, but their version is OOP. I haven't had a chance to run the adventure yet but it looks to be quite deadly. It also contains numerous notes on various things of interest to Tharizdun fans.

    I am disappointed to see that Tharizdun was reduced to "lesser" status in the Dragon article. I suspect this is due to the official position that a deity's power stems from his worshippers. In spite of the fact that it makes no sense in real-world terms, this concept would dictate that Tharizdun would eventually become weak since he has so few worshipers. Personally, I think this concept is crap. But, for those interested in canon, Mr. Gygax has addressed the subject of Tharizdun's original status in Oerth Journal #12. He explains in that issue that Tharizdun was originally conceived to be a super-powerful, primordial sort of entity far beyond the capacity of even the gods to defeat permanently. If you buy into the above-described concept, he would have been mighty indeed if dozens of millennia of imprisonment could only reduce him to "lesser deity" status.

    FWIW, IMC Tharizdun is still as powerful as ever. I don't subscribe to the notion that deities receive their power from elsewhere, and thus I haven't bothered to weaken him. The stats in the Dragon article I ascribe to his imprisoned avatar (which, IMC, still sleeps in the 'Forgotten Temple' and is soon to rise!).
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3287
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:34 pm  

    The imprisoned Tharizdun in Come Endless Darkness took the form of a small boy with delusions of grandeur but greatly reduced power. He only returned to his full potency when the Theorparts were reunited. If the stats in Dragon are for his imprisoned, childlike form, there's no conflict.

    I wasn't aware of Gygax ever invoking time travel in his Tharizdun mythos. Where did that happen?
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 25, 2007
    Posts: 951
    From: Neck Deep in the Viscounty of Verbobonc

    Send private message
    Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:52 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    The imprisoned Tharizdun in Come Endless Darkness took the form of a small boy with delusions of grandeur but greatly reduced power. He only returned to his full potency when the Theorparts were reunited. If the stats in Dragon are for his imprisoned, childlike form, there's no conflict.

    I wasn't aware of Gygax ever invoking time travel in his Tharizdun mythos. Where did that happen?


    This was not in his writings per se, but rather in one of his many question-and-answer interviews. As such, I should have mentioned that many of the answers he gave in such interviews have contradicted answers given in other interviews and thus are not entirely within the realm of canon. See the URL posted above for a source on this.

    And yes, the Dragon stats likely are related at least in part to Gygax's story. It was only the status as "lesser" that I attribute to the official concept discussed earlier.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 01, 2004
    Posts: 104
    From: France

    Send private message
    Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:12 pm  

    About the stats of Tharizdum, I think you can only have those for an avatar.

    About the question why the Gods didn't kill Big T, my opinion is that not only they could not kill him but still they did not want to.

    The Gods had a purpose.

    I have my own heretic opinion about the fate of Tharizdum : the Gods did not kill him because he was not one God (or one Lawful Good God as Maldin said Wink ), he was several Gods. They were even two pantheons of Gods.

    Want more of this insane theory ?
    Forum Moderator

    Joined: Feb 26, 2004
    Posts: 2586
    From: Ullinois

    Send private message
    Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:36 pm  

    Darn it Gallis, continue. You have my attention... Smile
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 01, 2004
    Posts: 104
    From: France

    Send private message
    Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:26 am  

    OK. I warn you beforehand: it’s a weird tale.

    I always wanted to find a reason for the different cosmologies between the D&D system (basic, expert, companion, master and immortal boxed sets) and the AD&D system (MM, PH, DMG, and Manual of the Planes for short).

    The main difference is that the D&D mutliverse is composed of an infinite number of finite outer planes and the AD&D multiverse is composed of a finite number of infinite outer planes (the ring or wheel of outer planes). Think of it like the world of Christopher Priest’s novel “Inverted World”.

    Another difference is that, in the D&D multiverse, there is no negative nor positive material planes, but they do exist in the AD&D multiverse. These two material planes also introduced Evil and Good in the AD&D alignment chart and determined the place of the outer planes in the wheel, while the alignment in D&D remain Law – Neutral – Chaotic and the outer planes are not ordered.

    So, as the AD&D game rules came after the D&D rules system, I say to myself: something can explain all those changes, something must have happened, indeed, something really huge MUST have happened and the Gods MUST have done something about it.

    Well, I won’t extrapolate about WHY They done something, I’ll just say WHAT They done. In the D&D cosmology, the Gods belong to Spheres : Matter, Energy, Time, Thought and Entropy. At one point, I assume They collectively done something which resulted in the transformation of the cosmos which gave us the AD&D multiverse. They decided to get rid of the Entropy Sphere.

    Oh, They did not kill all of the Entropy Gods, as I said They could not and They did not want to. And some demons survived from the D&D world to the AD&D world like Orcus and Demogorgon. They just managed to sink a majority of Them in – well… in Nothingness, creating in the same way a huge black hole (and white hole) in the continuum which gave Them a new source of energy: positive and negative material planes, a new source of magic.

    The banished Gods were collectively named “Tharizdum”, because it could mean in the Old Tongue: “Theirs is Doom” or more explicit: “To Them belong the Doom”, “They were doomed to be expulsed”. This expulsion caused also the rearrangement of the outer planes in a ring, and the distortions of the multiverse were such that they merged to become finite in number but infinite in size. By the way, the Gods were satisfied of the result. Needless to say that the Spheres were disrupted and the Gods found their home in planes according to their alignment, the remaining weakened Entropy Gods filling the 666 Abyss.

    Now I ask you one question: which were the two pantheons that were expulsed from a certain Deities & Demigods rules book?
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 01, 2004
    Posts: 104
    From: France

    Send private message
    Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:00 am  

    YES, I say :

    1. Tharizdum is the Cthulhu and the Melnibonée pantheons + other chaotic Gods (your choice).
    2. His “prison” is beyond the positive and negative material planes (out there)

    If Tharizdum is freed, this will happen:

    1. Cthulhu & co. and Melnibonée Gods will come back to the AD&D multiverse and they are not happy
    2. The Outer Planes Ring collapse (good bye Planescape)
    3. The Outer Planes become again finite in size, infinite in number and not ordered
    4. It will take time for all this to calm down, but it will… (No, this is not the end of the world)
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 25, 2003
    Posts: 7


    Send private message
    Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:12 am  

    DavidBedlam wrote:
    Or maybe because they intend to release him at a later date. At the end of everything, when the stars have died and the worlds are barren the big T will final be unleashed to destroy the dead universe and create the the void of absolute nothing needed for a new universe to be born.

    His sole purpose is to sweep up and turn off the lights after everyone. But not until they've all finished.


    Holy crap! That's just plain cool. The physicist in me thinks this is just amazing...

    I think I have the end of my campaign!

    "The universe is old... incredibly old. The last star has flickered out and all is dark. Mayahine* beckons you to her side. 'You have served me well over the millenia, and now it is time to see the ultimate fate of your actions, oh so long ago.' With that you see all of the gods gather as you transition to the Astral plane. There, in front of the gate that you stood in front of all those eons ago, you see them all join together, and in a brilliant flash of light, a key is formed which they insert into the lock, and slowly turn. The gate opens, and HE is released. At first, it seems as though just a small wisp of black smoke has drifted out but then you see Tharizdun emerge. With only a moment's hesitation he moves to the Prime Material plane, and slowly begins to devour all that is left. Time is immeasurable now, but it does not take 'long'. And when all is gone, the universe, or what is left of it, collapses.

    After what seems like both an eternity and instantaneously at the same time, there is a brilliant flash of light, and a new universe is born.

    'Quickly now', Mayahine intones, 'what was once done all those many years ago must be repeated. We must imprison HIM again and give this new universe a chance at life.'

    And again, you see the gods converge on Dread Tharizdun..."

    *One of my PCs is a cleric of Mayahine.

    Greg

    P.S. Please be kind to my crappy prose. :) (edit: and my crappy spelling :)


    Last edited by gregh on Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:59 am; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3287
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:20 am  

    bubbagump wrote:
    It was only the status as "lesser" that I attribute to the official concept discussed earlier.


    Dragon #294 actually listed him as "intermediate" rather than lesser.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 25, 2007
    Posts: 951
    From: Neck Deep in the Viscounty of Verbobonc

    Send private message
    Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:52 pm  

    I misspoke. By brain got stuck on the idea of "lesser" as in "lesser than a greater god".
    Forum Moderator

    Joined: Feb 26, 2004
    Posts: 2586
    From: Ullinois

    Send private message
    Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:54 pm  

    Gallis that was something I didn't see coming! wow. Shocked
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 01, 2004
    Posts: 104
    From: France

    Send private message
    Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:44 pm  

    Mortellan: it would seem that your comic Tharizdum cultists should become "Call of Cthulhu" and "Stormbringer" players. Wink
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Dec 01, 2006
    Posts: 34


    Send private message
    Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:14 pm  

    Maybe, as IMC, Tharazidun never even existed. There are just those who think he does, and think he must be imprisoned, and therefore think they need to free him. Whos knows, maybe the thought of this big bad imprisoned god is just one of Olimadarra's best tricks ever...
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 25, 2007
    Posts: 951
    From: Neck Deep in the Viscounty of Verbobonc

    Send private message
    Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:22 pm  

    I've often thought that more should be done with Olidammara, since I'm unaware of a single legendary trick he's ever played. But, given the amount of canon on the subject, I don't think Tharizdun fits the bill.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3287
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:27 pm  

    bubbagump wrote:
    I've often thought that more should be done with Olidammara, since I'm unaware of a single legendary trick he's ever played.


    Dragon #342 has a couple. He inspired a rebellion with an illusion crafted with the Kanteel of the Oldest and charmed the truename from a demon prince.

    He also once looted Zagig Yragerne's treasure hoard.


    Last edited by rasgon on Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 17, 2004
    Posts: 924
    From: Computer Desk

    Send private message
    Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:56 pm  

    Olidammara also has a friendly rivalry with Norebo which extends to the followers. I guess they kept it undefined to allow DMs to fit it into there individual campaigns easier.

    Some really like comedy while others get irritated with a bunch of practical jokers running around - like those gnomes - get a shave already.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 21, 2003
    Posts: 200


    Send private message
    Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:32 pm  

    Galliskinmaufrius wrote:
    Mortellan: it would seem that your comic Tharizdum cultists should become "Call of Cthulhu" and "Stormbringer" players. Wink


    Although I have played and enjoyed both games, I also own one of the original 1st ED. harback Dieteies and deni Gods that has both the Melnibonean and Cthulhu Mythos in them. And I have used some of the creatures to great effect in games.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 01, 2004
    Posts: 104
    From: France

    Send private message
    Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:55 am  

    Master vonbek,

    Tell us more! Which creature have you used? The Great Cthulhu itself?

    BTW, does anybody think that the Mother, worshipped by the Lerara, under the passage of Slerotin, is in fact Shub-Niggurat?
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 21, 2003
    Posts: 200


    Send private message
    Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:26 am  

    I've used the Byakhee stats a few times and the My-Go once as far as the Cthulhu creatures go. For the Melnibonean creatures I've used the Vulture Lions, Dharzi hunting dogs, Clackers and the Olab before. My favorite monet was when my one friend, who is a huge Lovecraft Fan, realized it was a byakee he was fighting. I've never seen a player get that scared before.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 01, 2004
    Posts: 104
    From: France

    Send private message
    Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:12 pm  

    vonbek wrote:
    I've never seen a player get that scared before.


    Oh, yes! That's worth it. I find it very difficult to really scare a player!
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:17 pm  

    bubbagump wrote:
    Mr. Gygax . . . in Oerth Journal #12 . . . explains in that issue that Tharizdun was originally conceived to be a super-powerful, primordial sort of entity far beyond the capacity of even the gods to defeat permanently. If you buy into the above-described concept, he would have been mighty indeed if dozens of millennia of imprisonment could only reduce him to "lesser deity" status.


    Hey, I've only been here three days! Mad Coming to some of these things late! Sorry.

    I use ancient Greek mythology to pidgeon-hole Tharizdun . . .

    "Long before the Gods appeared, in the dim past, uncounted ages ago, there was only the formless confusion Chaos brooded over by unbroken darkness. At last . . . two children were born to this shapeless nothingness. Night was the child of Chaos and so was Erebus . . . Black-winged Night into the bosom of Erebus . . . laid a wind-born egg . . . From darkness and death Love was born, and with its birth, order and beauty began to banish blind confusion . . . Earth, the beautiful, rose up . . . And fair Earth first bore the starry Heaven, equal to herself . . . The first creatures who had the appearances of life were the children of Mother Earth and Father Heaven (Gaea and Ouranos)." The book Mythology by Edith Hamilton 1942. (italics are mine)

    Gaea and Ouranos' first brood of children were Monsters. These included the Titans, the Cyclopes and others. The Greeks did not think of these "monsters" in the same sense that we think of monsters; these were very human like. The Titans were the fathers/mothers of the Gods. Cool

    Zeus, King of the Gods, once laid down a challenge. He said that he would take hold of one end of a chain and all the other Gods were to take hold of the other end of the chain. All the Gods together could not pull mighty Zeus down from heaven, but, if he wished, Zeus would draw all of them up to heaven. Such was his might. Shocked

    That said, even Zeus was said to be afraid of Night and Chaos. These primordal Gods took no interest in men, or our world. Who's to say what would have happened had Chaos, or Night, decided to undo it all? Confused Could the Gods have stopped them? Confused

    I like to think of Tharizdun as that Order of Being. I think of him as a cross between Chaos and Night. Cool He existed long before the Gods "we know today" and had his own specific task, before any of the modern Gods arrived on the scene.

    The Gods could "wrestle" him into a "cell" and "slam the door closed." But they could not kill him. Mad

    Just my thoughts. Happy
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 21, 2003
    Posts: 538
    From: Germany

    Send private message
    Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:31 am  

    mortellan wrote:
    Stating up Tharizdun in Dragon was a heinous mistake IMO.


    I agree that the stats weren't done very good. Deity stats esp. the 3E ones were seldom done in a good way. The Dicefreaks forums in its earlier incarnations tried to amend the 3E rules so that Epic rules were integrated with Deities rules and tried to build a cosmology where the stats actually reflect the flavour and make sense if correlated with each other.

    So in short: you can always restat Tharizdun as Phaedros did on dicefreaks forums.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 17, 2004
    Posts: 924
    From: Computer Desk

    Send private message
    Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:50 am  

    Great Link Thanael Wink

    For myself; I don't really need divine stats - if PCs are running around killing Demon Lords and Gods - let alone Tharizdun. Obviously something is seriously wrong in the game. I am a supporter of "less is more" gamer theory. To often games spiral out of control through treasure as it becomes the bigger is better aspect to challenge the players and before too long everyone has an artifact of doom.

    Not to mention the loss of any sense of realism in the gameworld; as the players happily commit divine and demonic genocide - little thought is given to the reactions of the established power structure.

    Consequences:
    Temporal authorities should take notice of anyone with large sums of wealth and magic but many games simply allow their players to stockpile treasure as if they were dragons. Obviously the nobility and kings are going to take note; stockpiles of magic and treasure - donation to the crown - if not he becomes a security threat. Even minor items would draw attention from local lords and seek to confiscate them if possible but PCs still walk around dripping with magic. At the high end; no monarch will allow the strongholds some players construct. Oozing magic; storehouses of magic weapons and rumours of artifacts - fine no problem.

    Spirtitual authorities should take notice of any actions to tamper with the spiritual planes. Killing any Demon Lords could concentrate power or provide an opportunity to tip the blood war. Mention how the faithful will feel if a deity is killed - not just his followers - PCs kill Hextor but what about Heironeous and his faith - theological and physical combat between the two is central to his belief system. May be Heironeous wants his brother around. May be the "evil" deities serve a cosmic purpose and even the "good" faiths do not want that messed up.

    I could see the other deities arriving to kill the meddling PCs and protect Tharzidun - cosmic reason that he was imprisoned - future part in the rebirth of creation.
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:22 pm  

    Well said, Crag! Happy

    I don't use stats for Gods at all. Confused I don't believe that any mortal can challenge a God, to begin with. Irregadless of where the Gods might "stand" with relation each other, to mortals they are omnipotent. Shocked

    Then, as you said, there would be all of the repercussions you spoke of. Cool

    But, I also use a "stricter" view when it comes to a God's ranking. For instance; a Demi-God and a Lesser God are in the boxing ring, the Demi-God will lose. Mad

    For me, there are ways in which a Demi-God could "beat" a Lesser God and, therefore, "move up." But not if the Demi-God tries it "toe-to-toe." Sad

    Just the way I do it. Happy
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 17, 2004
    Posts: 924
    From: Computer Desk

    Send private message
    Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:32 pm  

    I agree PC and divine combat should be an exercise in farce Wink

    I also think a definite purpose should exist for the divine rankings of Deities beyond experience points. Such as the spell potency that the ranked deities could impart to the priests.

    It is the video game mentality; Deities and Demon Lords have merely become another creature to destroy at the end of the game unless Wotc creates an expansion pack.

    Welcome to MMORPG Greyhawk Sad
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:51 pm  

    Crag wrote:
    I agree PC and divine combat should be an exercise in farce Wink

    It is the video game mentality; Deities and Demon Lords have merely become another creature to destroy at the end of the game unless Wotc creates an expansion pack.


    Amen brother! Amen! Cool

    Even in our own mythology, it was the monster minions of the Gods that were defeated, not the Gods themselves. The plans of the Gods were occasionally bested, but even then, it was by someone of semi-divine rank, like Heracles, not a "mere mortal." Cool

    Just my thoughts. Happy
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Display posts from previous:   
       Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion All times are GMT - 8 Hours
    Page 1 of 1

    Jump to:  

    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot vote in polls in this forum




    Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises

    Contact the Webmaster.  Long Live Spidasa!


    Greyhawk Gothic Font by Darlene Pekul is used under the Creative Commons License.

    PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.
    Page Generation: 0.70 Seconds