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    Canonfire :: View topic - Least popular areas of the Flanaess?
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    Least popular areas of the Flanaess?
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:41 am  
    Least popular areas of the Flanaess?

    Does anyone care to offer their opinions on which areas of the Flanaess are the least popular, i.e. have received the least amount of attention in printed sources & from fans?
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:47 am  

    It always felt like the Bakluni areas were pretty light on coverage to me.

    Then obviously the stuff west of there.
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    Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:37 pm  

    I always felt like the Rovers of the Barrens always got the short end of the stick. Although they have gotten a little more attention since the IUZ thing.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:06 pm  

    The whole of the north and the Baklunish lands seems to get short shrift. Tehn and Almor have always been passed over as being inconsequential as well, which probably is the main reason why both were trashed in the Greyhawk Wars.
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:55 am  

    The articles Gary Gygax (and Rob Kuntz) wrote in the Dragon were intended to cover all of the Flanaess so in that regard all areas were officially of equal worth and merit. Closer scrutiny, however, reveals that certain areas were more dear to Gary's heart than others. Greyhawk, of course, as well as Iuz, Bandit Kingdoms, Horned Society, The Great Kingdom and Furyondy received more love and attention. Of course, the articles never got around to detail the western Flanaess.

    After the Greyhawk Wars some areas of the Flanaess were more or less nuked, e.g. Tenh, Almor, Geoff, Bissel, Medegia, and that naturally curbed the enthusiasm to detail it further. Other areas were suddenly more exciting, Nyrond, Great Kingdom, Furyondy etc., which guaranteed the attention of writing and projects.

    IMO, any nation in the Flanaess could become very interesting as a campaign start if carefully detailed by a DM. I had a great campaign centered on the Sea Barons and the Spindrift Isles with lots of kewl ideas. It ended due to a TPK but that's life (or death) for you.
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    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:07 am  

    The Gran March project was started for two reasons:

    1) it was a very neglected piece of real estate, particularly since it was wedged between Geoff, Keoland, and Bissell.

    2) it was so undeveloped we could offend no one but Samwise Wink

    I still have dreams of completing that project... one day!
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:53 am  

    Anced_Math wrote:
    The Gran March project was started for two reasons:

    1) it was a very neglected piece of real estate, particularly since it was wedged between Geoff, Keoland, and Bissell.

    2) it was so undeveloped we could offend no one but Samwise Wink

    I still have dreams of completing that project... one day!

    Any projections on when this might be added to?

    I'm starting a campaign in Gran March and the maps at least, based on your thumbnails anyways, would be useful as a start.

    Thanks.
    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:32 am  

    Hey John D,

    I don't want to hijack, so I have posted over in the Gran March Project section.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:10 pm  

    Is Samwise still here somewhere. I have not herd or seen of him in the forums for a long time. He was a regular.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:13 am  

    tulkas wrote:
    Is Samwise still here somewhere. I have not herd or seen of him in the forums for a long time. He was a regular.


    I don't know if he is posting on CF, but he does hang out in the #oerthjournal chatroom (invite only) on the greytalk chat server. I wasn't here when he stopped hanging out in #greytalk, so you would have to ask him why.

    For posts, he is contributing to the new Pathfinder RPG at Paizo.com and conducting "raids" against the man (read WizOs) at Wizards.com. If you want helpful Sam check at his stuff at Paizo, if you want cranky, contentious Sam you can brave the boards at WotC.

    That is what I know,

    Bryan Blumklotz
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    Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:51 am  

    Samwise and PSmedger got into a fight about simulationism. It wasn't pretty.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:20 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    Samwise and PSmedger got into a fight about simulationism. It wasn't pretty.


    They. Got. In. A. Fight. About. GNS Theory? I mean come on, why not have a fight over something important?

    While I love conceptual frameworks to talk about ideas, when they become bludgeons to beat each other with, I get a bit cranky. My dislike of this theory only grows.

    Bryan Blumklotz
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    Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:01 am  

    Saracenus wrote:
    They. Got. In. A. Fight. About. GNS Theory?


    Specifically, I think they were talking about Oerth's pantheons, Samwise from a simulationist perspective and PSmedger from a narrativist perspective. So not about the theory itself (they didn't use those words). But it was even more trivial than I made it sound.
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:59 am  

    HOWEVER, let it not be said that either Sam or Gary is to be avoided. I consider myself friends of both, and chat with both regularly. Both have proven excellent sources of GH lore, both are more than willing to help those in search of greater GH knowledge, and both have inspired numerous ideas in my campaign and others.

    So let's not do or say anything to cast aspersions on either or to reignite the arguments of the past. Both men are worthy of respect for the contributions they've made to GH and to gaming at large.

    And now, to get back on topic:

    I think pretty much any area at the edge of the Flanaess map has been neglected, though the north and far west have probably suffered most from this.

    Currently, some of us are attempting to remedy this through the Far North Project, the forum for which is somewhere on these boards. Feel free to drop by and comment, contribute, or criticize (preferably contribute Wink ).
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:57 am  

    bubbagump wrote:
    HOWEVER, let it not be said that either Sam or Gary is to be avoided. I consider myself friends of both, and chat with both regularly. Both have proven excellent sources of GH lore, both are more than willing to help those in search of greater GH knowledge, and both have inspired numerous ideas in my campaign and others.

    So let's not do or say anything to cast aspersions on either or to reignite the arguments of the past. Both men are worthy of respect for the contributions they've made to GH and to gaming at large.


    Bubba,

    Neither Rasgon or myself have attacked Gary or Sam. I communicate with both regularly and consider both as valued acquaintances (I would not be so forward as to assume friends). I was expressing my exasperation at the situation rather than the people involved.

    Please do not paint me (I do not know Rasgon's position in this, nor has he indicated it in this thread) as a partisan in this dispute. I wasn't there when it happened and I am not taking sides now.

    I will state, that I am starting to get some serious hate going for the whole GNS theory because of flaws I see in its premise and the fact that it becomes a club for people to bash each other over the head with it.

    I was ready to stop hijacking this thread after my last post, but if you want to discuss what happened or GNS, I will kindly suggest we start a separate thread.

    Ending my threadjack as of this post. Please reply elsewhere or in private if you want to discuss this.

    Bryan Blumklotz
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    Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:33 am  

    Gilban wrote:
    IMO, any nation in the Flanaess could become very interesting as a campaign start if carefully detailed by a DM.


    This is my feeling as well. I started this topic mainly out of curiousity. I was thinking about how I wanted to take one of the 2 groups I'm DMing in the Bandit Kingdoms to visit Blackmoor. Then I thought, "Well, who doesn't want to do that?" It got me wondering about areas that get less attention.

    Thanks to all for your replies.
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:39 am  

    One of my favorite areas of the Flaness, and one that originally had great development (think Slavers) was the Wild Coast. However, since FtA, it seems to have fallen off the map.

    THoughts?
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:52 am  

    Anced_Math wrote:
    One of my favorite areas of the Flaness, and one that originally had great development (think Slavers) was the Wild Coast. However, since FtA, it seems to have fallen off the map.

    THoughts?


    I would say that post FtA, the wild coast has had a lot more love that most areas:
      * Slavers
      * Dungeon Issue 85 had an adventure set in Narwell.
      * WotC Living Greyhawk section has several general lore entries about the wild coast pertaining to that campaign.

    That's just off the top of my head.

    I would say that offically the Duchy of Urnst (The County at least got a map update in The Marklands) has been pretty much left alone if you discount the Maure Castle levels in Dungeon Magazine (there really isn't much there for the Duchy in modern times).

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    Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:03 pm  

    Saracenus wrote:
    Please do not paint me (I do not know Rasgon's position in this, nor has he indicated it in this thread) as a partisan in this dispute. I wasn't there when it happened and I am not taking sides now.


    You mistake my intent, sir! I was merely trying to forestall any future bickering before it could begin. My comments name none but Sam and Gary, nor do they accuse. Rest assured (again) that I mean no harm!
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    Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:21 pm  

    I have been very intrested in what is on the rest of the continent to the West. I have read an article about west here on Canonfire! that was very good, and I know that the Chainmail Miniatures Handbook had info, but it is hard to find.
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    Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:48 pm  

    Saracenus wrote:


    I would say that offically the Duchy of Urnst (The County at least got a map update in The Marklands) has been pretty much left alone if you discount the Maure Castle levels in Dungeon Magazine (there really isn't much there for the Duchy in modern times).



    Although it got a nice write up in one of the recent OJ's didn't it?
    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:32 am  

    I am actually gonna go with Keoland and Sterich, which are largely the same place for political purposes. You get Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh and against the Giants, which are terrific adventures, but that's still a flash in the pan compared to some of the other adventures which span months in size and scope.

    Keoland is easily my favorite area in the Flanaess, I just dig how its essentially the frontier to an extremely hostile south with the Scarlet Brotherhood and a literal horde of underwater malcontents.

    I should like to see more done with Keoland.

    Keep in mind I forget as fast as I learn, so I may be missing something gigantic which happened there.
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    Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:37 pm  

    chaoticprime wrote:
    I am actually gonna go with Keoland and Sterich, which are largely the same place for political purposes. You get Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh and against the Giants, which are terrific adventures, but that's still a flash in the pan compared to some of the other adventures which span months in size and scope.

    Keoland is easily my favorite area in the Flanaess, I just dig how its essentially the frontier to an extremely hostile south with the Scarlet Brotherhood and a literal horde of underwater malcontents.

    I should like to see more done with Keoland.

    Keep in mind I forget as fast as I learn, so I may be missing something gigantic which happened there.


    Actually as far as areas with quite a bit of support, Keoland gets a lot of love. Aside from Saltmarsh in DMG II, the secret of Saltmarsh series, there are more than a few Dungeon modules set near there, or actually in it. There's more than a bit from Living Greyhawk (Gary Holian's stuff is the bomb), and earlier this year Canonfire did a post fest for Salinmoor, the viscounty that Saltmarsh is in.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sat Mar 29, 2008 3:21 am  

    Instead I found Kingdom of Celene receives same few attentions in these years. Maybe cause of its isolationism and/or its chaotic flavor. Only one town known (Enstad) and never mapped.
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    Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:40 am  

    Least popular/most overlooked areas of the Flanaess: Ratik, Yeomanry, the Bakluni lands, Blackmoor, the Wolf & Tiger Nomads, Perrenland, the Rovers of the Barrens, the Lendore Isles, Sunndi, and all of the "wilderness" areas - the various forests, swamps, highlands and mountains, not to mention the seas and major lakes. Several of my more recent campaigns have been set in some of these lands just for this reason.
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    Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:51 am  

    WHoo hoo! Celene untouched! I cannot imagine how bad it could be if the LG took it and ran. There has been some excellent development with some LG triads, I am not denying that. But, when it has been bad, it has been really, really bad.

    So, the first fey kingdom detailed by LG? The thought makes me shiver. I prefer it just a grey space on the map that I might develop for my home campaign someday.
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    Sun Mar 30, 2008 2:31 pm  

    Got to agree with Anced; as the premier elven realm Celene has to be handled carefully. From what I have read, it would be to tempting to simply shatter its isolation despite valid reasons and simply march the elves to war as tolkein did.

    Another angle that has to be handled carefully is the Fey mysteries and the people of testing; again the easy avenue is to turn it into a dastardly scheme to remake oerth.

    Both scenarios would have seriously damaged the unique culture of the elven race within GH.
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    Sun Mar 30, 2008 2:41 pm  

    And I say, why do we care what Living Greyhawk has done. It is beyond unlikely that Living Greyhawk material will become canon.

    Besides the LGG we don't really count what happens there as canon. As I have understood it, what happens in LG is like any other campaign. Its a "personal" variant.

    As for kid gloves for Celene. I will do what is best for my home game and if that means that events shake it up (or not), it works for my campaign. Anything I publish as fannon is just that and you can take it or leave it.

    I appreciate people wanting to do right by Greyhawk, but for the love of the game world, don't box yourselves in just because it was writ, low those many years ago. Greyhawk is not some divine holy text that is unchanging. It should be a living, breathing world that evolves like one.

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    Bryan Blumklotz
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    Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:51 pm  

    Hey Saracenus,

    I agree on all points. My response was partially in response to JHSII's post, and Merikel's before that. In my post if you substitute "Triad," with "Wizards" my sentiment remains the same. I like the flexibility that having Celene unknown creates. It is my preference, as are the lack of definition in the Lortmils.

    I like the definition and substance I find on CF! I don't want a completely mapped world. And there are some areas that I dont want mapped by anybody but me. I always feel completely free to change anything.
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    Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:27 pm  

    JHSII wrote:
    I agree with Merikel completely. One of the things that the Dead Greyhawk people did was to remove Celene from the Triad arrangement, and tell us that they had plans for it - and that was right at the beginning. Since then, nothing. Now Dead Greyhawk is finally going away in favor of "Living" Forgotten Realms and there never will be canon development of any kind.


    You say that last like its a bad thing. Wink I think Celene is best left largely alone for three reasons:

    1) Within the campaign setting, Celene is more a "DM tool" than a play area. It is the only elven nation worthy of that designation in a humanocentric setting, in a game that holds out elves, by player fiat or design intent, as "special," or "mysterious" or significantly and interestingly "different." As such, to define Celene very closely would define too much in all likelihood, lessening its utility as a DM tool.

    2) Elves are subject to any number of equally valid definitions. Choose one and others may be precluded or excluded. That decision, IMO, should belong to each play group. Some may want Tolkien elves, some may want elves from mythology, some may want elves from this novel or that. Given only one elven nation, the freedom to choose freely needs to be respected by leaving Celene in large measure alone to allow the setting maximum flexibility for play style/preference.

    3) No one I have ever read has any real concept of what an "elf" might be, were such real, except JRR Tolkien. This is not to say that Tolkien was "right" and everyone else "wrong" but that only Tolkien put in the effort to imagine a multidimensional elven culture and then personality. Every elf since has been a) a dim reflection of Tolkien, b) a pencil sketch contra-Tolkien (necromancer elves, cosmopolitian elves, anti-human elves etc.), or c) humans with pointy ears. I have zero reason to suspect this would change particularly in the hands of game designers who are quick to be clever but slow to be careful.

    This is not to say Celene can't have _any_ development but that any development needs to leave undefined as much as is defined. That's my opinion anyway. YMMV.
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    Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:26 am  

    ...seems evident that StoneHold (Hold of Stone Fist), is neglected here... ...but not for long...sort of. Confused

    I've added some history, some politcal changes, developed several towns, the capital, etc... basing it off of a Scandanvian styled society.

    Currently running a campaign in this area, which is helping me develop it/round it out a little... I'll consider on forwarding my material to CF... though I never feel worthy to impart my version of GH... maybe....time will tell.

    Cheers

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    Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:45 am  

    I'd be interested in reading your material. I've been thinking about taking one of my groups to Stonehold, but I've had a hard time coming up with material for that region that would give it it's own distinct flavor separate from the lands of Iuz & the Bandit Kingdoms.
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    Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:08 am  

    Saracenus valid points but I was talking in the context of Living Greyhawk and given the uniqueness of Celene I don't trust them to develop it in a way I would enjoy.

    I am not saying it can't be developed whatever way helps your campaign; my point was given the mixed results of LG development; I am glad they didn't touch Celene.

    Its a trust issue not a canon one Wink

    As for Stonehold; it got a lot of attention in the GH wars anf its aftermath supplements plus a series of modules. Which is a lot more then some other areas.
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    Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:29 am  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    3) No one I have ever read has any real concept of what an "elf" might be, were such real, except JRR Tolkien. This is not to say that Tolkien was "right" and everyone else "wrong" but that only Tolkien put in the effort to imagine a multidimensional elven culture and then personality. Every elf since has been a) a dim reflection of Tolkien, b) a pencil sketch contra-Tolkien (necromancer elves, cosmopolitian elves, anti-human elves etc.), or c) humans with pointy ears. I have zero reason to suspect this would change particularly in the hands of game designers who are quick to be clever but slow to be careful.


    So just out of curiousity, what would be needed to flesh out a type of elf (that is not tolkienesque)? I don't disagree with your assessment at all, and generally consider myself fairly well informed on the mythology and culture of the Eldar, but I'm just curious about what exactly Tolkien got right, in terms of creating a race, as opposed to what everyone since has not accomplished.

    My reasoning is that it would be cool for us (Canonfire) to come up with a well done Greyhawk version of the Celene Elves that preserves the flavor as written, and maybe brings in some new elements without making them seem weird or contrived. Just a thought. Could even be a good idea for a post fest, once the basics are hammered out.
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    Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:18 pm  

    I developed the Yeomanry, primarily because it was 'off the beaten path'. Then I found out that LG had some info on it, and I borrowed heavily from what I liked of theirs (especially the Church of Seven Faiths; polytheism does not mean "pick a god"). I gave the guilds some political power, added a faction of anti-democratic Loyalists, and turned up the intrigue (SB at the southern border, refugees from Geoff, a sudden incursion of the long-thought-dead Drow, etc).

    I like the 'off the beaten path' areas. They allow a free hand, and keep the players from telling you how to run your game. (You hear me, Elminster?)

    RE: Elves. I like the ones from Elizabeth Moon's "Paksenarrion" trilogy. They're definitely Elves, but they're also somewhat... different. I wouldn't dump them into a D&D game without some serious nerfage, but they seemed cohesive.

    I'm sorry to hear that folks left over a disagreement. RPGs are a game of communication, so why can't gamers do a better job of communicating? Confused

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    Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:33 am  

    I run a strictly Pre Wars campaign with that said I would have to say Tenh,Stonehold,Rovers,The Nomads, Perrenland,anthing west of the Yatil-Hellfurnace Mt. chain.
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    Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:48 pm  

    Re: Celene

    As I recall, there was a description of some of the interior of the Royal Palace of Enstad and a little insight to the elves of the royal court in the Gord the Rogue book Artifact of Evil.
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