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    Canonfire :: View topic - GH web lore preservation - geocities closing down
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    GH web lore preservation - geocities closing down
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    CF Admin

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
    Posts: 1442
    From: Wichita, KS, USA

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    Wed May 20, 2009 11:01 am  
    GH web lore preservation - geocities closing down

    In case folks weren't aware, Yahoo is planning to close down geocities site at an as-yet-unspecified time later this year, per http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/geocities/geocities-05.html

    There are a number of key GH web sites on Geocities, including (from my bookmarks):

    http://www.geocities.com/ket_onwall98/

    http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5878/

    http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/8572/greyhawk/greyhawk.html

    http://www.geocities.com/wildbillhackock/CityOfGreyhawk.html

    http://www.geocities.com/maximusbutticus

    http://www.geocities.com/ricdii/Top_page.htm

    http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Tower/8841/links.html

    http://www.geocities.com/merricb/dnd.htm

    http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Keep/3762/

    http://www.geocities.com/pach.geo/greyhawk.html

    http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Starship/3961/startup.htm

    http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/5037/main.html

    I can't even promise that all of these sites are currently live (and I haven't checked).

    Given that CF! has already archived the old Codex of GH site, I propose that we do that same with these sites as well.

    Issak: you may also want to offer hosting on GreyhawkOnline.com (although we should definitely do something about the site being black-flagged as a spammer, if possible, too).

    Thoughts??
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    Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
    http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html
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    Wed May 20, 2009 12:18 pm  
    Re: GH web lore preservation - geocities closing down

    grodog wrote:
    DOWN - http://www.geocities.com/ket_onwall98/

    DOWN - http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Lair/8572/greyhawk/greyhawk.html

    DOWN - http://www.geocities.com/wildbillhackock/CityOfGreyhawk.html

    DOWN - http://www.geocities.com/ricdii/Top_page.htm

    DOWN - http://www.geocities.com/merricb/dnd.htm

    DOWN - http://www.geocities.com/pach.geo/greyhawk.html

    DOWN - http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Starship/3961/startup.htm

    DOWN - http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/5037/main.html


    Sergio :-)
    Adept Greytalker

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    Wed May 20, 2009 2:18 pm  
    Re: GH web lore preservation - geocities closing down

    grodog wrote:
    In case folks weren't aware, Yahoo is planning to close down geocities site at an as-yet-unspecified time later this year, per http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/geocities/geocities-05.html

    There are a number of key GH web sites on Geocities, including (from my bookmarks):

    <SNIP>

    http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5878/

    <SNIP>

    Given that CF! has already archived the old Codex of GH site, I propose that we do that same with these sites as well.

    Issak: you may also want to offer hosting on GreyhawkOnline.com (although we should definitely do something about the site being black-flagged as a spammer, if possible, too).

    Thoughts??


    Grodog,

    A lot of this is already preserved:

    http://web.archive.org/web/20021211190044/www.geocities.com/Area51/Keep/3762/index.htm

    I always check http://www.archive.org/web/web.php. Pretty much if its public, its been archived.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed May 20, 2009 9:24 pm  

    While webpages are archived, graphics sometimes are not, and download link targets very rarely, so be certain that material is being lost.

    For those people who still are active on GeoCities, and they are looking for a place to go... Webring is offering members 50 MB of free webspace. The loss of GeoCities was what convinced them to do this, but anybody can take advantage of this offer. So if you have (or want to put together) a Greyhawk website, you only have to join the Greyhawk Adventures webring, and that will qualify you for the free webspace. Anybody interested in more information, feel free to contact me.

    Denis, aka "Maldin"
    Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
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    Wed May 20, 2009 11:54 pm  

    Very strange that Geocities is shutting down. I guess it was ahead of it's time. I thought online storage was the wave of the future? Is Yahoo losing it's swagger?
    Site Theocrat

    Joined: Aug 15, 2003
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    Thu May 21, 2009 6:02 am  
    GreyhawkOnline.com

    Hi all -
    I'm unsure of how to get GHO out of the "spammers" box. I've asked my host and Grodog even asked Yahoo! tech support.
    Also, GHO is in serious danger of closing. I just paid the last $30 for hosting for the month and this is likely the last that I can do it without further support. Bryan (Saracenus) paid for the last month and Grodog and even Mort pitched in. Anced Math has in the past. Unfortunately, this past year has been extremely bad financially.
    But with me losing unemployment benefits next week - after nearly a year of being unemployed I can't pay for the sites any longer.
    I'm trying to figure out Dreamweaver per Brian's suggestion (have a book to help but it's not like I expected) to give GHO a make-over. So GHO and OerthJournal.com really need a sponsor for the Summer. Without them, June might be the last month that GHO is up.
    OJ and GHO are really the main sites - but there is also ThePale.org and GolarionOnline.com (although nobody uses it, but the idea is to be like GreyhawkOnline.com for Paizo's Pathfinder Campaign Setting).
    So any further support is appreciated.
    The longer we can keep GHO open, the better. If we can get any of those people to post their Greyhawk files on GHO even better. That's the original point of GHO. However, with many GeoCities sites, most are no longer active - and many have forgotten that they even had a GeoCities account and likely won't respond to contact. So downloading and re-uploading the sites without their actual permission may be the only way to preserve the info. Doing so may break copyright laws, but I'm unsure of how to preserve the info otherwise.
    Be Well. Be Well Preserved.
    Theocrat Issak
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    Theocrat Issak
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    Thu May 21, 2009 10:45 am  

    Theo,

    Check your email. I will help.

    Anced
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    Thu May 21, 2009 1:49 pm  
    Re: GreyhawkOnline.com

    TheocratIssak wrote:
    Hi all -
    I'm unsure of how to get GHO out of the "spammers" box. I've asked my host and Grodog even asked Yahoo! tech support.
    Also, GHO is in serious danger of closing. I just paid the last $30 for hosting for the month and this is likely the last that I can do it without further support. Bryan (Saracenus) paid for the last month and Grodog and even Mort pitched in. Anced Math has in the past. Unfortunately, this past year has been extremely bad financially.
    But with me losing unemployment benefits next week - after nearly a year of being unemployed I can't pay for the sites any longer.
    I'm trying to figure out Dreamweaver per Brian's suggestion (have a book to help but it's not like I expected) to give GHO a make-over. So GHO and OerthJournal.com really need a sponsor for the Summer. Without them, June might be the last month that GHO is up.
    OJ and GHO are really the main sites - but there is also ThePale.org and GolarionOnline.com (although nobody uses it, but the idea is to be like GreyhawkOnline.com for Paizo's Pathfinder Campaign Setting).
    So any further support is appreciated.
    The longer we can keep GHO open, the better. If we can get any of those people to post their Greyhawk files on GHO even better. That's the original point of GHO. However, with many GeoCities sites, most are no longer active - and many have forgotten that they even had a GeoCities account and likely won't respond to contact. So downloading and re-uploading the sites without their actual permission may be the only way to preserve the info. Doing so may break copyright laws, but I'm unsure of how to preserve the info otherwise.
    Be Well. Be Well Preserved.
    Theocrat Issak


    Issak,

    You might consider a PayPal link for donations. That's what Steve did over at Dragonsfoot a couple of years back, and he was inundated with support.
    CF Admin

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
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    From: Wichita, KS, USA

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    Thu May 21, 2009 7:12 pm  

    I can put more money into the site fund if necessary, but if other folks are willing/able to contribute first, I'd appreciate not footing the bill three times within a year :D

    FWIW, webarchive.org often doesn't drill down multiple layers into a site, so if a GH site has ~8 layers of web page directories/pages, it may only archive the first 2 or 3 layers, for example. So, I wouldn't rely on webarchive.org as our primary archive for any extensive and deep GH sites.

    re: spammer status: who's the host for the sites, Issak? Perhaps I can try to get in touch with some real tech support folks to work through the black list issue.
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    Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
    http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 21, 2003
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    From: Germany

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    Thu May 21, 2009 11:06 pm  
    Re: GreyhawkOnline.com

    DMPrata wrote:

    Issak,

    You might consider a PayPal link for donations. That's what Steve did over at Dragonsfoot a couple of years back, and he was inundated with support.


    Seconded. Do put up a Paypal link and I'll donate. Heck with this many members $ 30 shouldn't be an issue at all...
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 30, 2001
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    Fri May 22, 2009 7:24 am  

    Maldin wrote:
    While webpages are archived, graphics sometimes are not, and download link targets very rarely, so be certain that material is being lost.



    Yep. I went to the web archive link and attempted to download some of the information from the City of Dyvers section. No maps or background info (i.e. none of the CONTENT) were still active links.

    Don
    Site Theocrat

    Joined: Aug 15, 2003
    Posts: 235
    From: WoG 2.0

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    Fri May 22, 2009 11:59 pm  
    Saved Stuff from Various Sites

    Hi all -
    I'm sure many of you have saved stuff from many of these sites. I know that I have tons of stuff on one of my usb drives. In fact my Complete Greyhawk DVD Backup Collection is 13 Gigs (sure, it's got some dupes).

    On the GreyhawkOnline.com Web site we have lots of space to have files. For some reason it's eating up 3.5G of space right now and I don't know why. Mort's files aren't that big, so it must be Grodog's (I will be posting another forum for some good news about GHO and Grodog).
    But with a maybe clean up of the GHO site and such, maybe we can have a spot were there is just a folder for "stuff that's GH related" and is just a directory and people can download it real easily.
    Be Well. Be Well Archived.
    Theocrat Issak
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    Theocrat Issak
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    Thu May 28, 2009 11:05 am  

    Well, if things continue to remain desperate, I'll take up hosting costs again, Issak. I also purged some old (and, um, LARGE) video files I found, so that may help shave some GB off of my load....
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    Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
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    Fri May 29, 2009 6:18 pm  

    Hi Grodog,

    I used to run a website called Virtual Fantasy, and it was an FR site, and one of the goals was to archive and preserve FR lore.

    [I know it's been mentioned before in this thread]

    I would recommend that you contact the folks at

    archive.org

    explain that you're an admin at a (the!) GH site,
    and ask to see what they can do, etc.

    Sometimes they do preserve images, but not all time ...

    A lot of the geocities stuff seems to get preserved there (if we're lucky, all of it).

    From my years of FR experience online, I can definitely attest to the quality of some of the things that appear on the net for imaginary worlds : for those that appreciate it, it's definitely worth preserving.

    I'm doing detail work on A1-4 right now, so hopefully someone else makes a check at archive.org (TIA).

    Hopefully, this saves someone a lot of time ...

    Good luck,

    John
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    Fri May 29, 2009 6:26 pm  

    TheocratIssak wrote:

    I just paid the last $30 for hosting for the month and this is likely the last that I can do it without further support.


    !!

    Shouldn't be that high for most sites.

    I used to run on bluehost.com , and they are well under 10$ per month. The only problem is that they want to sign you into a contract. From what I remember, it was a nice service ... maybe there's something better out there (big world, probably is).

    Would be interesting to hear what others thing (yes, technical stuff, but hopefully utimately GH related, or, GH enabling, to be more precise).

    Good luck,

    John

    modheaven7@gmail.com
    Site Theocrat

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    Fri May 29, 2009 10:50 pm  
    Why GHO is special

    Hi all -
    The reason for the higher cost is because GHO isn't the only hosted site. I have a "reseller" package from my host, which is normally not offered, and the package that I get is a whole lot cheaper than the ones that they do offer. My host is Woolnet.net - the 4G/100G is $36/month. It is this that allows me to have as many domain names that I want, as many sub-domains and all sorts of cool stuff that I don't know how to actually us. So if you wanted, I could host your own www.YourOwnSite.info under my account - saving you hosting money (or paying me a couple bucks).

    I not only have GreyhawkOnline.com, but I have ThePale.org, OerthJournal.com, GolarionOnline.com, SyberWerks.net (supposed to be for Cyberpunk 2020/CyberNET OGL), and a few others. For all this I get 10Gigs of Space and 100Gigs of download bandwidth per month.
    Check around and for that you'll not get much cheaper. When the OJ is put out I up the download bandwidth and Rick uses it all (more than 30G on average, with new issues).
    The GHO site had more than 5G of space at one point, but it's now at nearly 3G. This is because not only are there the sites that are listed on the front page (which I really need to figure out Dreamweaver, it's harder than I thought), but several more. Icarus has several of his pictures on the site as well - and I'd hoped he'd upload more as well - and they are large overall.
    So overall, the cost is higher than normal. But he gave me the price about 7 years ago (and it was a steal then too for 10G of space).
    The "rent" is due on the 20th of each month and I currently have $8 in the paypal bank for next month. When Grodog, Faustwer, Anced_Math and others have sent money my way it only goes toward the hosting fees. I don't do anything else with it.
    You can send money to Theocrat of GreyhawkOnline.com or even Theocrat of ThePale.org or even Issak of ThePale.org.
    Be Well. Be Well Hosted.
    Theocrat Issak
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    Theocrat Issak
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    Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:42 pm  

    The Greyhawkonline.com site has been updated! Cool

    A "Donate" button via PayPal has been added for all those who want to contribute to keep the site up and running. Some links have been rearranged and there's also a new link to Bryan's heraldry page.

    Saludos!
    Gabriel
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    Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:18 am  

    I donated. How about you put a similar button on each hosted homepage? Or at least make an announcement in a sticky message.
    Site Theocrat

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    Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:13 am  
    GHO forever

    Hi all -
    Thank you Carlanco for modifying the front page. I think we'll need to re-edit it to add Icarus's site.
    I do appreciate the donations. I don't know if we can/should post a donation link on the sub sites - although they likely receive much more visual presentation than GHO itself. I usually just go visit WoG comic and not use the front page. So if having a donation link on Mort's WoG comic site is OK with him, then it's fine by me. Same with OerthJournal.com. Although Rick seems to be out at the moment, so I'll have to ask him. My only concern is that I don't want to have people thinking that they're donating to Mort if it's on the WoG Comic site when its going to paying for the hosting. I wouldn't want people to think they're giving to a great creator when they're just giving to a lazy bastard that didn't want to scour the Web for great Greyhawk stuff!
    Back to the main topic, is it plausable for us to have a directory for cool Greyhawk stuff that is obviously copy written, but is important Greyhawk stuff and to have it uploaded for easy download? I'd create a directory of Greyhawk goodness - maps, pictures and such that I don't know who created it - and just hope that if the creator notices it is OK. In which we'd either remove the documents and or post credit (which I'm OK with, since having good Greyhawk stuff is important).
    What do you all think?
    Be Well. Be Well Hosted.
    Theocrat Issak
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    Theocrat Issak
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    Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:43 pm  

    Best not maintain a donate button on the sub-sites as it implies payment for IP protected content. I've heard of problems with this on other sites. Keeping it as a main site link seems the more accepted way of doing things so far as maintenance goes. I suggest looking into this a bit more to find out the particulars.
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    Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:51 pm  

    What Cebrion said. Otherwise I'll try and play ball with any ideas that are legal.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:11 pm  

    Hey Theocrat,

    if it's got unlimited subdomains, I'd be interested in signing on for a while, but is there an option for password protected subdomains?

    i have 3 'sites' offline.

    1. I would need a very small subdomain for my business, Mod Heaven (basically, selling mods : a big thank you to those who have checked out my auctions!). The
    more important thing about this small site is 'the back room' : pages from 'A to Z'. For example, A covers A1, A2, A3, A4, B the B series, etc. Of course, this
    section of the site is just game-related. It was an OK reference which was originally a personal project hidden away on the Virtual Fantasy site, but I still need a few
    more months to clean this one up (fixing dead links), etc.
    -- 2 Megs, 104 files (estimate)

    [2.] There is the Virtual Fantasy site. Actually, I'm not that interested in seeing it online right now (it was a Forgotten Realms index site, and it was well-received), as
    I can't give it the attention it deserves. (Maybe ignore [2], although from the point of view of world-creation in general, it still might be of inspirational value).
    VF was done with
    a) Netscape Composer 4.7
    b) Photoshop (College access)
    c) Dreamweaver (College access)
    on a T3 connection
    -- 92 Megs, 4200 files (estimate)

    [3.] I'm working on .html versions of the 1E handbooks. These I would definitely need pw-protected, for copyright reasons. Of course, I would hope that a few
    others, with a (hopefully) a interest in further creation, would have access, as well. This is a personal project, done for love (obsession) of the game, and the last
    thing I would want is for it to be open access on the web, and have to waste a lot of time and money (both mine and Wizards) clearing that situation up. After things
    are done (MM & PH & DMG are 'done', and I am working on MM2 statblocks now), I would like to have a copy preserved for future archive purposes (yes,
    copyright does run out in 100 years) ... eventually, I'm looking towards another version that has full integration with all other 1E _rule_ sources (primarily, Dragon
    magazine). From there, and perhaps simultaneously, source code that 'mirrors' the .html, perhaps written in C# (I am a big fan of Unlimited Adventures), usable for
    both computer and tabletop gaming (it would be nice to see generators for a lot of things (eg. Monster Manual (Men), DMG.B, the list goes on and on, and that's
    not even touching on the WSG stuff, and to have these things integrated as much as possible, albeit in a modular way.). I could go on for pages on what I'd like to
    do, but it's better to get that MM2 off the shelf ...
    (I've got a lot to do with the Mod Heaven site, but I still need to discipline myself to work on the .html 1E a little bit *every day*.)
    I'm using
    a) Netscape Navigator 4.8
    b) Will need Photoshop (or Elements) for some things
    c) Dreamweaver : Is there an old version for free out there?
    The version I was using a few years back didn't seem so bad, and I would love to get back to it one day.
    My basic approach is to lay in the design with Netscape Composer, and then do finishing work with Dreamweaver.
    -- 186 Megs, 3700 files (estimate, has got a little bigger)

    (They're estimates because 1 and 3 are still in creation (2 is in hiatus, but there's probably a bit I could trim, nothing to add right now though) : redundant files get
    cleared, and new ones get added, etc.)

    You've got 10G of space : all of the above would be 3 subdomains and 0.3 G.
    I can guarantee 5$ a month for the next 2 years,
    plus bailout help once a year if others have to sign off (in the sense of me giving my word on this : I hope I could be of more assistance if it was required),
    as well something from my personal GH collection for you, (as long as it isn't 1E, as I'm working with that stuff right now, but some of the 2E stuff is pretty hard to
    find) as a show of good faith : as well, it would be an honour to see that in your hands, for all the great things you've done for GH gamers out there.
    (I'm just in my first year of business, and clearing out huge (for me) debts, so 5$ might not be huge, but that, and that you know you can call on me for bailout help
    once a year ... hey, at least it's steady).

    I've just sent through 5$. Whether you let me use some subdomains and some space, hey, that's up to you, and I respect your decision either way.

    Are we covered yet for this month?

    Thanks,

    John
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    Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:20 pm  

    mortellan wrote:
    Very strange that Geocities is shutting down. I guess it was ahead of it's time. I thought online storage was the wave of the future? Is Yahoo losing it's swagger?


    They want everyone to upgrade to their paid hosting plans. It says so on their pages explaining the closings.

    At least they are giving a lot more heads up than AOL did when they nuked the hometown sites.

    I think the days of free webhosts are numbered, Im glad we have folks like Theocrat offering to host for those who can't afford or simply dont want to pay for hosting.
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    Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:45 pm  
    Upping to a Directory Near You

    Hi all -
    Hey Rich, good to see you piping in here. Been a long time.
    Wondering if you'll mind if I upload some of the works you've done (that I know about/know is yours) to a directory on GreyhawkOnline.com just for downloads. Like your MystaraOerth map. I likely have a few of your other works, like PDF's of stuff, but I don't really know. If that map is uploaded would you mind? I wouldn't be putting any name stuff up - it would just be a generic directory - so the only recognition you'd get is whatever you put on the map or any PDF document (although I don't know if I have any of yours in particular).
    I'm really just using you as a base line. What and how you feel is usually a little to the far right (damn conservatives always thinking us commie bastards are out to take your gun [only because it's better than my own]). If you and the Heathen Samwise are OK with things like a generic directory for downloading then maybe several others are.
    One thing we might want to see about getting is the Hate Rose Estes Page from Erik Mona. Is it still around? I remember it was with the original Oerth Journal Web site. That is something to be preserved.
    Be Well. Be Well Directed.
    Theocrat Issak

    PS. Prespos - I sent you a PM with some start up directions and to e-mail me so that I can get a site started for you. I haven't received anything yet.
    Theocrat Issak
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    Theocrat Issak
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    Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:05 pm  
    Re: Upping to a Directory Near You

    TheocratIssak wrote:
    I likely have a few of your other works, like PDF's of stuff, but I don't really know. If that map is uploaded would you mind? I wouldn't be putting any name stuff up - it would just be a generic directory - so the only recognition you'd get is whatever you put on the map or any PDF document (although I don't know if I have any of yours in particular).


    In the context of a generic directory (a text only HTML page, I assume?) I don't have a problem with archiving anything I've got floating around out there.

    On the other hand, reuse in a more organized/ordered presentation, like articles or forum posts here or elsewhere, I'd prefer a bit more concrete heads up on what's being used and how author credits (for me and anyone else involved) are being presented.

    I've pretty much moved on from writing GH stuff, but don't object to existing things being archived as long as noone's taking credit for it, which I trust isn't your intent, so go for it. Just drop me a pm or email letting know where the stuff is, some of my docs got lost or orphaned out there and no longer exist in my own archives.
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    From: Cooke City, MT, USA

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    Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:11 pm  
    Re: GH web lore preservation - geocities closing down

    grodog wrote:

    Given that CF! has already archived the old Codex of GH site, I propose that we do that same with these sites as well.


    Over the years, I've used offline browser/webspider/site mirror/whatever you want to call it software to batch download any and all sites I found interesting. I've got, literally, gigs of data on the external drive from little sites like these.

    Problem is ....
    Wink

    I haven't been very careful or particular about my archives, and most, if not all, of the documents, images, html files, etc are just dumped in a big folder labeled "net stuff".

    Trying to catalog everything by where it came from and who authorship belongs to would be a daunting, if not impossible task.

    So, my offer is limited to this, if someone is looking for something in particular, and can provide a title, author or a sentence or two from the text, I can run desktop search on my archive folders and try and find it. As for contributing organized archives of specific sites however, I'm not much help.
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    CF Admin

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
    Posts: 1442
    From: Wichita, KS, USA

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    Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:48 pm  

    Issak---

    How's the hosting going???
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    Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
    http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Dec 07, 2003
    Posts: 636


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    Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:54 am  
    Re: GH web lore preservation - geocities closing down

    [quote="chatdemon"]
    grodog wrote:
    Trying to catalog everything by where it came from and who authorship belongs to would be a daunting, if not impossible task.


    I have a similar problem with my home made gazeteers. I started out with good intentions but over the years I ripped off great chunks of published material, cut and pasted work from Oerth Journals, Canonfire articles, and LG adventures, and gave up on the bibliography as it was hard enough cross-referencing the material itself.

    I reckon I'm only about a tenth done as it is. Maybe in 15 years' time I will be able to go back to the start and re-write everything for release when I'm 90. Nobody will sue a dead man.
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