Signup
Welcome to... Canonfire! World of GreyhawK
Features
Postcards from the Flanaess
Adventures
in Greyhawk
Cities of
Oerth
Deadly
Denizens
Jason Zavoda Presents
The Gord Novels
Greyhawk Wiki
#greytalk
JOIN THE CHAT
ON DISCORD
    Canonfire :: View topic - The Etymology of Tharizdun
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    The Etymology of Tharizdun
    Author Message
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


    Send private message
    Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:12 am  
    The Etymology of Tharizdun

    I have an article submission by this title in the que but I thought I would offer a preview. Not sure anyone has done this previously but what the heck. Enjoy (hopefully). Smile

    Who or what, precisely, is Tharizdun? The etymology of the name offers some interesting suggestions and associations.

    Suggestions

    Tharizdun consists of three roots - thar-iz-dun – each of which can be traced etymologically.

    “Thar” in Old English means “need.” “Dun” similarly implies “dark.” “Iz” is the most difficult root to trace but can mean either a corrupted (fittingly) form of “its” or can mean “essence.”

    Tharizdun, literally translated from its etymological roots, could thus mean:

    “Dark Need” or “The Dark Need” – with “iz” signaling only a personification

    “Its Dark Need” – more literally and suggesting Tharizdun may be merely a manifestation of a greater or universal “dark need”

    “The Essence of Dark Needs” – again suggesting a personification but also a universality

    “The Dark Need for Essence” – reversed from above and suggesting a dark “hunger” for being or existence

    Other transliterations, particularly with respect to “essence,” are certainly possible but a certain picture emerges. “Dark” signals woe more than any “weal.” “Need” suggests a “drive” or “hunger.” Together any reading of “Tharizdun” is not a hopeful one. “Iz,” once more, is the most problematic element and, together with the reading of “-dun” can turn the reading of “Tharizdun” from the merely unsettling, to the terrifying.

    In the seminal “Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun,” the god is given the epithet “He of Eternal Darkness.” This in-line with the above with “iz” transliterated as “he,” “Thar” transliterated as “darkness,” and “dun” transliterated as “eternal,” an arguable conceptualization of “essence.”

    The article submission takes up the pen from here for much more. Smile
    _________________
    GVD
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 25, 2007
    Posts: 951
    From: Neck Deep in the Viscounty of Verbobonc

    Send private message
    Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:12 am  

    But how does this apply to the older (and original) form of his name: "Tharzduun"?
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


    Send private message
    Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:27 pm  

    bubbagump wrote:
    But how does this apply to the older (and original) form of his name: "Tharzduun"?


    Do you have a source for "Tharzduun?" I went strictly with the published material.

    However, there is not much difference as the roots are still there, albeit in a modified form.

    Instead of - thar-iz-dun - we would have - thar-z-duun. The initial roots remain the same - "thar." The secondary root would be contracted to "z" instead of "iz." And the final root would be expanded to "duun" from "dun." There is a difference but one of obvious derivation and of not much distinction on its face.

    Essentially, "Tharzduun" woiuld seem either a primitive or corrupted version of "Tharizdun." That would make another useful variation. Smile

    As the seminal treatment of Tharizdun in published, roleplaying form is the The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun, I feel comfortyable saying that "Tharizdun" is the dominant form. I also say this because within the Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun, EGG effectively translates the name as "He of Eternal Darkness," which pretty neatly matches up with the Old English. If EGG similarly translated Tharzduun in a published, roleplaying product (or Gord novel for that matter), I am not immediately familiar with it and would appreciate being directed to it.

    It is certainly possible that Tharizdun's roots in Old English are entirely coincidence. However, they are sufficiently clear to cast some doubt on such a conclusion, IMO. Moreover, as is discussed in the article, there is an associative homophone that, IMO, almost certainly takes Tharizdun beyond the realm of coincidence or EGG creating him out of wholecloth. More of this to come. Smile

    But, please, can you point me to a source for Tharzduun? THanks! Smile
    _________________
    GVD
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Dec 06, 2003
    Posts: 85
    From: Torrance, Calif.

    Send private message
    Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:38 pm  

    I'm sure all his worshippers went mad thinking about stuff like this! Laughing
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 25, 2007
    Posts: 951
    From: Neck Deep in the Viscounty of Verbobonc

    Send private message
    Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:49 pm  

    I'm afraid I have no "real" canon for this. Rob Kuntz created the deity "Tharzduun", which EGG adopted and changed into "Tharizdun". The two versions are virtually identical, but much more has been done with EGG's version. I can't recall the exact source at the moment, but grodog's website has the information somewhere.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3287
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:04 pm  

    The deity in question was originally (pre-publication) known as Tharzdu'un.

    Do a Google search for "'Tharzdu'un Robert J. Kuntz" and the relevant PDF will turn up. It should be called "The Dark God: Historical Content, Developer Commentary, and an Ode to the Dark God."
    CF Admin

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
    Posts: 1445
    From: Wichita, KS, USA

    Send private message
    Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:04 pm  

    Yep: it's a DL on CF! @ http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=getit&lid=92
    _________________
    Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
    http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


    Send private message
    Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:08 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    The deity in question was originally (pre-publication) known as Tharzdu'un.

    Do a Google search for "'Tharzdu'un Robert J. Kuntz" and the relevant PDF will turn up. It should be called "The Dark God: Historical Content, Developer Commentary, and an Ode to the Dark God."


    Thanks, Rasgon!

    I am puzzled, however, after reading RLK’s account. Perhaps, I am misreading or just missing something.

    RJK states, “When the “Temple of Tharizdun” was published by my good friend Gary Gygax he thanked me in the credits for inspiration regarding some of that module’s conceptual content.”

    I don’t see this. What I see in The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun is merely a “special thanks” to RJK. It says nothing about crediting RJK for his inspiration. As RJK co-DMed GH with EGG, the “special thanks” could mean virtually anything or nothing.

    RJK goes on to state,” In 1982 I created a fictional, evil subterranean god, an alien being of dimensional bent, not of the world, who was captured by the gods soon after his arrival upon it. His titles were many: Dark One, Lord of Nightmares, Eldest from the Outer Void, and others. His name, as conceived then, was simply Tharzdu’un (Tharz-du-Un). . . . With the advent of Tharizdun in WG4 I ceased expanding upon my Dark God. . . . With the publication of my Dark Druids module (Troll Lord Games, 2002) I revisited the Myth of the Dark God, outlining his extended history as carried forward from where I left off. It is in no large way different from what Gary saw and expanded on in 1984, something I felt then was a great treatment of the matter by himself.”

    I own Dark Druids from Troll Lords and I do not see any reference to Tharzdu’un. Rather, I see reference to N’Threxus, who is a “demon lord” and looks like a skeletal deer or elk and is involved with plant-type demons. Not likely any inspiration for Tharizdun.

    In short, on two objective points, RLK’s account seems factually lacking.

    If I had to presently characterize RJK’s account of Tharizdun, I would say it is unsupported anecdote that cannot be taken as accurate let alone canon.

    What am I missing?

    Unless I am missing something, it appears I must either a) accept the evidence of my senses or b) believe RJK. In such case, as neither The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun nor Dark Druids appear as RJK says they are, I must go with my senses.

    Little help? Anybody?
    _________________
    GVD
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3287
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:42 pm  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    RJK states, “When the “Temple of Tharizdun” was published by my good friend Gary Gygax he thanked me in the credits for inspiration regarding some of that module’s conceptual content.”

    I don’t see this. What I see in The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun is merely a “special thanks” to RJK. It says nothing about crediting RJK for his inspiration. As RJK co-DMed GH with EGG, the “special thanks” could mean virtually anything or nothing.


    True, but I'm willing to take him at his word that the "special thanks" were in regards to Tharizdun/Tharzdu'un. I don't see any profit gained from doubting him.

    Gygax is tragically not around to ask anymore, although he may have said something at the time.

    Quote:
    I own Dark Druids from Troll Lords and I do not see any reference to Tharzdu’un. Rather, I see reference to N’Threxus, who is a “demon lord” and looks like a skeletal deer or elk and is involved with plant-type demons. Not likely any inspiration for Tharizdun.


    The PDF includes a quotation from page 15 of the module. I don't have it to check, but is the quote actually in there? If so, that's what he was talking about.

    The purpose of the PDF seems to be to explain what he intended by certain obscure references in the module. He doesn't claim to have mentioned Tharzdu'un by name in the module itself.

    Quote:
    If I had to presently characterize RJK’s account of Tharizdun, I would say it is unsupported anecdote that cannot be taken as accurate let alone canon.


    It's not WotC canon (because WotC doesn't own it), and I personally am not fond of the Tharizdun/Tarrasque connection, but I don't see any reason to assume he was lying about it. I like the idea that the god of magic (Boccob, or perhaps a predecessor) was involved with Tharizdun's ensnarement, but I'd personally ignore the references to the Tarrasque.

    It's perhaps not coincidental that the imprisoned god in Paizo's Pathfinder setting is similarly connected to the Tarrasque, however.

    If you're worried that Kuntz's document will be perceived as invalidating your upcoming article, I wouldn't. It's another take on the deity, that's all, and nobody's bound by it.
    CF Admin

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
    Posts: 1445
    From: Wichita, KS, USA

    Send private message
    Thu Jul 09, 2009 4:23 pm  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    RJK states, “When the “Temple of Tharizdun” was published by my good friend Gary Gygax he thanked me in the credits for inspiration regarding some of that module’s conceptual content.”

    I don’t see this. What I see in The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun is merely a “special thanks” to RJK. It says nothing about crediting RJK for his inspiration. As RJK co-DMed GH with EGG, the “special thanks” could mean virtually anything or nothing.


    That's correct GVD, and a "Special Thanks" credit was standard operating procedure for Gary and TSR when inspiration and/or content was drawn from another person: see Alan Lucien on the S1 cover blurb, the many folks thanked in the PHB (including the original inventors for the Ranger, Illusionist, and Bard---although not the Thief), the folks thanked in Greyhawk: Supplement 1, etc., etc.

    GVDammerung wrote:
    RJK goes on to state,” In 1982 I created a fictional, evil subterranean god, an alien being of dimensional bent, not of the world, who was captured by the gods soon after his arrival upon it. His titles were many: Dark One, Lord of Nightmares, Eldest from the Outer Void, and others. His name, as conceived then, was simply Tharzdu’un (Tharz-du-Un). . . . With the advent of Tharizdun in WG4 I ceased expanding upon my Dark God. . . . With the publication of my Dark Druids module (Troll Lord Games, 2002) I revisited the Myth of the Dark God, outlining his extended history as carried forward from where I left off. It is in no large way different from what Gary saw and expanded on in 1984, something I felt then was a great treatment of the matter by himself.”

    I own Dark Druids from Troll Lords and I do not see any reference to Tharzdu’un. Rather, I see reference to N’Threxus, who is a “demon lord” and looks like a skeletal deer or elk and is involved with plant-type demons. Not likely any inspiration for Tharizdun.


    The conceived, but unpublished later modules in the series, tie more directly to Tharizdun/Tharzdu'un:

    RJK in concluding pages of Dark Druids wrote:

    Dark Quest Series (Capsules)

    Part 1 — Dark Druids: Against the fanatic cult that believes that the
    destruction of humankind will save the world!

    Part 2 — Claws in the Dark: Following the Dark God’s instructions, the players must navigate the River Nerex and pass a magical gauntlet imposed by an ancient bestial race bent upon their destruction.

    Part 3 — Black Heart: In seeking to deliver a token to the Dark God, the PCs must enter his prison tomb, wherein lies an ancient challenge and a doubtful ally.

    Part 4 — Revenant Sea: In their continuing quest to escape from the wiles of the Dark God, the players seek passage upon the Revenant Sea, where terrors from the past await them.

    Part 5 — Isle of Bronze: While seeking their final destination to reclaim their freedom from the Dark World in which they are trapped, the PCs arrive at the Isle of Bronze and come face to face with its strange inhabitants and a challenge which will test their abilities to the fullest.

    Part 6 — Vale of the Titans: To complete their quest and free themselves of the Dark World in which they are trapped, the players must challenge the champions of the gods themselves while completing a quest which could unleash a deadly force upon the world.


    Not sure if that helps at all from your POV, Glenn? Edit: RJK also expounds on this relationship further in the expanded version of Dark Druids, IIRC (available from PPP).

    GVDammerung wrote:
    If I had to presently characterize RJK’s account of Tharizdun, I would say it is unsupported anecdote that cannot be taken as accurate let alone canon.


    There are many pieces of lore that we know about only as anecdotes from Gary, Rob, Mike Mornard, Eric Shook, Skip Williams, and a plethora of other figures from the original play groups at Lake Geneva, the Twin Cities, and elsewhere. I don't see any special reason to doubt the veracity of Rob's Tharizdun account any more so than those that EGG and RJK penned in the "Up on a Soapbox" series in 3e-era Dragon, or other bits and pieces of apocryphal lore collected over the years.

    Or, am I missing your point??
    _________________
    Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
    http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html


    Last edited by grodog on Thu Jul 09, 2009 4:51 pm; edited 2 times in total
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 03, 2009
    Posts: 74
    From: The Horned Society

    Send private message
    Thu Jul 09, 2009 4:23 pm  

    I bought this module on eBay not long ago,someone slapped a dumb vending machine sticker of a cobra on it,which is now permanantly attached to the cover.Sticker looks nice though,sort of like the cobra-kai insignia from karate kid.
    CF Admin

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
    Posts: 1445
    From: Wichita, KS, USA

    Send private message
    Thu Jul 09, 2009 4:44 pm  

    Lighter fluid, goo-b-gone, or another similar solvent should remove the sticker nicely.
    _________________
    Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
    http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html
    Forum Moderator

    Joined: Feb 26, 2004
    Posts: 2586
    From: Ullinois

    Send private message
    Thu Jul 09, 2009 6:28 pm  

    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


    Send private message
    Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:16 pm  

    I don’t mean to question RJK’s veracity.

    It is more a question, IMO, of objective, verifiable support (for anything) coupled with the sometimes conflicting nature of some of the stories/rememberances of different members of the old TSR crew (e.g, Skip Williams and EGG and the GH world map). If possible, I would prefer not to take material solely at face value but to have it objectively supported, although I freely concede that is not always possible.

    Publishing for a fee, in any form, raises anecdote to something more solid, IMO.

    In any event, as submitted, my article is not really impacted. Tharzdu’un never made it to print. It is then contrary to my notion that etymology enlightens Tharizdun’s absolute origin but does not impact the etymological “coincidences” in print that yet remain and which a GH DM can leverage if they were to so choose.

    I must say though, the coincidences are most “striking.” EGG, then, accidently transliterated a made up name, Tharzdu’un, into one, Tharizdun, that can be transliterated further from Old English. And he did it in a way that created a rather obvious (even notorious) homophone. Possible. But sure is odd.
    _________________
    GVD
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


    Send private message
    Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:18 pm  

    Mort and Tharizdun GH strips. Like peanut butter and chocolate - two great tastes that taste great together! Mort wins the thread! Laughing
    _________________
    GVD
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 25, 2007
    Posts: 951
    From: Neck Deep in the Viscounty of Verbobonc

    Send private message
    Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:48 pm  

    Yay! I finally got mentioned in a WoG comic strip! Does this mean I get a raise now? Can I start going to conventions now and walking around like some sort of celebrity?

    *(Please say yes. Please say yes. Please say yes.)*
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 17, 2004
    Posts: 40


    Send private message
    Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:04 pm  

    Not to crash the discussion or anything but in my version of greyhawk, my gamers are always stumbleing across plots and sub-plots of "He of the eternal darkness of whom all whisper his name in dread" his followers trying to free him from his prison.

    In fact one of my gamers is so scared of the thought of him getting free he'll actually disrupt a whole gameing session of hunting down the sub-plot and destroying it. I get loads of laughs from it and of course that constantly sets the group up for the ire of his dark majesty.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 03, 2009
    Posts: 74
    From: The Horned Society

    Send private message
    Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:55 am  

    Odd subject matter included but,did anyone notice that Tharizdun's followers are dressed like an equivilent of the KKK ( complete with burning torches.) on page one?If so,i've never heard anyone mention it even though i always thought so myself.I wonder if EGG ever got any flak about the art on page one?I think it's largely gone unnoticed all these years.Come to think of it,the scarlett brotherhood is loosely based on WWII germany and japan...so maybe there is something to it.....
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 13, 2008
    Posts: 563
    From: brazil

    Send private message
    Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:50 am  

    mortellan wrote:


    oh man, how could someone NOT love those guys...
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 03, 2009
    Posts: 74
    From: The Horned Society

    Send private message
    Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:48 am  

    Cobra sticker 'officially' immortalized!
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:53 am  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    RJK goes on to state,” In 1982 I created a fictional, evil subterranean god, . . . His name, as conceived then, was simply Tharzdu’un (Tharz-du-Un). . .


    Bubbagump's original question thus remains. RJK placed the "z" -- of our current "iz" -- within the first syllable of the name, rather than the second syllable, as was previously intimated.

    In addition, the third syllable -- "dun" -- is shown by RJK to be two distinct syllables, to wit; "du" and "Un," or "du-Un."

    I believe that the different syllabic breakdown would alter the supposed "roots" and thus, the etomology. Thar-iz-dun does not quite seem to equate with Tharz-du-Un.
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


    Send private message
    Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:15 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:

    I believe that the different syllabic breakdown would alter the supposed "roots" and thus, the etomology. Thar-iz-dun does not quite seem to equate with Tharz-du-Un.


    Absolutely. If "Tharzdu'un" is accepted as the source of "Tharizdun," one must throw out any etymology of "Tharizdun" as nothing but odd coincidence, as I noted above. How much "coincidence" is too much? YMMV.
    _________________
    GVD
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:40 am  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    If "Tharzdu'un" is accepted as the source of "Tharizdun," one must throw out any etymology of "Tharizdun" as nothing but odd coincidence, as I noted above.


    Not necessarily true, my friend! Shocked

    As I stated in a different thread; Thor, Zeus, Jupiter and Perenu were all the same God -- according to their descriptions/portfolios -- but had different names assigned them by different peoples. Wink

    The same could easily be said of Tharzdu'un. Perhaps it's simply an older name, used by an older people? The Ur-flan perhaps? Tharizdun could simply be the modern translation of Tharzdu'un into Common? Who can say? Confused

    Only GVDammerung can -- given that you're the Scholar/Sage writing the article! Cool
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 26, 2006
    Posts: 13
    From: Edinburgh, Scotland

    Send private message
    Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:48 pm  

    Quote:
    I like the idea that the god of magic (Boccob, or perhaps a predecessor) was involved with Tharizdun's ensnarement, but I'd personally ignore the references to the Tarrasque


    In my campaign Tharizdun 'is' Magic, who evolved from Mok'Slyk The Serpent (one of the Ancient Brethren) after an encounter with Asmodeus. Boccob helped with his imprisonment through fear that he would withdraw/lower the level of Magic on Oerth. Without Magic, Boccob is nothing.

    Basic outline is here:

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_LxFbDd7OKYU/SXOrwvmyxvI/AAAAAAAAAAs/ySV9crYzYJU/s1600-h/TheTheory+behind+Tharizdun+%26+Asmodeus.jpg

    Sorry, deviating from the thread.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 12, 2003
    Posts: 273
    From: Boston

    Send private message
    Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:40 pm  

    king_joshua wrote:
    Not to crash the discussion or anything but in my version of greyhawk, my gamers are always stumbleing across plots and sub-plots of "He of the eternal darkness of whom all whisper his name in dread" his followers trying to free him from his prison.

    In fact one of my gamers is so scared of the thought of him getting free he'll actually disrupt a whole gameing session of hunting down the sub-plot and destroying it. I get loads of laughs from it and of course that constantly sets the group up for the ire of his dark majesty.


    We of the LG BK triad often had fun threatening our players' characters with "purple damage" (it's easier and funnier to say than "violet damage"). This proved especially funny when running BDK5-08 Hirelings, during which the PCs encounter a party of Tharizdunian cultists on the road from Alhaster to Hallorn. Also, That Which Slept, the shadowy dragon referenced in my two recent postfest entries, has ties to Tharizdun. I'm pretty sure that at least once, we had TWS do "purple damage" to someone's PC.

    Re: the etymology of Tharizdun, the Living Greyhawk Deities document, v2.0, by Steven Conforti breaks Tharizdun down thusly: tha-RIZ-dun. Not sure if that impacts the analysis or not.

    Casey
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:18 pm  

    I suppose it would depend on the original language. After all, I hardly think that "Tharizdun" is Common. Confused

    For instance, we call the man "Hercules," which is the Latin translation. In Greek, he was called "Heracles." So, what's his name in English or French? We transliterate the name. "Jesus" is the English transliteration of the Greek name for Christ. He was Hebrew, a Jew, his Hebrew name actually translates as "Joshua," into English. Neutral

    Many of the words we use in American English are actually of Native American origin, yet we've adopted them to our everyday use quite well. I think this is an apt comparison. Smile

    So, the name "Tharizdun," what's the language? We pronounce several words -- in America -- differently than our cousins in England, and yet, both pronounciations are correct. Wink

    Anyone (Rasgon) know the language of origin for the name Tharizdun?
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Forum Moderator

    Joined: Feb 26, 2004
    Posts: 2586
    From: Ullinois

    Send private message
    Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:19 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Anyone (Rasgon) know the language of origin for the name Tharizdun?


    *snickers*

    Well we know that the Common tongue in Greyhawk is a mix of Ancient Baklunish and Old Oeridian. Assuming the 'setting books' are written in Common (and most places on the map are assuredly Old Oerid since they ruled half the continent at one time) then I'd guess Tharizdun is the current Common spelling.

    Origin wise Big T is supposed to be 'unknown' but we have strong evidence of Tharizdun in Sulm 2000 years ago and the Forgotten Temple (age?) was in the Yatils which I believe was Flan originally as well. Tharizdun also being a Greater God stands a good chance to have a Flan origin because much of his works are in the Flanaess to start, and second, he seems antithetical to two Greater Flan gods, Beory (Oerth vs Destruction) and Rao (Madness vs Reason).
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 25, 2007
    Posts: 951
    From: Neck Deep in the Viscounty of Verbobonc

    Send private message
    Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:40 pm  

    Obviously none of you are from the South. It's all quite obvious, really:

    "Tharizdun" breaks down into "thar" (= "there") + "iz" (= "it's") + "dun" (= "done"), or, "There, it's done."

    Similarly, "Tharzdu'un" breaks down into "thar" + "z" + "du'un" with the same syllabic equivalents.

    In other words, Rob Kuntz finished writing the original version of Dark Druids all those years ago having just returned from one of his rare extended trips south of the Mason-Dixon line, where he had picked up some of our beloved and beautiful accent. Since he drank heavily during the final phases of said writing, he also slurred his speech somewhat. Thus, upon penning the final word, he pronounced blearily, "Tharzdu'un," meaning, "There, it's done." The next day, somewhat sobered but still carrying the remains of a southern accent, he handed the manuscript to Gygax, pronouncing the syllables only somewhat more clearly. Gary, being somewhat hungover himself, simply misunderstood Rob, taking that as the name of the ultimate antagonist.
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:56 am  

    bubbagump wrote:
    Obviously none of you are from the South . . . Rob Kuntz finished writing the original version . . . returned from one of his rare extended trips south of the Mason-Dixon line . . .


    Being born and raised in New Orleans . . . I hang my head in shame at this obvious interpretation! Embarassed

    Bubbagump, gotta love ya man! Laughing Laughing Laughing

    "Snickers?" Mort! You smart aleck you! Laughing Laughing Laughing Next time I'll suggest you rather than Rasgon! That'll teach ya! Evil Grin

    But your supposition is why I suggested the possibility of the Ur-Flan. I still conjecture that the spelling/pronounciation, "Tharizdun," is a transliteration into Common from the language of His original followers/worshippers.

    Koine Greek, the language of the New Testament, spells the name "Ieous," but we transliterate that into "Jesus" in English. I'm suggesting the same thing here. The original language "Tharzdu'un" transliterates into "Tharizdun" in Oerth Common.

    The language of origin would thus supply the proper etimology of his name.

    Personally, I like where GVD is going with his paper and look forward to his publication of it. I sincerely hope he hasn't been discouraged from finishing it. Cool
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Site Theocrat

    Joined: Aug 15, 2003
    Posts: 235
    From: WoG 2.0

    Send private message
    Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:01 pm  
    GHO Hosted File

    Hi all -
    I know Rasgon listed the Google link for the file and then someone also hosted the CanonFire! hosted file link.
    This actually came from Rob Kuntz and Grodog a few years ago when GreyhawkOnline.com was set aside for hosting several files.
    The quick download link is:
    http://www.greyhawkonline.com/canonfire/CanonFire.com_Dark_%20God.pdf - I have a ton of other files on the CF folder - and is part of what I think I need to redo so that people can just download file like this. I'd like to collect even more and just offer them all up.

    Back to a related aspect of this thread, GVD, I'd like to know what sources you used for the etymology for the article. I have several History of American Language and Dictionary of Language books (back from my early Communication days) that I bought and was using as a reference for college as well as attempting to understand and utilize for use with D&D. I also attempted at looking at the universal language (and now I can't remember the name...I wanna say that it either starts with an N or an L - some Dr. /Scientist created this language in the hopes of creating a universal tongue that all people would understand). I looked at these things so that I could understand how Gygax and others like Tolkien came up with their languages (since Tolkien wrote Elvish).

    Otherwise this is a very interesting idea and Mort's comic is great...now if he'd just draw that sticker of too much knowledge the twins use for us to see, we could all use it.

    Be Well. Be Well Knowledgeable.
    Theocrat Issak
    _________________
    Theocrat Issak
    Display posts from previous:   
       Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion All times are GMT - 8 Hours
    Page 1 of 1

    Jump to:  

    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot vote in polls in this forum




    Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises

    Contact the Webmaster.  Long Live Spidasa!


    Greyhawk Gothic Font by Darlene Pekul is used under the Creative Commons License.

    PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.
    Page Generation: 0.33 Seconds