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    Adept Greytalker

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    Wed Aug 19, 2009 12:12 pm  
    The Paladin-King of Miro: a likely candidate

    Recently, while combing through Die Vecna Die!, I found a very interesting tidbit that may identify the Paladin King of Miro (AKA Miro the Paladin-King), and the period during which he lived.

    Pages 108-109 of DVD, area 60c of Vecna’s palace in Citadel Cavitius, has an encounter with a radiant spirit who was once a paladin. The spirit has gone mad, & cannot remember his name or deity. For simplicity’s sake, I’ll refer to him as the “radiant paladin.” This paladin once served a “Prelate Verlamis,” who is identified as “the leader of an ancient lawful good coalition that centuries ago launched crusades against many evil religions.”

    While “centuries” implies at least 200 years, DVD also mentions that the Prelate sent the radiant paladin on his mission to recover the Sword of Kas from Cavitius “many decades ago” (p. 109). While measuring the same timespan in both decades & centuries is unusual, it is believable that some people might do so for small spans of only a few centuries.

    As for Prelate Verlamis, since the Theocracy of the Pale seems to be the only state in the Flanaess that commonly uses the title “prelate” (LGG, 80, 81, 82), it seems quite plausible that he may have been one of the nine prelates that report to the Theocrat. As the Pale was established in 342 CY (LGG, 82), Verlamis would have to had launched his crusades between that time and 391 CY (Die Vecna Die! takes place in 591 CY) in order for them to have occurred “centuries ago.” Additionally, the words of the radiant paladin himself seem very Pholtine in character: “The pureness of my soul blazes like a sun against the evil taint of this place!” (DVD, 108).

    DVD states that Verlamis claimed that Vecna could only be slain by the Sword of Kas wielded in the Hand of Vecna (p. 108-109). The radiant paladin “had fully intended to sever his own left hand and attach the Hand of Vecna to his wrist” (DVD, 109) once the Sword of Kas was recovered from Cavitius, but Vecna’s forces in Cavitius slew the entire invading force, save for the paladin & his squire. The radiant paladin prevented the worst by sending his squire from Cavitius with the Hand “so it would not fall into the hands of the minions of evil” (DVD, 109), while he himself pressed on in search of the Sword, which he failed to find.

    I think that this unnamed squire makes a very good candidate for the Paladin-King of Miro, for a number of reasons:

    1. He was in possession of the Hand.

    2. As a paladin’s squire, it was likely that he was a paladin himself.

    3. If indeed Verlamis was a Prelate of the Pale, the squire fits the timeline. Note that Vecna Lives! states that the Paladin-King was the last known to possess the Hand before Halmadar the Cruel (VL, 22; see also Book of Artifacts, 35), who came into possession of the Hand and Eye in 420 CY (LGG, 104).

    4. This theory also fits the location, as the Pale is west of the Blemu Hills (the Gnomelord of Blemu possessed the Hand before the Paladin-King–see VL, 22), & east of Halmadar’s realm near Delcomben (LGG, 104).

    I therefore postulate that the following may have occurred after the radiant paladin’s squire returned to Oerth:

    Not being as strong-willed as his master, the squire is “corrupted by the power of the Hand” (BoA, 35), and seeks to establish a power base. Not having the resources at hand to take on the Pale, Tenh, or Nyrond, he heads for easier pickings to the west, probably something in the Combination of Free Lords (possibly even land west of the Ritensa–note that this is prior to Iuz’s birth or the Horned Society’s rise).

    The Paladin-King may have eventually been slain, and his holdings taken, by Halmadar the Cruel (who may have already acquired the Eye of Vecna by that time) around 420 CY.

    Thoughts? Anyone have a better candidate?


    BTW, I also have a candidate for Vecna II of Tyrus (the elven host of the artifacts in Citadel Cavitius who is convinced he is actually Vecna–see Vecna Lives!–p. 22, 65), but that one’s harder to pin down.
    GreySage

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    Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:28 pm  
    Re: The Paladin-King of Miro: a likely candidate

    Robbastard wrote:
    2. As a paladin’s squire, it was likely that he was a paladin himself.


    Do you mean to imply that "he" later became a Paladin? Confused

    If we're using real world titles as a basis, (as was true in the beginning) then Paladin is the highest form of knighthood. "Squire" is an official title and position, but he ranks below a knight and is a servant thereof. A person was not a "squire" after achieving knighthood.

    One knight could serve another knight as his "man at arms," if the one was a greater/higher ranking knight, but this one did not serve as the other's "squire," nor was he called such.
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    Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:07 pm  
    Re: The Paladin-King of Miro: a likely candidate

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Robbastard wrote:
    2. As a paladin’s squire, it was likely that he was a paladin himself.


    Do you mean to imply that "he" later became a Paladin? Confused

    If we're using real world titles as a basis, (as was true in the beginning) then Paladin is the highest form of knighthood. "Squire" is an official title and position, but he ranks below a knight and is a servant thereof. A person was not a "squire" after achieving knighthood.

    One knight could serve another knight as his "man at arms," if the one was a greater/higher ranking knight, but this one did not serve as the other's "squire," nor was he called such.


    No, I'm speaking of the class (this is D&D we're talking about).

    Furthermore, "paladin" is not a title used in medieval chivalric orders whatsoever. Strictly speaking, "paladin" refers to the 12 peers of Charlemagne, who were largely fictional characters appearing in the Carolingian cycle.
    GreySage

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    Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:01 pm  
    Re: The Paladin-King of Miro: a likely candidate

    Robbastard wrote:
    No, I'm speaking of the class (this is D&D we're talking about) . . . Strictly speaking, "paladin" refers to the 12 peers of Charlemagne, who were largely fictional characters appearing in the Carolingian cycle.


    Roland and his compatriots did spring to mind. And I point out that there is evidence that Hruodland, Prefect of the Marches of Brittany, a.k.a. Roland, was a real person and not ficitional.

    But you have clarified your position, putting it into "gaming" terminology. With that point in mind . . .

    I like your take on this. Your surmise is well thought out and is resting upon a solid foundation. Therefore, I support your Squire's candidacy. (Not that you need my support)

    Working it out the way you have leads me to say that I've never seen another character with a stronger claim to the role.

    And keep working on Vecna II of Tyrus. Cool
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    GreySage

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    Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:52 pm  
    Re: The Paladin-King of Miro: a likely candidate

    Robbastard wrote:
    As for Prelate Verlamis, since the Theocracy of the Pale seems to be the only state in the Flanaess that commonly uses the title “prelate” (LGG, 80, 81, 82)


    Well, there's also the Prelacy of Almor. Or was, anyway, in the time of Verlamis.

    If Verlamis was "the leader of an ancient lawful good coalition," as opposed to merely one of nine leaders, he must have been more than merely one of the Council of the Nine (although he may have been that as well), but also the leader of some order with the means to send paladins to other planes (because Cavitius was, at the time, located on the Quasielemental Plane of Ash). If he was a prelate of the Pale, he might have been the head of the Lords of the Gloaming. The Whiteguard might also be a possibility, though we know little of that. If, contrary to your speculations, Verlamis lived in Almor or elsewhere, he might have been the leader of Heironeous's Order of the Chalice. But, of course, if he was the Prelate of Almor, Almor probably qualifies as an ancient lawful good coalition in itself.

    Anyway, the strength of your theory lies in the fact that the radiant paladin's squire was probably a paladin (albeit a low-level one), and he was certainly a possessor of the Hand of Vecna. If he wasn't yet a paladin (perhaps this is an honor only bestowed by the gods when the squire becomes a knight), he may well have become one anyway. If he became known as the Paladin-King and attracted a number of followers, it may have been some time before he was corrupted by the Hand. He may have kept it stored away for years, not touching it, until he finally decided he might do some good with it, perhaps desiring to complete his master's quest before the Hand decided otherwise. However, I suspect that the squire was a lower-level paladin, skilled enough to survive an expedition against a legendary lich in his own stronghold on one of the most deadly planes in the multiverse and return to tell the tale but not yet formally invested with knighthood.

    I'm reluctant, however, to contradict Samwise's article on the history of the Hand and Eye too much, which offers a different history of the Paladin-King, if only because Samwise's article is so well done. Samwise notes that in his dating, the Hand and Eye appeared regularly, approximately every 150 years, and I'd like to keep that. In that spirit, if the radiant paladin's squire is identified with the future Paladin-King, I'd rather attempt to reconcile the two versions. Perhaps the Radiant Paladin discovered the Hand among the effects of the deposed Holy Censor of Medegia and decided to bring it to the Knights of the Gloaming, who suggested it be used to destroy the fearsome lich associated with it once and for all.

    The main problem I see with this scenario is that Vecna's disembodied will was supposed to have drifted for "untold centuries" (VL, page 7) before reforming as a demigod. This is vague, and 252 CY is certainly centuries after Vecna's fall in approximately -375 CY, but the "untold" part makes me a bit cautious in making Vecna too active too early.

    It's also possible that the Hand (and perhaps the Eye as well) passed directly from the defeated Gnomelord to the possession of the Lords of the Gloaming, who may have even played a part in the Gnomelord's defeat, and kept it for centuries until they determined what it was, that it could be used to defeat its creator, and the location of its creator's stronghold. Or it might have rested with the Holy Censor of Medegia until 252 CY and passed on to the Lords of the Gloaming later on.

    The Paladin-King could also be a successor of the radiant paladin's squire, of course. having inherited the artifact from his master.

    Quote:
    The Paladin-King may have eventually been slain, and his holdings taken, by Halmadar the Cruel (who may have already acquired the Eye of Vecna by that time) around 420 CY.


    Samwise connects the Paladin-King to the corrupted cult of Pholtus in Dimre. If you set Miro in the Bandit Kingdoms, Dimre sounds like a good place for it. If Miro itself was in Dimre (rather than in Tenh, where Samwise put it), that makes the connection even stronger.
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    Wed Aug 19, 2009 6:29 pm  

    Ah, I hadn't considered Almor, Rip--I can always count on your encyclopedic knowledge for things I overlook.

    While Samwise's article is certainly good, it does contradict canon in assuming that the Eye and Hand were always together.

    The Book of Artifacts, written by Vecna Lives! author David Cook, states that the Hand was used by Paddin the Vain (to start the Innsurrection of the Yaheetes), Vecna II, & "Miro the Paladin-King" (called the Paladin-King of Miro in VL, p. 22). The BoA also states that the Eye "was instrumental in the extermination of the house of Hyeric, once the ruling dynasty in Nyrond" (p. 35).

    I'm assuming Sam did not have the Book of Artifacts available to him when he wrote his timeline, and p. 22 of Vecna Lives! does seem to imply that the artifacts were always together.

    However, page 70 of VL states: "One great secret of the Eye and the Hand is the existence of additional powers when the two artifacts are brought together. So little is known of this because it has almost never happened, no more than twice in the entire history of the two artifacts. Of those instances, few records remain."

    Die Vecna Die! also mentions that the Hand and Eye have only been used by the same person "once or twice in all the centuries they have plagued humankind" (p. 158).

    Assuming that "used" & "brought together" mean "grafted to the same person," the only candidates we have are Halmadar the Cruel and the unnamed elf in Citadel Cavitius (VL, 65).

    Of course, my theory of the unnamed elf as Vecna II is also a bit shaky, as the BoA only mentions Vecna II having the Hand, but the elf does believe he's Vecna, and an elven lifespan certainly would make a 100 year reign feasible. Not to mention Highport (a possible location for Tyrus) isn't that far from Celene.
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    Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:00 pm  
    Re: The Paladin-King of Miro: a likely candidate

    Robbastard wrote:
    Recently, while combing through Die Vecna Die!, I found a very interesting tidbit that may identify the Paladin King of Miro (AKA Miro the Paladin-King), and the period during which he lived.


    This is excellent work and the most persuasive case I've read. Article please.

    NB - I'll beg to differ with Rip in that I would not attempt to reconcile your deductions with any piece of "fanon," particularly when yours is more comprehensively sourced. Article please!
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    Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:24 pm  

    "Prelate" need not be a ruling title at all. The character is just the leader of a lawful good church(it could be any church of lawful good alignment), not a nation. The church organization could be in any country, or spread over many countries(as is usual), but not be responsible for ruling any country.

    I agree that the squire is a good candidate for the Paladin King of Miro. The squire could even be a prince of royal blood.

    *A prince is squired to a preeminent paladin of a lawful good church(I'd go so far as saying it is the church of the patron god of the royal family).
    *This preeminent paladin having a squire of royal blood fits well for political reasons, let alone the young prince was likely tutored by members of the church anyways, so this is a continuation of the prince's noble education.
    *The squire is likely trained to be a paladin himself, otherwise why not just squire him to a well known knight instead? Certainly such a prince is going to be held to a high standard.
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:52 am; edited 3 times in total
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    Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:39 pm  

    Good thread. Nice find there Rob, I own DVD and have never read it for source material, hmm. The reason I probably haven't ever referenced it normally is because it is shaky for GH canon isn't it? I guess what I mean is I'm sure DVD occurs before the LGG timeline advance (591-598 end of Living GH). But did later products or publications involving Vecna take DVD into account or was it a overlooked like I'm sure many of us did? Put another way, clearly Vecna does not die permanently in official publication as a result of this book or he'd be dead or 'out-of-play' for LG. Eh.
    As to Miro hunting, there had to be a deliberate attempt by the author (who was it?) of DVD to allude to elements from Vecna Lives and Vecna Reborn as it was billed to be the end of the trilogy. It makes me wonder what other easter eggs are in DVD now.
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    Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:05 pm  

    I like it.
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    Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:41 am  

    mortellan wrote:
    But did later products or publications involving Vecna take DVD into account or was it a overlooked like I'm sure many of us did? Put another way, clearly Vecna does not die permanently in official publication as a result of this book or he'd be dead or 'out-of-play' for LG. Eh.


    Vecna does not actually die at the end of Die Vecna Die! He started DVD as a demigod trapped in 2E Ravenloft and ends it as a Lesser Deity in the 3E Core pantheon.

    Quote:
    Vecna did not stay gone forever, and returned to Oerth as a demigod of magic and secrets. In 581 CY, his cult helped set events in motion that would have granted him the power of a greater god, but the plan was ultimately foiled. After these events, Vecna ended up imprisoned in the demiplane of Ravenloft, but broke free again later, emerging with the power of a greater god, after absorbing the power of Iuz. Vecna then entered the city of Sigil, where he came perilously close to rearranging all existence to his whims. When Vecna was ejected from Sigil by a party of adventurers, Iuz was freed and Vecna returned to Oerth greatly reduced in power, though still a lesser god.
    from the GHWiki

    The last two sentences describe the events of Die Vecna Die.

    Also Rip writes:
    Quote:
    After several attempts at thwarting the will of the Dark Powers and escaping the demiplane, Vecna lured Iuz to the copy of Cavitius he inhabited and absorbed the demigod, increasing his own power to the status of a greater deity. With this power he entered Sigil, attempting to use its portals to recreate his scheme at Tovag Baragu on a larger, multiversal scale. For reasons of her own, the Lady of Pain permitted him inside the City of Doors.

    Vecna was ultimately driven out of the Cage by adventures with pieces of his own mortal body grafted to their flesh. In that moment, Iuz escaped from his body, causing Vecna to drop down to lesser deity status. Vecna went to the Material Plane to reside in a series of hidden fortresses, while he plotted further schemes, while whatever scheme the Lady of Pain had intended was presumedly fulfilled.
    on the Planewalker Encyclopedia
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    Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:07 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    "Prelate" need not be a ruling title at all.


    Correct, but in this case the character is specifically said to be the head of an organization.
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    Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:21 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    in this case the character is specifically said to be the head of an organization.


    True, but as Cebrion said, wouldn't that allow the Prelate to simply be the Head of a Church, rather than Head of a Nation? A church is an organization, though its not a nation. Confused

    I do think that Almor might be a better fit though, if we are talking about a "ruling title," Head of a Nation. Cool
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    Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:29 am  

    Thanael quotes me:
    Quote:
    For reasons of her own, the Lady of Pain permitted him inside the City of Doors. Vecna was ultimately driven out of the Cage by adventures with pieces of his own mortal body grafted to their flesh. In that moment, Iuz escaped from his body, causing Vecna to drop down to lesser deity status. Vecna went to the Material Plane to reside in a series of hidden fortresses, while he plotted further schemes, while whatever scheme the Lady of Pain had intended was presumedly fulfilled.
    on the Planewalker Encyclopedia[/quote]

    The "for reasons of her own" bit is from the fan-made 3rd edition Planescape setting. I think the official word, from Sean K. Reynolds and Sam Weiss' Core Beliefs: Vecna article, is that the cambion Ely Cromlich somehow weakened Sigil's wards from within, allowing Vecna to enter. Which was kind of stupid (okay, extremely stupid: you can't let a random NPC do that sort of thing without explaining how he did it and potentially letting the PCs do it as well), so I'd rather just assume the Lady of Pain, as Planewalker.com does (the idea was Todd Stewart's) let him in on purpose to further mysterious goals of her own. Although the whole thing seemed satisfactorily explained in Die Vecna Die! anyway. Vecna wasn't strictly a demigod or god when he entered the City of Doors, so he got through on a loophole. Also, since he rode the Mists of Ravenloft, there was something of a "what happens when an unstoppable force meets an unmovable object?" paradox in play.

    The "series of hidden fortresses" bit is from Complete Divine. And yes, Vecna didn't die in Die, Vecna, Die!, despite the name of the adventure. The actual quote from the adventure itself is: "Though mentally wounded, it is only a matter of time before Vecna recovers his equilibrium and attends to the threads of other plots left untended. He's free of the prison plane that held him, and despite the liberation of luz, still a god."
    GreySage

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    Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:30 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    True, but as Cebrion said, wouldn't that allow the Prelate to simply be the Head of a Church, rather than Head of a Nation? A church is an organization, though its not a nation.


    He doesn't even have to be the head of a church, just the head of a "lawful good coalition." I didn't think I was implying he had to rule a nation anywhere.

    My only point was that if he was the ruler of a nation (Almor), it would satisfy the description. He could also be one of the nine prelates in the Pale, in which case he'd rule neither a church nor an entire nation, as long as he was also the head of a powerful coalition in addition to his duties as one of the Pale's prelates.
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    Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:52 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    He doesn't even have to be the head of a church, just the head of a "lawful good coalition" . . . My only point was that if he was the ruler of a nation (Almor), it would satisfy the description.


    My misunderstanding. You're right, of course. Happy

    And again, I prefer Almor to the Pale too. Better fit. Wink
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    Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:54 am  

    Very nice detective work, Rob! I have a copy of DVD, but I think I just skimmed it - mostly picked it up because it had Vecna's name on it. Very nice detective work indeed.

    Quote:
    After several attempts at thwarting the will of the Dark Powers and escaping the demiplane, Vecna lured Iuz to the copy of Cavitius he inhabited and absorbed the demigod, increasing his own power to the status of a greater deity.


    !!!

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    GreySage

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    Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:54 am  

    Robbastard wrote:
    I'm assuming Sam did not have the Book of Artifacts available to him when he wrote his timeline, and p. 22 of Vecna Lives! does seem to imply that the artifacts were always together.

    I noticed that, too. I think Sam did have the Book of Artifacts, but was discounting it as a reliable source because it contradicts Vecna Lives! in places. For example, Vecna Lives! says that the Revolt of the Yaheetes was in the Dreadwood, while Book of Artifacts says the rebellion was crushed by the Malachite Throne (implying it happened in the Great Kingdom). And, as you said, Vecna Lives! implies the artifacts were always together, while the Book of Artifacts only mentions the Hand. And the Paladin-King of Miro from VL becomes Miro the Paladin-King in the BoA.

    Of course, both these sources were written by the same author, so I suspect that David "Zeb" Cook was intentionally introducing variations in order to suggest the idea of conflicting rumors and legends that no one alive knows the truth of.

    Quote:
    However, page 70 of VL states: "One great secret of the Eye and the Hand is the existence of additional powers when the two artifacts are brought together. So little is known of this because it has almost never happened, no more than twice in the entire history of the two artifacts. Of those instances, few records remain."


    Well, "few records remain" is definitely an accurate description of the Paladin-King, since we don't even know where Miro was. So that could have been one of the times in question. So could Vecna II, of course.

    That said, we don't know for sure, because of the vague and contradictory evidence in the sources. It could be that the Paladin-King only had the Hand.

    Your process-of-elimination evidence that he couldn't have had it - that the elf-Vecna and Halmadar must have been the only ones to bring the artifacts together - is clever and persuasive, however, and I'm willing to assume the elf was Vecna II for lack of a better possibility.
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    Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:25 am  

    Having one of my article invoked, I will provide some answers to long time Greyhawkers:

    As Rip notes and surmises, I did have the BoA. As he also notes, there are contradictions between that and other material, including very simple Greyhawk canon, ala the geographical relationship between the Vesve Forest and the Malachite Throne. As such, it ultimately required a decision as to which to prefer. Part of this included a decision about Paddin the Vain and the Insurrection of the Yaheetes. As Gary Holian had his own NPC to relate to said Insurrection, I decided that needing a name, Paddin would serve to become the Paladin-King.

    This same decision making applied when I decided that the 150+/- year cycle represented both artifacts coming together. While it makes for 5 such occurrences rather than the one or two suggested, I felt it made for a more intriguing story.

    As for the location of Miro, this was a result of discussions with Gary Holian. I had decided on the general circling back, itself derived from suggestions from Noel Graham long ago. From the Blemu Hills to the north shore of the Nyr Dyv leaves a very small area for Miro to appear in. I had no real idea of what to do, but Gary Holian did, and he suggested the connection to See of Medegia, and the replacement of the Pholtines with the Hextorians. I tied that into Dimre, and the result was Miro becoming the precursor to the modern day Pale. Where exactly the city of Miro was remains unspecified, but as I recall the suggestion was it was somewhere sunk in the Trollmoors, and that Miro once spread across the general area of both the Pale and Tenh.

    As for Vecna entering Sigil, that is covered in DVD, on page 122. Essentially, he "cheated": he was not a deity at the time he entered Sigil, his power in flux and his status changing as he went from demipower to lesser power. While his long planted agent Ely Cromlich was ready to turn the ruins of the Armory over to him, and while he quickly gained the allegiance of power player Authochon the Bellringer, neither was specifically named as directly related to setting up the circumstances to let Vecna take advantage of the loophole he had discovered. How many were unintentionally and incidentally related to such is an obvious concept for a DM to improvise wildly on, as secrets are an essential part of Vecna.
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    Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:40 am  
    Re: The Paladin-King of Miro: a likely candidate

    rasgon wrote:

    If Verlamis was "the leader of an ancient lawful good coalition," as opposed to merely one of nine leaders, he must have been more than merely one of the Council of the Nine (although he may have been that as well), but also the leader of some order with the means to send paladins to other planes (because Cavitius was, at the time, located on the Quasielemental Plane of Ash). If he was a prelate of the Pale, he might have been the head of the Lords of the Gloaming. The Whiteguard might also be a possibility, though we know little of that. If, contrary to your speculations, Verlamis lived in Almor or elsewhere, he might have been the leader of Heironeous's Order of the Chalice. But, of course, if he was the Prelate of Almor, Almor probably qualifies as an ancient lawful good coalition in itself.


    I do find a connection to the Lords of the Gloaming attractive, despite their interest in the lower planes. The Order of the Chalice less so, because aside from their concentration on fiends (Player's Handbook II, 170), their chief mission is to rescue Heironeous's daughter from Dispater, and there really doesn't seem to be any significant link between devils & Vecna.
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    Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:26 am  
    Re: The Paladin-King of Miro: a likely candidate

    rasgon wrote:
    The main problem I see with this scenario is that Vecna's disembodied will was supposed to have drifted for "untold centuries" (VL, page 7) before reforming as a demigod. This is vague, and 252 CY is certainly centuries after Vecna's fall in approximately -375 CY, but the "untold" part makes me a bit cautious in making Vecna too active too early.


    I understand you concern about staging Vecna's return too early. However, who's to say that Verlamis wasn't acting on false information? Vecna's cult was certainly alive and well, and quite likely remained in control of Vecna's palace within Citadel Cavitius. Perhaps by the mid 4th century, Vecna's will had gained enough power to commune with his followers, though not enough to manifest physically. After all, sources as early as the DMG1 (which I don't have on hand, so I'm working from memory) mention that Vecna's name was spoken in whispers, implying that his spirit yet remained a threat.

    Perhaps Verlamis finally learned of Cavitius, and suspecting it to be Vecna's home plane, began planning an invasion to recover the Sword of Kas and slay Vecna. The problem was that perhaps Vecna, while strong enough to grant spells, was not strong enough to fully manifest on a physical level.
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    Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:52 am  

    That's quite possible. He might also have had a physical manifestation, but not yet the demigod status he needed to begin the plot he almost realized in Vecna Lives!

    I will note that he had to be a powerful threat from the moment he took residence in Cavitius after his return from oblivion, since he took it by force from its previous occupants (the Doomguard: see A DM Guide to the Planes in the Planescape Campaign Setting box by David "Zeb" Cook, page 37. Any spellcaster who can defeat the best-armed of the planar factions is a force to be reckoned with). Although granted, much of the work could have been done by his followers rather than Vecna directly. (The timeline of this is strange, since Vecna obviously had control of Cavitius when he banished Kas there, so Kas and other early prisoners must have remained in the city for all the centuries that the Doomguard ruled it, even though Vecna wasn't there to enforce matters. They must have assumed the obligation of guarding the prisoners of the city when they took it over).

    I'm not really that worried about it, though. There's only so many centuries available, and a few more or less isn't going to make much of a difference in whether or not they qualify as "untold." The only reason I really have the slightest concern in the matter is based on the (somewhat wild) speculation that the 580s CY was the absolute soonest Vecna could have made his move because he had been imprisoned beneath Castle Greyhawk with eight other demigods until 570. If this were true, he must not have had much time to prepare before that either. But even if we grant those unfounded speculations, there's no reason it couldn't have taken him centuries to create and array his objects of power, and locate his Hand and Eye.

    Really, all my criticisms boil down to personal preference, and even then they're thin at best.
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    Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:17 pm  
    Re: The Paladin-King of Miro: a likely candidate

    rasgon wrote:
    Samwise connects the Paladin-King to the corrupted cult of Pholtus in Dimre. If you set Miro in the Bandit Kingdoms, Dimre sounds like a good place for it. If Miro itself was in Dimre (rather than in Tenh, where Samwise put it), that makes the connection even stronger.


    Dimre is very tempting, but Samwise has it extant too early, IMO. The LGG states Dimre was founded "prior to the Great Council of Rel Mord" in 450 CY (p. 26). Sam has the artifacts taken to Dimre sometime between 293 & 342, which is indeed earlier than 450, but one would think that if the LGG authors had intended Dimre to have been founded before the Pale, they would have mentioned a date prior to 450. I'm of the opinion that Dimre was founded only a few years before 450, as any earlier date would have (likely) been clarified as "x decade(s) before the Council of Rel Mord." Of course, at that point, the artifacts were already in Halmadar's possession (from 420-581 CY, specifically).

    However, there may have certainly been settlements ain Dimre before its theocracy was founded, and its possible the Paladin-King had settled in that area a few decades before 420. Perhaps the Paladin-King inspired the founding of the theocracy, as he would have been a perfect example of one who walked "hand-in-hand with darkness." He might even be regarded as a saint in their Pholtine sect.
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    Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:38 pm  
    Re: The Paladin-King of Miro: a likely candidate

    Robbastard wrote:
    However, there may have certainly been settlements ain Dimre before its theocracy was founded, and its possible the Paladin-King had settled in that area a few decades before 420. Perhaps the Paladin-King inspired the founding of the theocracy, as he would have been a perfect example of one who walked "hand-in-hand with darkness." He might even be regarded as a saint in their Pholtine sect.


    This was my intent.
    Fifty years of so for the survivors of the purge that threw down the Paladin-King to regroup, rebuild, gain converts, and eventually declare themselves again in Dimre is quite reasonable to me.

    And Rip, once again, take note of Ely Cromlich. Your reference does not say by force, merely that he took it. Ely was at the Armory in Sigil for over a century as per The Factol's Manifesto. Where he was before that, say at Citadel Cavitius, giving it over to his master Vecna at the proper time, and making sure Vecna's prisoners were properly accounted for even after he left, is not specified.
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    Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:57 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    I will note that he had to be a powerful threat from the moment he took residence in Cavitius after his return from oblivion, since he took it by force from its previous occupants (the Doomguard: see A DM Guide to the Planes in the Planescape Campaign Setting box by David "Zeb" Cook, page 37. Any spellcaster who can defeat the best-armed of the planar factions is a force to be reckoned with). Although granted, much of the work could have been done by his followers rather than Vecna directly. (The timeline of this is strange, since Vecna obviously had control of Cavitius when he banished Kas there, so Kas and other early prisoners must have remained in the city for all the centuries that the Doomguard ruled it, even though Vecna wasn't there to enforce matters. They must have assumed the obligation of guarding the prisoners of the city when they took it over).


    Actually, the Planescape Campaign Setting: A DM Guide to the Planes says Vecna seized Cavitius "eons ago" (p. 37): “Here the Doomguard once had Citadel Cavitius. . . . Eons ago it was taken from them by the lich Vecna.” As Vecna is described as a “lich” in the passage, it should be safe to assume that this event occurred after he achieved lichdom. This work contradicts an earlier (and likely erroneous) claim that Citadel Cavitius was magically “formed” by Vecna (D. Cook, Vecna Lives!, 62). Furthermore, Vecna’s takeover of Citadel Cavitius at this time is evidence that he expanded “his evil dominion” and that his “dominion extended over another plane,” though not of accompanying rumors “that he was ultimately destroyed by a revolt of the greater powers that dwelled there” (VL, 6, 7).

    rasgon wrote:
    The only reason I really have the slightest concern in the matter is based on the (somewhat wild) speculation that the 580s CY was the absolute soonest Vecna could have made his move because he had been imprisoned beneath Castle Greyhawk with eight other demigods until 570.


    Where does this speculation originate? Is it from Mona's proposed list of demigods?
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