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    Canonfire :: View topic - pumping more life into Greyhawk and Canonfire!
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    pumping more life into Greyhawk and Canonfire!
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    CF Admin

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    Sun Sep 20, 2009 1:13 pm  
    pumping more life into Greyhawk and Canonfire!

    Over in the Art Gallery thread, Icarus said:

    Icarus wrote:

    We're all in this together, and as Summer is coming to an end, take a little time and look into what you can do, and find something that is fun for you ... and help out with making Canonfire a very active site. We want new contributions, we want to read new stories, and we want to see new artwork!! And if there's something that you would like to see, bring it up in discussion and make constructive suggestions about how the content could be nicely improved! It's all about what we, as fans, can do for each other. And the more new, fresh ideas and members, and fans who are actively bring those in ... the better Canonfire becomes.

    [snip]

    And ultimately this isn't just a call for art!! Everyone can do something! It doesn't have to be a massive article that has a million hours of research behind it! Are you an organizer? Work on a database! A big reader? Find an obscure fact and just compile a list of references! A web crawler? Scour the 'net and help us find other resources, and make a thread about where to find stuff!! Do you like getting to read the first drafts of stuff before it comes out? Offer to be an editor! Big on web-programming? Offer to be a moderator! Take some of the load off of Cebrion! Like novels? Write a review of stuff you've read, and how it could be used in Greyhawk! (Just like the old Dragon magazine column "The Role of Books".) There's even a section for stuff that isn't canon stuff! Change GH all you want! Throw out the wackiest idea you ever had about why Ehlonna is actually a Medusa demi-lich, and toss it into The Heretic's Nest!


    Brian and others have done a good job with trying to promote the postfests, I think: having folks set aside sufficient time to participate seems to have been the "issue" with those (although I'm not sure how actively supported the past few have been, either: I'm just thinking of the ones I've meant to contribute to and never got around to doing so).

    I'm not sure if the are other ways to help support the content-portion of the site with new content, other than a) dredging up old frequent contributors and re-engaging them, b) getting new folks to submit content.

    We haven't had a true "content whip" who's role has been to regularly flog people for content since Monty/Montand/Taras left ages ago: perhaps we need someone to help manage new content? (And no, I'm no volunteering Happy). I know that folks who attend the Thursday chats were usually the more-frequent posters/commenters/etc., but am not sure if that's still the case or not? Perhaps one of those folks would be a good "whip"?
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    GreySage

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    Sun Sep 20, 2009 2:13 pm  
    Re: pumping more life into Greyhawk and Canonfire!

    grodog wrote:
    I'm not sure if the are other ways to help support the content-portion of the site with new content, other than a) dredging up old frequent contributors and re-engaging them . . .


    There's nothing new in people "tiring out." Work at it "alone" long enough and everyone burns out. Perhaps a little encouragement is all these folks need. And so . . .

    grodog wrote:
    We haven't had a true "content whip" who's role has been to regularly flog people for content since Monty/Montand/Taras left ages ago: perhaps we need someone to help manage new content . . . I know that folks who attend the Thursday chats were usually the more-frequent posters . . . Perhaps one of those folks would be a good "whip"?


    Perhaps we need just such a person. I truly and deeply regret that I cannot volunteer to do this -- though I would love to -- my "computer skills" are more "lacking" than most of you probably realize. Embarassed

    And many participating in Thursday's chat are already incredibly busy . . . but I know that most of us here are sincerely hoping that someone has just enough spare time to fill the post. "We" are looking for a volunteer! Happy

    grodog wrote:
    I'm not sure if the are other ways to help support the content-portion of the site with new content, other than . . . b) getting new folks to submit content.


    I think the single biggest deterrent there is fear, fear of rejection. But there's really no need for that. What "we" want from commentators (and our future whip) is Constructive Criticism NOT Destructive Criticism.

    Gentle people, for Greyhawk -- For GREYHAWK -- Rose Estes was a terrible writer, terrible. BUT, even she managed to "contribute" a useful idea, or two. And that's what we need and want . . . your ideas. Please, you can contribute something. (I've "begun" by contributing to the wiki)

    Commentators, let's help these future "writers" to write better, don't deliberately try to make them quit. Anyone with this attitude should go ahead and feel ashamed of themselves right now!

    I can say more, but I'll let someone else "talk" for awhile.

    Together, we can be a force.
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:01 pm  

    I formally nominate Mortellan as "Content Whip".

    Mainly for one reason- he puts out stuff on a weekly basis, so he is the perfect person to rile people up and get them to submit content. And if they don't, he's also the perfect person to smack talk about it, as he is walkin' the walk, not just talkin' the talk. Laughing

    Seriously, I nominate Mortellan. Cool
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    GreySage

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    Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:16 pm  

    AWESOME!!! Shocked Happy Cool

    I second the nomination of Mortellan! Come on Mort! Do it for us! Crack that whip! Evil Grin

    (As seen in some of his artwork, Mort does have a little bit of the "sadist" in him . . . perfect! Evil Grin )
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    Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:27 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    I second the nomination of Mortellan! Come on Mort! Do it for us! Crack that whip! Evil Grin


    Okay ... I can't resist ... it has to be done. I mean, it really HAS to be done ...
    DEVO wrote:

    When a problem comes along ... Mort must whip it.
    Make Submissions come along ... Mort must whip it.
    Get the content goin' strong ... Mort must whip it.

    Now whip it...
    Into shape...
    Shape it up...
    Get straight...
    Go forward...
    Move ahead...
    Try to detect it...
    Its not too late...
    To whip it...
    Whip it good!!!


    I know .. it's ugly, and wrong, and I shouldn't have done it.
    but it sure was fun!! Evil Grin Shocked Evil Grin Laughing Evil Grin
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    GreySage

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    Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:37 pm  

    Icarus, that's sick . . . and sooo damn cool! Laughing Laughing Laughing

    You rock! Icarus for Mayor! (We'll start small) Evil Grin
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    Sun Sep 20, 2009 9:23 pm  



    You guys... rolleyes
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:06 am  

    Right click...save file as...done. Added to my WOG collection. Cool

    This is an easy job, and one that is enjoyable! Just think of it- you get to bug yourself about finishing Kester, and I won't have to do it for you anymore! Two birds with one stone! Laughing

    Unless I see you slacking off at it of course. Evil Grin
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    Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:42 am  

    Now, what does it mean if I enjoy being whipped? Should he instead, say, quote the script of Rambo First Blood Part II to me?[/u]
    GreySage

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    Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:51 am  

    I don't know Chaotic, maybe something more along the lines of:

    "Batgirl? That's not very PC. What about Batwoman, or Batperson?" Laughing

    Mort that's AWESOME! And you threw that together in no time at all! You're our guy! Cool

    All Hail Mort, Content Whip of Tharizdun, err, I mean Canonfire! Evil Grin Laughing
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    Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:55 am  

    "Whip of Tharizdun"

    now THATS a relic ! Shocked
    GreySage

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    Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:10 am  

    Theft! Theft! Rossik's stealing my stuff! Laughing Laughing Laughing
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    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:55 am  

    I think it should be mentioned that contributions need not be that large. A single NPC, an encounter area, a historical tidbit of some sort, are all acceptable as articles. One need not create a 20-page manuscript. Also, one need not demonstrate any significant degree of scholarship. Original material that has no connection to existing canon is also acceptable.

    And I also think the editing process might be daunting to some. I suspect it would help if the editors were to explain what they will and will not do to submitted manuscripts. I realize there are submission guidelines posted already, but I'm talking about answering a few questions such as "will you carve up my article and change it significantly," "if it's not that good will you fix it for me," "if it sucks will you tell me how to make it right" and so on. I've run into several people who ask these questions and others.
    GreySage

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    Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:32 pm  

    bubbagump wrote:
    I think it should be mentioned that contributions need not be that large . . . one need not demonstrate any significant degree of scholarship.


    Ideas have power. Submit your ideas, if nothing else. Give Mort, Glad, Icarus and others something to work with; artistic concepts and storyline plots. Cool

    Everyone can contribute something! Happy
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    Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:44 pm  

    I'm always open to art suggestions.....shoot, my imagination has dwindled to diddly-squat over the years.

    Ahhh, youth.
    CF Admin

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    Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:44 pm  

    Let's not forget:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdXQJS3Yv0Y&feature=player_embedded

    rossik wrote:
    "Whip of Tharizdun"

    now THATS a relic ! Shocked


    BZZT: we already have SKR's Whip of, erm, nevermind: that was a flail.... rolleyes
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    GreySage

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    Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:04 pm  

    That was great Grodog! I had almost forgotten about the animated version of the Lord of the Rings . . . and I own it! Laughing

    That was great. Its good to remember. Cool
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    Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:06 pm  
    Time or Two

    Hi all -
    Mort's funny. But he cannot do anything that will jeopardize the WoG Comic. So I have to refrain from nominating him - unless he can 'promise' that any new or further duties regarding CanonFire! would not interrupt the process and flow of my Weekly Comic reading.

    Part of the problem is burn out but also one of politics. As one of the people (under the lamer Issak The Pale [which meant that I was THE PALE, not as in pale skinned] ) that were in Chat the night that Gary allowed all 10 of us to enter the CanonFire site (before it was public) I kinda know about a thing or two. At the time, ChatDemon Rich was the main coder. SamWise was big and important too. Montand and all his Great Kingdom stuff. I'd recall that Mort was there as well as Grodog, same with M:tG (Marc Gonzalez).

    Now I am not going to say that only Grodog and I post to the forums anymore - because I'm not that active - from that early time (and as 'admins'). I only really read Mort's forum and whatever is on the front page. So I wouldn't know who is active.
    But activity comes in waves. For a while there Abysslin was the main site admin who cracked the whip with postfests as well as the forums. Then he went and got a Dog and they became best friends (I'm making that whole part up). Don Greyson came in but I'm sure with the whole housing market - he's a bit busy in Utah.

    Somewhere in there, Chat and Abysslin didn't like each other. Sam wrote a few things and wanted them removed. So they left and now still do Thursday Chat, but in the #OerthJournal room.
    Along the way, Richard Zavoda restored the Oerth Journal and did a couple issues before passing it along to M:tG. Marc was the greatest, but alas after becoming a lawyer - well he was swallowed up by corporate greed (I'm making that whole part up - since I know that at least part of his practice was about helping the homeless). During this time, M:tG suggested that I become the 'Publisher' of the OJ by buying and hosting the domain name on my GHO site. This was so that there was someone that was familiar with GH, someone that was familiar with the OJ, and so that someone would stick around with overall control (based on the idea of the Council of Greyhawk). So I did, but nothing really happened with it. Then he passed the reins to Phil (If I remember correctly, or if I'd bother to go open up an OJ and look). Phil (or who I am referring to as Phil) did a couple of issues. Then Rick took over. He has held the reigns for a long time. His control over the OJ has been one full of awesome, and he's the one that re-did the Web site. But Rick's been quite for about a year. This means that as 'Publisher' I really should find out what's going on with Rick and see if he wants to retain editorship of the OJ. If not, then look for someone else. But I like what Rick's done with the OJ and don't want to see him away from it. Plus then I'd have to go and round up the Council of Greyhawk (whomever that would be) and determine a new editor (although I think M:tG just passed it along to Phil who passed it along to Rick).


    So what happens is that people have a major stake in CanonFire or the Oerth Journal. It started with Gary Holian. He and Erik started the OJ and then Gary did CF! about the time that 3.0 was announced. But Gary has always relied on others to manage the site - because he didn't want burn out. But that is why it takes 6 years to get something changed if you wait for Gary to modify it vs. 6min if Cebrion does it. But after a while - in the case of ChatDemon and SamWise - burnout coupled with interest with politics and other aspects - they move away from CF!.

    People like Cebrion are what make CF!. Myself and Grodog have been here all along - not really leaving but not really making much of a contribution (well, for me at least). Mort's been here since that early chat, but he makes a weekly contribution. It's the only reason I keep GreyhawkOnline.com (or it was, but with the new Maps and other ideas...I am liking it even more).
    We have been lucky in that someone has always been there to step up and accept responsibility. But being an Admin of the Site is a lot of work. I'm not saying that you need to have computer skills - you need to have time and willingness do it. Don't over do it, else you'll burn out. Just like those that post. Remember Penquin86 or whatever his name was? What about Cruel Summerlord. Sometimes they still post - but not like they did. Now it's Icarus and a few 'newcomers' that are driving Greyhawk and CanonFire! and I think that is the greatest. Even if we're all the same age (or older in Bobcob's follower's case), it's timing. The timing that people are willing to give to CanonFire! are important. What are you willing to provide for CanonFire!? Icarus does excellent Artwork as well as commenting on multiple threads. But so does Bobcob's representative.
    Can you write? Rasgon has a knowledge base in his brain (or Cyberdine hdd) or something - if someone can write but are just not sure of details, getting with that guy/cybernetic could make for an article full of awesome. But keeping it up without burn out is important. And in the end, it's usually finding and keeping time that passes the buck onto someone else. Because we all care about Greyhawk and CanonFire!, it certainly isn't a lack of desire.

    Be Well. Be Well Timed.
    Theocrat Issak
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    Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:12 pm  

    better than this!:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbt30UnzRWw

    i was trying to make a joke at the "assitant whip", but discovered that this a actual job or something O___O
    Site Theocrat

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    Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:14 pm  
    Content Authors

    Bubbagump is one fine example of an author with Greyhawk stuff. Having read and worked to edit the Oerth Journal aspect for the Expanded Oerth stuff, he should be forced into service.
    And just because I have a 'Weathering The Flanaess' article that I've been promising the editors of the OJ for a very long time does not mean that I will be completing said works in the next 5 years. It was based off the Darlene maps, and my math was wonky at the time. So Now I'd have to find the new Longitude and Latitude of each city based on the Dungeon maps.
    Plus I still spend all my day looking for a job. So no.

    Theocrat Issak
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    Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:35 pm  

    Well said Issak!

    First, I am modestly honored to have been photoshoped into the origins of CF but no I wasn't here since the beginning. I signed up early on but didn't become a contributor at all until a few years later when I stumbled onto the Thursday chat. By then there had already been changes, like Montand had left (still have never met him). Anyhoo, the rest of the burn out/ political crowd I know well and communicate with when possible. All could be talked into contributing new stuff given the right motivation and talking to and I have other ideas to bring their older work to the forefront for the newer crowd to see.

    Second, do we need a Community Whip? I could certainly try since I don't plan on ditching CF anytime soon, in fact I could show several cases where I have already been whipping for content (unsuccessfully apparently) via my comic. If it requires a titled mandate to hunt down would be GH contributors I can try I guess. Am I really the best candidate here? Any other takers? :P

    Third, Issak and Cebrion mentions my comic as the only remaining weekly contribution and that's a startling fact I overlook. My force of will in contributing was mentioned recently one Greychat. Am I the glue that binds this site since Wizards closed up shop on GH? Istus, I hope not. I am a year away from my milestone 300th issue and was planning to reassess my desire to make the comic then. Imagine what content I could put out for CF or OJ if I wasn't doing a weekly comic? With that said, before quitting W.o.G my first desire would be to find a talent perhaps artistic who can approach my dedication and make another GH themed comic or a weekly GH series of fiction (like Scott Casper did on the GT mailing list). There, I just whipped. Something like that. Good thread. Discuss.
    GreySage

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    Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:54 pm  

    I've already said that "burn out" can be areal problem. For those of you who are currently employed, think of your present job . . . "burn out." It would be nice to be someplace new, eh? Evil Grin

    But all that said, it still takes technical know-how. Today, during my first foray into Greychat, my "hometown" friend Icarus taught me how to do several things I didn't know how to do before . . . behold my new Avatar (more in line with my "name," don't you think?). So, I'm working on it.

    "Picking up the reins" is something I would love to do, but it would take an awful lot of "hand holding," on the part of someone else, to get the job done. "Two" people to do "one" job? Confused

    Cebrion's hands are full and he's greatly under-appreciated. Thanks very much Cebrion, you do a great deal for us. The last thing Canonfire! needs is for you to "burn out."

    The last thing in the world that I would want, is to lose Mortellan's current contributions. Mort, I don't know if you're "the glue" that holds it all together, but you are definitely the "one thing" that everyone looks forward too. And I love Canonfire! far too much to jeopardize that.

    As for Bubbagump, he's a personal source of information and encouragement . . . sharing him would be a hard thing, after all, I already have to contend with the wife and kids! But I guess, for the sake of Canonfire! it could be done. Happy Laughing Laughing

    Bubbagump would certainly be an excellent choice. But he's also honestly busy and may feel that he doesn't have the time to devote to it. I love Canonfire!, but "time" for the kids must come first. I wouldn't "draft" him, he'd have to volunteer.

    I think Wolfsire might be able to do more in the way of Administration, but I haven't had a chance to speak with him yet, and won't volunteer him. I freely confess that I know less about his computer skills than I should, given that we "speak" fairly often. I'd really like to see him contribute more articles. I've never really been "big" on the Olman, but I really enjoy Wolfsire's writings, he's winning me over.

    And Issak, my first Canonfire! friend. When I first joined I had problems getting the site to accept my application . . . the Holy Theocrat to the rescue! Issak isn't the only one looking for work, but that doesn't mean he has nothing to do. He has a great deal on his plate. Heaven's forbode that he should suffer "burn out." More than one site would suffer for it.

    The same could be said for Maldin, who really is doing the Ph.D. thing. Yep, we can legitimately call him Prof, since he teaches at a college. Plus, fifty percent of his "free" time is devoted to his own site.

    There are a couple of Ladies I could mention -- they know who they are --but, they too, are busy with other things best not interrupted.

    I hope to one day do my own site, for the simple reason that I have no desire to surrender all IP rights to WotC, though I wish to share my ideas with "you." Thus, I need a place to post some non-Greyhawk specific stuff. Cool

    Well, there you have it. So far, the only eagerly willing person is too computer illiterate for the job! Hopefully it won't end there.
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    Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:05 pm  

    bubbagump wrote:
    I think it should be mentioned that contributions need not be that large. A single NPC, an encounter area, a historical tidbit of some sort, are all acceptable as articles. One need not create a 20-page manuscript. Also, one need not demonstrate any significant degree of scholarship. Original material that has no connection to existing canon is also acceptable.

    And I also think the editing process might be daunting to some. I suspect it would help if the editors were to explain what they will and will not do to submitted manuscripts. I realize there are submission guidelines posted already, but I'm talking about answering a few questions such as "will you carve up my article and change it significantly," "if it's not that good will you fix it for me," "if it sucks will you tell me how to make it right" and so on. I've run into several people who ask these questions and others.


    I want to contribute an NPC. He's a chaotic good drow ranger who fights with two scimitars that he found in two separate places but they look exactly the same and whenever his friends die they actually didn't.

    His name is Smarmy Joe.
    GreySage

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    Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:11 pm  

    Hmmmm, no, don't know that name . . . but he sure sounds familiar! Confused

    That's right! I ran into him at Baldur's Gate and again in Athkatla! He had some friends with him and was asking something about a "pink" war hammer? Confused Evil Grin
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:53 am  

    bubbagump wrote:
    I think it should be mentioned that contributions need not be that large. A single NPC, an encounter area, a historical tidbit of some sort, are all acceptable as articles. One need not create a 20-page manuscript. Also, one need not demonstrate any significant degree of scholarship. Original material that has no connection to existing canon is also acceptable.

    And I also think the editing process might be daunting to some. I suspect it would help if the editors were to explain what they will and will not do to submitted manuscripts. I realize there are submission guidelines posted already, but I'm talking about answering a few questions such as "will you carve up my article and change it significantly," "if it's not that good will you fix it for me," "if it sucks will you tell me how to make it right" and so on. I've run into several people who ask these questions and others.


    Let me address a few points here. A 20 page submission really is too big for an article anyways. I don't know about everyone else, but something of that size I'd rather download and read in a page layout format rather than as one continuously scrolling web page, which is what it would be as an Article. In my opinion, a very nice size for an Article is 750 to 2,000 words or so. Anybody can accomplish that.

    So far as editing is concerned, we leave that up to the author for the most part. We don't chop anything up. All that is asked for is that you at least make an effort to correct spelling, grammar, and other glaringly obvious mistakes, like cut-n-paste errors. Do *not* rely on Spell Check alone as it has its own inherent disadvantages. Turn of the Style editor as well, which when combined with Spell check will do a much better job, but not necessarily flawless job. *Read the article yourself. Then give it to somebody else to read.* A fresh set of eyes may catch things you do not. If you don't know anybody locally who will do it, ask one of the members here if they will help out. One last thing- do *not* submit a rough draft *ever*. Also, *never* submit anything that is *not* about Greyhawk. Yes, you may have noticed that this website has a "Greyhawk" theme. Embrace it. Happy

    We are also not some sort of writing school. Just write to the best of your ability. If you think you can't write very well then ask a member for help, or go take a class on it. Seriously, if it is that important to you, you ought to do just that. Also, write about whatever *you* want to, in whatever style that you want to. Tastes vary wildly, so it is likely that whatever you have written will appeal to somebody. Cool

    Also, Canonfire! went live on July 5, 2001 with a few select folks(as Issak mentioned) having been let into the site on June 28th/29th to have a look around- 17 people to be exact. I found out about the site a little bit more than a year and a half after that while on the first incarnation of the Wotc forums . I joined Canonfire! on February 16, 2003. I wandered into the Thursday night GREYchat room a couple of months later, and pop in regularly there still. I never had the chance to interact with some of the "old guard" folks there and on this site. I've been the main site administrator/forum moderator since late March of 2008. The last six months have been somewhat of a grind I have to admit.

    About a year later, on February 26, 2004, Mortellan joined up. He was instantly hated, though I think that had more to do with "winning" two Postfests in a row(we all know the voting was rigged Wink). Anyways, he is still hated as he is a real *EXPLETIVE*, but whaddya gonna do? Razz

    Also, as to The Oerth Journal, Rick has been at its helm for fully a third of its issues, and I have been there backing him up the whole time with editing and bit of map work. I also pushed for the full color "Tarrasque Edition" of the issues, and yes, that name stuck. Rick took the initiative to put it all into a full-blown magazine style layout though- that's all his hard work. Lots of other folks have helped out in many different ways too(see the various issue credits). The contributing artists have helped make these issues really out. Since Rick discovered the crystal meth that is the World of Warcraft mmorg(a vile habit to be sure- it's not even Greyhawk! Razz), "The Oerth Journal" # 25 has languished in Limbo. It is all but finished, and has been in such a state for months. Rick has also been moving around a bit too, so that messes with one's internet access, making a project like "The Oerth Journal" that much harder to work on. There is also another factor though. As the main person backing Rick up on "The Oerth Journal", since I took on Moderator/Admin duties at Canonfire! my backing of him has, by necessity, lessened too, putting more of a burden on him. To keep "The Oerth Journal" at its current level, it will require more than just two main people. The problem never has been finding people willing to help, but finding people with right skill sets that are willing to help.

    I've also not had very much time to work on writing anything myself. I literally have a file of around 20 partially finished articles waiting for some attention.

    Also, the current Postfest topic was chosen to be about as "wide open" and unrestricted as is possible. You get to write on "ancient sites" that may not even have been discovered yet, so they could literally be anything. Maybe a lost tomb, maybe a lost city, maybe even a lost kingdom. The type of site and the scope of the site is entirely up to you. Though I've only heard from two people who are working on articles for this Postfest, I hope that there will be more than that, so be sure to take a look at it HERE.
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:58 am; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

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    Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:50 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    A 20 page submission really is too big for an article anyways . . . a very nice size for an Article is 750 to 2,000 words or so. Anybody can accomplish that.


    Quite true, Cebrion. But that doesn't mean "longer" articles aren't possible, just submitt them to the OJ! Happy

    PSmedger, Mort, Icarus and I were talking about that last night in Greychat. Gary Holian wants to get the e-magazine and Canonfire! revitalized and we were all sharing ideas about what to do. Cool

    So go ahead and write those long articles, but "save" them for a more appropriate venue -- the OJ! Cool
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    Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:39 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    I've already said that "burn out" can be areal problem. For those of you who are currently employed, think of your present job . . . "burn out." It would be nice to be someplace new, eh?

    Having just come off a 5-year hiatus due to Real Life (a job change, two moves, and a new baby), CanonFire may be my remedy for burnout!

    I was here from close to the beginning, but not actively - I preferred Greytalk over a web-based MB those days. Now that I'm back (hopefully to stay!), I will try to submit something regularly. Last week I dropped 6 different Bandit Kingdom articles on Cebrion - the History article up now is only the first.

    As an author, something that would help motivate is feedback - I haven't gotten any on the history article(sniff, sniff, wah... Happy). What's the correct etiquette - should I go ahead and create the thread in the Reader's Workshop area?

    Speaking of articles - Cebrion, when will the next BK article be up? Just curious.
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    Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:54 am  

    Oerthman wrote:
    CanonFire may be my remedy for burnout!

    I was here from close to the beginning, but not actively . . .


    Welcome back. I saw the members list last night on Greychat, you were there -- way back, as in the beginning! Stick around this time! We'll revitalize Canonfire! together (with others). Happy

    Oerthman wrote:
    Last week I dropped 6 different Bandit Kingdom articles on Cebrion - the History article up now is only the first.

    As an author, something that would help motivate is feedback - I haven't gotten any on the history article(sniff, sniff, wah... Happy).


    Not true! Heresy! I was reading your article submission just this morning, gave you 4 stars. I just haven't had a chance to "comment" on it yet. I've been working on a submission of my own this morning, while talking on Greychat with GLH_PSE and looking up information in the wiki, busy bee! But I'll get that comment in, I promise. Feedback! Evil Grin
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    Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:24 am  

    hey guys, just thought about it...what about a FAQ?

    I mean, we created a topic about FAQ, and then after a while, someone could edit it and it could become a article, or even a part of the site.

    just wondering Smile
    GreySage

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    Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:34 am  

    We have a FAQ tab in the Canonfire! header, Rossik, but I think you know this, so . . . clarification on your inquiry please? Confused
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    Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:01 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    We have a FAQ tab in the Canonfire! header, Rossik, but I think you know this, so . . . clarification on your inquiry please? Confused


    my bad, sorry..this is what happen when you try to work and chat at the same time :P

    ok, the one we have is about "How Canonfire! works".
    i belive one like "Is Tharizdun EEG?" , "What happend to Thrommel?", "whats the correct order to play the supermodules" and so on.

    more greyhawk stuff then canonfire stuff.

    just a idea , so if people help, we can do this preaty easy, and i think it would be a cool idea
    GreySage

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    Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:17 am  

    rossik wrote:
    i belive one like "Is Tharizdun EEG?" , "What happend to Thrommel?", "whats the correct order to play the supermodules" and so on.


    I believe that it would be pointed out that a FAQ page for something like the EGG/Tharizdun or Thrommel question would have to be based upon definite answers, whereas many answers to such questions as this would be based upon supposition, implication and speculation. There's no definite Yes or No answer to some of these types of query, only surmise. Confused

    As for the "correct" order to play the supermodules, that would be the DM's choice. As far as the correct timeline of events is concerned, I suppose a list could be made based upon that.

    But such a list still would not determine the supposed "correct order" in which to play said supermodules. That's a matter of personal preference. Cool
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    Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:31 am  

    rossik wrote:
    i belive one like "Is Tharizdun EEG?" , "What happend to Thrommel?", "whats the correct order to play the supermodules" and so on.

    more greyhawk stuff then canonfire stuff.


    Some of this is already there in the FAQ, based on the old Greytalk FAQ from many moons ago. Check the "World of Greyhawk" category in the FAQ.

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=FAQ&myfaq=yes&id_cat=3&categories=The+World+of+Greyhawk
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    Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:38 am  

    ok, it was just a ideia.

    hey Mysthic, take easy on the "bold" effect, you seem a little addicted to it! Wink
    ok guy, no problem, just trying to help, as i've seen those questiosn asked several times (not only here).

    i know theres no definitive answer, althought the GH Wiki seems to answer some as definitive.


    "move along, theres nothing to see here. keep moving" (me in my best policeman voice Laughing )
    GreySage

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    Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:57 am  

    Actually, Rossik, Gary Holian, a.k.a. PSmedger, thinks your idea has some merrit. He's over in Greychat right now if you want to post a question there. Happy

    And I'm really only addicted to the emoticons! Evil Grin
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    Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:21 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    And I'm really only addicted to the emoticons! Evil Grin


    thats real thing, maaan.. Cool

    I just read the FAQ section, and i must say it was my fault to forget about that. Maybe then a expansion to it would be good (im not taking the merit of those involved in the FAQ, please dont take me wrong)
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:52 pm  
    Re: Content Authors

    TheocratIssak wrote:
    Bubbagump is one fine example of an author with Greyhawk stuff. Having read and worked to edit the Oerth Journal aspect for the Expanded Oerth stuff, he should be forced into service.

    Theocrat Issak


    Wow. An endorsement from you is a real compliment, Issak. Thanks!

    Unfortunately, I have to decline.

    I realize I'm on here a lot lately, but given my health issues and wonky work schedule I'm afraid I can't always be around. A careful examination of the dates on my past posts will reveal that I sometimes have to be away from Canonfire for weeks or even months at a time.

    That said, I can help out in some minor ways. Of course I'll be here on the boards to support the community when I can. I'll also contribute the odd article or two if I can ever get them finished (and yes, I'm still working on the 4 or 5 million articles I've mentioned in the past Cool ).

    Further, as you may remember I was chief editor of a certain California-based magazine (that shall remain nameless) a few years ago, so I'll repeat the offer I made some time ago: anyone can PM me if they feel like they have an article that merits a professional editing job. I won't charge for my services unless you're writing for a paying publisher, and I won't write the article for you, but I'll give you the benefit of my (perhaps limited) expertise.

    Of course I remain available to help edit OJ and Canonfire articles anytime the backlog gets too long.

    HOWEVER: Anyone who wants me to edit for them should be prepared for me to say, "No." I'm already editing Crag's massive Celestial Imperium gazetteer, about a dozen smaller articles, and a couple of professional manuscripts. I've also agreed to edit for Pied Piper Publishing on those rare occasions when they need my services. In addition to the editing I still have a company to run, a family, a wife whom I dearly love and on whom I simply must lavish my attention, and a few articles of my own to finish.

    And for what it's worth I agree that Mortellan's not the guy to tap. He's got enough on his plate already. Cebrion could use a little help, though, since taking care of this site can be...difficult...at times. He's doing a great job, but everyone needs a break now and then.
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    Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:01 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    Let me address a few points here. A 20 page submission really is too big for an article anyways...


    Since you mention it, Ceb, I've chatted/posted/talked with a number of people in recent weeks who are working on very large manuscripts for the WoG. Crag's Celestial Imperium manuscript, for example, is about 150 pages long at last count, and my own Khemit piece will probably be about as large if I ever get it done. Such manuscripts are (obviously) too large for even the Oerth Journal.

    I wonder - do you think it would be feasible to put such large works into a file library here on CF? And what would it take to put them in .pdf format? I know there's already a library of sorts; I'm just wondering if it could be utilized a bit more. D'ya think such a library would attract more material if it was highlighted in some way?

    Just thinking out loud...
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    Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:03 pm  

    chaoticprime wrote:
    I want to contribute an NPC. He's a chaotic good drow ranger who fights with two scimitars that he found in two separate places but they look exactly the same and whenever his friends die they actually didn't.

    His name is Smarmy Joe.


    I'm still waiting for the writeup of Kracky the Hooded. Cool
    GreySage

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    Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:09 pm  

    Does Kracky the Hooded have a "pink" war hammer too? Confused
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    Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:24 pm  

    You leave my pink warhammer out of this!
    GreySage

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    Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:27 pm  

    Was that you I saw with Drizzt outside of Athkatla? Shocked
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    Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:00 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Quite true, Cebrion. But that doesn't mean "longer" articles aren't possible, just submitt them to the OJ! Happy


    People are free to submit articles, but I don't know when "The Oerth Journal" will be re-born. I have prospective articles all the way up to issue # 27. If things had been going full steam, issue #26 would probably be coming out about imminently, and #27 would be in its first phase. Unfortunately we are a full two issues behind that schedule.

    bubbagump wrote:
    Since you mention it, Ceb, I've chatted/posted/talked with a number of people in recent weeks who are working on very large manuscripts for the WoG. Crag's Celestial Imperium manuscript, for example, is about 150 pages long at last count, and my own Khemit piece will probably be about as large if I ever get it done. Such manuscripts are (obviously) too large for even the Oerth Journal.


    Don't be so sure about that. It is not like The Oerth Journal has a page count limit or anything. Still, it would be better to offer some large documents as PDFs, which may be what will happen. I've been chatting with Mortellan about making that happen.

    bubbagump wrote:
    I wonder - do you think it would be feasible to put such large works into a file library here on CF? And what would it take to put them in .pdf format? I know there's already a library of sorts; I'm just wondering if it could be utilized a bit more. D'ya think such a library would attract more material if it was highlighted in some way?


    Sure, that is what the Downloads section is for. Perhaps those Top Bar links ought to be made more prominent. Wink We could put up an Article page for each downloadable pdf file as the initial interface, which would provide general information on the file contents and also provide a link to the actual download at the end of the info blurb. Doing the Article page would also call attention to the submitted file, as it could go up on the front page as most Articles do. In the end it is up to Gary, or more accurately, it is up to everyone to convince Gary. Laughing
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    GreySage

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    Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:10 am  

    Sign me up, Cebrion! Cool

    (*says the "kicker off" of chaos*) Evil Grin
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    Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:55 am  
    Manuscripts

    Hi All-
    I think that the large manuscripts like Celestial Empire and even Gumps Expanded Oerth Erypt Region (how is that coming?) and others, can be Oerth Journal-esque.
    Here's what I mean. As the person with the 'name' we can use it to publish those manuscripts. In fact, I think Rick's Magic Items of Greyhawk should have been an Oerth Journal production. I'm thinking along the lines of how Goodman Games does Level Up (their 4e Magazine) or even Open Design doing Kobold Quarterly. So the Oerth Journal presents an Expanded Greyhawk Gazetteer: the Celestial Empire.
    Having extensive InDesign and Illustrator backing, I can make that into a magazine layout and put it together. Shoot, I can 'most likely' make it like the old 2e Gazetteer's like Marklands. But we'd need some artwork - 150 pages of just text is a whole lot of tediousness. We'd also need art to make it look like the old books. Or we can make it look like the newer LGG.
    Especially if we don't have any current issues of the Oerth Journal. This wouldn't be an issue of the OJ, this would be a special presentation of the Oerth Journal.
    If we have a couple of these 20 page articles we could do the same thing. Or an expanded Greyhawk Gazetteer Presented by the Oerth Journal.

    I remember Cebrion stating that the current issue is all edited. What do we need? Do we need layout and design? I can easily do that - I'd just need the logo's, which I might have from working on an earlier OJ.
    Damn, did I just volunteer for something? As a NAVY vet, I should know better (never again volunteer yourself).
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    Last edited by TheocratIssak on Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:47 am; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

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    Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:31 am  

    All Hail the Mighty Theocrat! This is glorious news! Wooo hooo! Happy

    Personally, I like the idea of the "old book" style, but that's just me. Now we just have to convince Glad27, Mortellan, Icarus and a couple of others to contribute an illustration each -- so as not to overload any one person -- and we have a "Special Edition" of the OJ! Evil Grin

    Come on everybody, let Issak feel the "love!" Wooo hooo! Happy Cool Laughing

    (Sorry Rossik, had to highlight, had to!) Wink
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    Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:54 am  

    I'm not one of those "nose up in the air" arteest. While I do a fair amount of commissioned work for individuals and publishing companies, I've been known to throw a drawing or three to sites in need of art.

    I'm pretty strapped right now as I'm trying to get some new art done up for the Con on the Cob convention in October, but after that I'll probably have some time to do some CF art.

    If it's needed, just let me know and I'll see what I can do. (Sounds like we've got some good arteest already in Mortellan and Icarus, which is awesome....everybody knows variety is the spice of life.)
    GreySage

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    Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:08 am  

    Your enthusiasm is greatly appreciated, Glad. Happy

    That's why I suggested a single illustration each. Each one of you has a myriad of projects going on right now. "We" shouldn't ask any one of you to "bare the brunt" of such a project. Wink

    Besides, such a collaboration makes it more Canonfire! Cool
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    Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:43 pm  

    As the author of the Celestial Imperium manuscript plz allow me to add my support to the idea. Wink

    Oerth Journal Special Edition
    Beyond the Flanaess: Celestial Imperium

    Especially if it is pursued in a sourcebook manner as I based the manuscript on the ItU format.

    Unfortunately I am no artist so anyone willing to provide illustrations, overall map (mine is rough) and heraldry help would be much appreciated.

    Bubbagump is currently editing the manuscript and I would be willing to allow artistic individuals a sneek peek to spark inspiration for the artwork and as always of course credit within the manuscript.
    GreySage

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    Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:17 pm  

    I for one cannot wait for the issue to come out, Crag. Really looking forward to it.
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    Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:04 pm  

    Crag wrote:
    Unfortunately I am no artist so anyone willing to provide illustrations, overall map (mine is rough) and heraldry help would be much appreciated. ... and I would be willing to allow artistic individuals a sneek peek to spark inspiration for the artwork and as always of course credit within the manuscript.


    Well, Crag ... we're definately on the right track. As having been recently appointed by Gray as art editor, I will be glad to help work on getting [an] illustrator[s] for your project. I will be wonderfully happy with seeing it as a OJ Special Edition: [Greyhawk Supplement name here]. That would be most excellent.

    Get in touch with me via PM or email, and i will be happy to see if I can use some of my artistic pull to find [an] artist[s].

    And also, to any artists and/or illustrators that might be interested in this project, or any other, feel free to contact me as well, and we can find fun and interesting things for you to work on ... things that best suit your talents and fit to the feel of the submission. Also, if any one wants to submit any pre-exsiting original GH artwork of their own, I would love to see it, and I am certain that we can find a wonderful place for it, and start filling in the newly designated Articles section that is for Art, and art alone.

    So ... will you submit to Canonfire!
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    Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:10 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    I for one cannot wait for the issue to come out, Crag. Really looking forward to it.


    Don't get in too much of a hurry. A project this size takes time. I'm currently about halfway done with the initial edit. When I'm done with that I'll have to return it to Crag for any comments and adjustments he wants me to make, if anything seems to be missing that material will have to be written and added in, any new ideas Crag has come up with will have to be added and edited to fit with what's already been done, and then I'll have to do the final edit. After I'm done somebody will have to do layout and add in any illustrations, copyright text, author's notes and/or forwards (if there are any), and whatever similar details are deemed necessary.

    A professional editing staff working full-time with a professional author would probably take six months to a year (if not more) to put together a book like this, and I only get to work on it by myself during my limited spare time (yes, I know some D&D books get put together in much less than a year, but there's a reason for that Wink ). Fortunately I don't have to worry about art, layout, marketing, or fitting it together with any other products. Assuming we don't hit any snags, don't have to redesign anything, and my free time doesn't evaporate (which it occasionally does), it should be ready maybe by Christmas.

    But I am doing everything I can to expedite the process.

    Oh, and the above count of 150 pages doesn't include some 15-20 pages of additional material Crag recently sent me. Manuscripts have a way of growing (and occasionally shrinking) like that. I'd estimate the final version will probably have somewhere around 150,000-200,000 words. Unless I'm mistaken Crag's manuscript will be the single biggest addition to the World of Greyhawk since the LGG.
    GreySage

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    Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:11 pm  

    Icarus! Icarus! Icarus!

    (I'm the official cheering section)

    Icarus! Icarus! Icarus!

    Evil Grin
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    GreySage

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    Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:16 pm  

    bubbagump wrote:
    Don't get in too much of a hurry. A project this size takes time . . . A professional editing staff . . . would probably take six months to a year . . .


    Stop discouraging us and check you e-mail! Evil Grin

    bubbagump wrote:
    I know some D&D books get put together in much less than a year, but there's a reason for that Wink .


    Yeah, its called WotC! Razz

    (Darn! There I go bashing again rolleyes )
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    Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:24 pm  

    Honestly, I'm a bit surprised that you haven't had more ex-Living Greyhawk mod authors and Triad types showing up and contributing completed, ready to download modules, gazetteer style articles, NPCs, etc. (I figured Creighton would have for sure, since he seems active with the Oerth Journal). I think some of that has to do with burnout and hard feelings about how the end of LG was handed by the Circle and WOTC (it was handled badly, if you ask me) and/or them having moved on to 4e/Pathfinder and Living Forgotten Realms/Golarion. I also think this site would get more submissions from said people if it was just accepted that the biggest LG plot points were canon for Greyhawk. However, that probably involves module event distribution rights which are beyond my ken as I am not a lawyer.

    Speaking for myself, I needed almost a full year off after the end of LG before I wanted to even look at a d20, let alone think about writing anything Greyhawk related (leading a region in communal story telling turned out to be exhausting work, especially during conventions). I still haven't played in ANY D&D game since the end of LG due to lack of time and interest but I'd love to host a weekly game set in the Bandit Kingdoms with the PCs as Iuzians, running around taking the skulls of all the damned Radiant Servants who apparently like to adventure despite there being no major Pelorian presence in the region (yeah, that's me taking a shot at the LG Circle for making that stupid class Open. Consider it a "states rights" issue that I feel that the Circle and WOTC got wrong). I can't wait to take some LG BK mods and make the Iuzians the "good guys"! Unfortunately, having to look for work and spending my time doing other hobby things (I auto-x my mustang) means I have yet to fire up this campaign.

    However, writing my two postfest entries was lots of fun, particularly the adventure-style Dirty Dog Tavern write-up, and I do plan to continue submitting things to the site. I just wish that some things could be uploaded as a PDF. My Dirty Dog Tavern postfest write-up looks so much better as a PDF module than the scrolling 36 page monstrosity that it is now (and I appreciate the editors working with me so that it at least works in the current format).

    Regarding volunteering to help, I have some time at the moment. I have degrees in History and Creative Writing (so I know that history books are full of fiction), I've served as Production Editor for a prestigious 300+ page quarterly literary journal and I served as a triad member for the BK for several years, during which time I edited a shitload of adventures, interactives, stat blocks, etc. However, keeping up with the forums is not my specialty since I don't check this site every day.

    Anyhow, if the site mods want help, they should feel free to bounce something my way. I may be able to help in some way, although I can make no promises. I can be reached best via email: aurdraco at gmail dot com. Ideally, eventually, I'd like to write a gazetteer for the BK that covers 591 to 598. I outta get started on that tomorrow, otherwise, it might not ever get done.

    Casey
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    Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:31 am  

    Well, I have a few thoughts on the various issue raised.

    First, the whip. Don't use Contumely ... Wink. It is in one of my articles it you haven't seen it.

    But in seriousness, for a while I took that job upon myself. I actively promoted postfests, even managed to get an "unoffical" one going- though it ended up being site sponsored. I thought of it more as drum beating, but same thing.

    I think, however, that my greater work in that regard was actively trying to give positive comment on every article that was published here for a while, even if I was not overly impressed. Almost everying has some merit that is praiseworthy. Being ignored is perhaps just as bad as negitive criticism.

    Writing articles has to be fun to be repeated. That, IMO, very much incudes getting positive peer reinforcement. My lack of receipt of the same, at least with respect to my last article, is part, but not all of, the burnout and distraction I've experienced. I have wondered if I wasted my time writing it.

    With that in mind, I think at the momement Mystic-Scholar is probably one of the best candidates for taking upon himself the job of whip because at the moment he seem to have the time and enthusiasm for it.

    As for myself, I'd like to write more. Ceb, did you decided to make that short bow draft I posted in Mystic-Scholar's Flan forum an article? That raises a couple of issues. If the submission link has not been fixed, it should be. I got tired of looking- and having to use both it and separate email. That in itself is a discouragment. Second, what I wrote was very short, only about 250 words. I think that is fine for a low end number if well done. I have seen many short articles that were well done ... as well as long ones that got boring halfway through. But also, it is a reasonable number for someone that does not have a lot of time.

    As it was asked, I have no computer skills, but I am a staff attorney, which makes me to a degree a professional editor. I'm more than happy to lend assistance in that regard (except for massive projects) if anyone who asks for it and I am am not relied upon for content.

    But again, the biggest thing is making it fun ... and boy it can be.

    I too was afraid to make by first submission- but I think that it was an unrealistic fear, and one that is really easy of overcome, simply by reaching out in private or public to another member.

    What got me to enter my first article was Asbsylin(sp?) saying that everyone here has something they wrote for themselves. Be generous and share.
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    Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:08 pm  

    Wolfsire wrote:
    Well, I have a few thoughts on the various issue raised.

    First, the whip. Don't use Contumely ... Wink. It is in one of my articles it you haven't seen it.

    But in seriousness, for a while I took that job upon myself. I actively promoted postfests, even managed to get an "unoffical" one going- though it ended up being site sponsored.


    I merely put it where it deserved to be all along. Wink

    Wolfsire wrote:
    I think, however, that my greater work in that regard was actively trying to give positive comment on every article that was published here for a while, even if I was not overly impressed. Almost everything has some merit that is praiseworthy. Being ignored is perhaps just as bad as negative criticism.


    Well said. No response does give the impression of a lack of interest. Part of that is likely due to the Article Comments bit being down for while. It is back up everyone, and has been for some time. Comment on people's articles! Internet Explorer often has issues with Comments though, so try another browser if you have a problem. I use Firefox exclusively now, and have no problems with anything(it really is a lot better for a variety of reasons, not least of all the add-ons that are available).

    Wolfsire wrote:
    As for myself, I'd like to write more. Ceb, did you decided to make that short bow draft I posted in Mystic-Scholar's Flan forum an article? That raises a couple of issues. If the submission link has not been fixed, it should be. I got tired of looking- and having to use both it and separate email. That in itself is a discouragement. Second, what I wrote was very short, only about 250 words. I think that is fine for a low end number if well done.


    The Submit Article function seems to be working fine, though there are apparently issues with the form and Internet Explorer(Firefox seems to work just fine). Unfortunately, the bow article doesn't ring a bell. E-mail it to me at editors<at>canonfire<dot>com and I'll get it up ASAP. It will actually fit in very well with what is in the queu right now, in that it is not exactly like what is in the queu right now. Wink

    Wolfsire wrote:
    What got me to enter my first article was Asbsylin(sp?) saying that everyone here has something they wrote for themselves. Be generous and share.


    That Abysslin has much wisdom methinks. Wink
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:11 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:48 pm  

    Anything that pumps up activity & submissions to either or both CF and the OJ (which I still have a fondness for) is good in my book. I've promised Gary some stuff...just as soon as I graduate. ;)
    GreySage

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    Sun Sep 27, 2009 4:47 am  

    Nellisir wrote:
    I've promised Gary some stuff...just as soon as I graduate. ;)


    Give us something short, Nellisir, you can squeeze that in. (True, you'll have to miss at least one keg party Evil Grin )

    I'm working on a couple of short things myself, less than 1800 words.

    Join in Nellisir! Cool
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    Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:27 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Nellisir wrote:
    I've promised Gary some stuff...just as soon as I graduate. ;)


    Give us something short, Nellisir, you can squeeze that in. (True, you'll have to miss at least one keg party Evil Grin )

    I'm working on a couple of short things myself, less than 1800 words.

    Join in Nellisir! Cool


    Hey, I resurrected a ten-page "Oerth and Altar" article from the depths of my hard drive a few months ago - it's just waiting for the Oerth Journal!

    I did find a few notes lats night on the settlements around Lo Nakar...now if I could only find the map....

    Maybe I should look for it, instead of waiting for it to show up on my desk. I think I've got a "Greyhawk maps" folder around....
    Site Theocrat

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    Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:23 pm  

    Hi all -
    Greyhawk Maps? Did Nellsir say Greyhawk Maps...? Gimme. Gimme. Gimme. We've got Oerthman going through all the ones that I have had and sorted them out on GreyhawkOnline.com/maps. If you pass along your maps then we can have even more for Oerthman to have to sort.

    I referenced a 'wish' to be able to do what we're doing with the maps in regards to the LG Mods. I'd love to even see a list of all the LG Mods that were published. If we could then even get a synopsis. If not all the Mods then even just a few. Esp. if as a Triad member you should know at least which ones where in your region and if a synopsis is possible it would be awesome.

    If we are serious about doing a special edition of the OJ, then we need to look at what we would be posted in the edition. It need not be something as large as Bubba's opus. It can be two or three articles - but they would need to be related. Things like mini regional gazetteers, a gods special or a complete regional gaz or a Dyvers Gazetteer with an adventure (it doesn't have to be Dyvers). I don't want it to be a mish-mash of topics, that is what a normal issue of the OJ is about. Plus, I'm not editing. I'll only do the layout from Adobe's InDesign.

    Be Well. Be Well Given.
    Theocrat Issak
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    Theocrat Issak
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    Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:16 am  

    TheocratIssak wrote:
    Plus, I'm not editing. I'll only do the layout from Adobe's InDesign.


    What?! You know InDesign?! You bloody InDesign lurker! Razz That would have been nice to know a long time ago.

    As to the current topic of discussion, see here for some more information and requests:

    ***Canonfire! Special PDF Format- Open Call For Designers***
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    Adept Greytalker

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    Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:56 pm  

    TheocratIssak wrote:
    Hi all -
    Greyhawk Maps? Did Nellsir say Greyhawk Maps...? Gimme. Gimme. Gimme. We've got Oerthman going through all the ones that I have had and sorted them out on GreyhawkOnline.com/maps. If you pass along your maps then we can have even more for Oerthman to have to sort.

    Paper maps, not digitized. Just doodles of my own (where the underdark is; hypothetical migration-era GH with ur-flan nations & etc.) And yes, my Lo Nakar regional map. Also my Mhajapor map.
    GreySage

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    Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:03 pm  

    I was just reading your Lo Nakar article this morning. A map of it would be nice. Can the map be scanned onto your computer? Confused
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    Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:28 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    I was just reading your Lo Nakar article this morning. A map of it would be nice. Can the map be scanned onto your computer? Confused

    It can. I'm not wholly sure I want to do that, but since it might be awhile before I can draw a proper one, it might be a good idea. It was a "concept" map I made with the Campaign Mapper program in 2e Core Rules accessory. I found the paper printouts but not the original files.

    You were reading the "Overview of Lo Nakar" here on CF? The original article is several pages longer, but harder to find, and needs to be rewritten. It wasn't submitted here for a reason. ;)
    GreySage

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    Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:48 pm  

    Yep! Sure did. Can the "original" article be downloaded from someplace else? Confused

    And the map would be nice too. You should share it with us. Cool
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    Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:46 pm  

    Nellisir wrote:
    The original article is several pages longer, but harder to find, and needs to be rewritten. It wasn't submitted here for a reason. ;)

    Is the original the one you posted on the old AOL GH board? I think I have a copy squirreled away somewhere.

    Ah, there it is:
    Code:
    Subj:  Lo Nakar
    Date:  97-04-20 17:13:46 EDT
    From:  Nellisir       


    Note to self: install Google Desktop search ASAP...
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    Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:26 am  

    Oerthman wrote:
    Nellisir wrote:
    The original article is several pages longer, but harder to find, and needs to be rewritten. It wasn't submitted here for a reason. ;)

    Is the original the one you posted on the old AOL GH board? I think I have a copy squirreled away somewhere.

    Yep. I'm not sure that it's "better" than the overview; not having read either recently, I rather think I just condensed and edited, with the intention of going back and reworking it into a full gaz. style article at some point in the future.

    Still working on that....

    Quote:
    Ah, there it is:
    Code:
    Subj:  Lo Nakar
    Date:  97-04-20 17:13:46 EDT
    From:  Nellisir       


    Note to self: install Google Desktop search ASAP...

    Twelve years young! ;)
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    Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:12 pm  

    Nellisir wrote:
    The original article ...

    Oerthman wrote:
    ... the old AOL GH board? ... squirreled away somewhere.


    Shocked Surprised Shocked Shocked Surprised Shocked
    Oh ... My ... God!!! I knew there were guys like you hanging around, with secret little tidbits of GH stuff hidden and cached away!! I knew you were both members of the Silent Ones of Weoland, keeping information from the masses!!

    <chuckle> I kid. But seriously, I do have a members list of the old AOL area from August 31st, 1997. And both of you, Oerthman and Nellisir, are on it ... along with some other very longstanding names. (Like, Aeolius, ericlboyd, ggygax, joebloch [The Greyhawk Grognard], rjkuntz, Tamerlain, tsrsage, and many others.)

    The gist of it is: What kinds of old AOL GH stuff do you guys have stored up? And what am I going to have to bribe you with to do a little file sharing?

    Icarus
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    Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:50 pm  

    Icarus wrote:
    The gist of it is: What kinds of old AOL GH stuff do you guys have stored up? And what am I going to have to bribe you with to do a little file sharing?
    Icarus


    Um, send me your email address? I've got all the old folder logs but two (corrupted and do not exist at all, insofar as I know - fortunately relatively late in the AOL history, and probably filled with crap) plus the "Best of AOL GH" compediums, which I picked up and ran for awhile. Plus other stuff.

    Oh, and that reminds me, I found a printout of Eric L Boyd's notes on my Wee Jas article for OJ7 and the same for Erik Mona's Nerull article (never published). He had the Faiths & Avatars format down to a "T".
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    Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:13 pm  
    Just a good razzing

    Nellisir wrote:

    Um, send me your email address?


    Happy The most hilarious part, is that you've been a member of CF! for all of these years, and still you seem to have forgotten the little yellow buttons at the bottom of the forum post. "PM", "yahoo", "email" ... Shocked

    I couldn't help but give you a good joshing in public. Razz Laughing Wink





    [edit: Just so everyone knows ... I sent a email to him before I posted here... I wouldn't want to have mean-spirited fun.]
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    Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:48 pm  

    Nellisir wrote:
    I've got all the old folder logs but two (corrupted and do not exist at all, insofar as I know - fortunately relatively late in the AOL history, and probably filled with crap)

    Let me guess - #32 and #33, right? Same ones I'm missing.

    Oh, well.

    I wonder if there are any issues in posting some of this old stuff either to CF or some other site. Be good to get it mirrored out there - right now, a couple of HD crashes could make it go away (or at least make it a LOT harder to find).

    There are some gems in there - like Iquander's riff on A Few of My Favorite Things:

    Paladin cowboys with magic six-shooters,
    Half-buried starships whose robots kill looters,
    Crumbling empires with mad Overkings,
    These are a few of my favorite things.....

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    Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:51 pm  
    Re: Just a good razzing

    Icarus wrote:
    Nellisir wrote:

    Um, send me your email address?


    Happy The most hilarious part, is that you've been a member of CF! for all of these years, and still you seem to have forgotten the little yellow buttons at the bottom of the forum post. "PM", "yahoo", "email" ... Shocked

    I couldn't help but give you a good joshing in public. Razz Laughing Wink

    You asked me what you could bribe you with. Some people have different emails for different purposes.

    And, yeah, I've always more or less ignored those buttons. Didn't realize they actually worked.

    My www button leads to a website that hasn't been updated in over 5 years.

    EDIT: And my email button goes to an email I haven't checked in 10 months. <sigh> Fixed it now, I think. Should go to gmail.com instead of comcast.net


    Last edited by Nellisir on Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:09 pm  

    Oerthman wrote:
    Nellisir wrote:
    I've got all the old folder logs but two (corrupted and do not exist at all, insofar as I know - fortunately relatively late in the AOL history, and probably filled with crap)

    Let me guess - #32 and #33, right? Same ones I'm missing.


    Ah, no, actually. If you've got #32 and #33, you might have some of the ultra-rares! I'm missing #27 (actually, I've got a file, but it's noted as "partial") and #29, which I'm certain was corrupted at the source or very close to it.

    For those watching: Each folder on the AOL message board only held 500 messages, at which point the folder was closed and another one was opened. Each folder generated a log of the 500 messages. My recollection was that, after log #30, AOL went to an "unlimited" message board system, and no longer generated logs. A few people attempted to (or succeeded) in creating logs after this point by simply copying messages into a text file, since the basic message format hadn't changed, but it wasn't maintained for long and I'm not sure if those files were ever made widely available online. -I've- never had a copy of them.

    But Oerthman might. :)

    Quote:
    Oh, well.
    I wonder if there are any issues in posting some of this old stuff either to CF or some other site. Be good to get it mirrored out there - right now, a couple of HD crashes could make it go away (or at least make it a LOT harder to find).


    I've emailed the logs & other material to at least 3 people over the years in an effort to get it placed on CF! or the Oerth Journal site. I'd love it if it were more available.
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    Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:16 pm  

    But at least your www link goes somewhere. Wink

    Best of AOL files for those who are interested HERE

    Yep, they were "hidden" right in the Downloads section HERE.

    I do think there are other files in addition to these. The Best of AOL files strip out the inconsequential chatter from everything. Knowing how GREYchat currently is, that must have been quite a task! Razz

    (D'oh! The links are all broken! I hate it when that happens! GRRR! Must contact somebody about this.)

    [bangs head against monitor]
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    Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:21 pm  

    Nellisir wrote:
    Ah, no, actually. If you've got #32 and #33, you might have some of the ultra-rares! I'm missing #27 (actually, I've got a file, but it's noted as "partial") and #29, which I'm certain was corrupted at the source or very close to it.

    Sorry, not clear. I *don't* have 32 and 33. I do have 27, but looks like my copy of 29 is corrupted, too. Crud. Confused


    Quote:
    For those watching: Each folder on the AOL message board only held 500 messages, at which point the folder was closed and another one was opened. Each folder generated a log of the 500 messages. My recollection was that, after log #30, AOL went to an "unlimited" message board system, and no longer generated logs.

    More or less my recollection, too. Each message was limited in length, too - less than 1k, since most of the 500-message logs are under 500k.
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    Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:28 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    But at least your www link goes somewhere. Wink

    Best of AOL files for those who are interested HERE

    Yep, they were "hidden" right in the Downloads section HERE.

    [bangs head against monitor]

    Where are 7-12? :)

    Quote:
    I do think the are other files in addition to these. The Best of AOL files strip out the inconsequential chatter from everything. Knowing how GREYchat currently is, that must have been quite a task! Razz


    The first logs were actually pretty awesome. Somewhere around the mid-teens to twenties it went pretty far downhill. I got up to #12 and quit, in part because I could see a time coming on when I'd have to combine 2 or 3 logs to get twenty pages of decent material.

    It actually wasn't that bad of a job. Taking out the hard returns was the worst of it. I wasn't ever clever enough to figure out a way to automate it without ending up with Huge Chunk O' Text syndrome, which was worse. Otherwise it was just going through and deleting everything I thought was crap, cutting and pasting related messages together, and very minor editing.

    It should be pointed out that I didn't start the BoGs; someone else did logs 3-7 or so; I just filled in the missing ones and went on from there. I think that led into editing the Oerth Journal.


    Last edited by Nellisir on Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:35 pm  

    Oerthman wrote:
    Nellisir wrote:
    Ah, no, actually. If you've got #32 and #33, you might have some of the ultra-rares! I'm missing #27 (actually, I've got a file, but it's noted as "partial") and #29, which I'm certain was corrupted at the source or very close to it.

    Sorry, not clear. I *don't* have 32 and 33. I do have 27, but looks like my copy of 29 is corrupted, too. Crud. Confused


    I -suspect-, but have never been able to confirm, that one or two uncorrupted copies of #29 existed. I'm not sure how or why. I also suspect that if there's additional "ultra-rare" material out there, Smedger might have it. I've forgotten if there's a reason I suspect that, or i just assume he's hiding something. He's -never- been what you would call "active", except in chat.

    There's probably a goodly trove of material from Greytalk, but I have almost no files related to it.

    Edit: Fixed "Greychat" to "Greytalk"


    Last edited by Nellisir on Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:43 pm  

    Nellisir wrote:
    I -suspect-, but have never been able to confirm, that one or two uncorrupted copies of #29 existed. I'm not sure how or why. I also suspect that if there's additional "ultra-rare" material out there, Smedger might have it. I've forgotten if there's a reason I suspect that, or i just assume he's hiding something. He's -never- been what you would call "active", except in chat.

    I've been trying to get the pre-10/1995 Greytalk archives from him for years, and I'd love to take a crack at converting the new archives to a different format (I think they are in some funky Lotus Notes format) to get them back online. Maybe it's time for a road trip to Boston for some more... rigorous...persuasion. Evil Grin (assuming he's still there)

    Quote:
    There's probably a goodly trove of material from GreyChat, but I have almost no files related to it.

    Assuming you mean the Thursday night chats, I dunno - the times I've been there (not many, I admit) there hasn't seemed to be whole lot of usable stuff. Mostly just kicking ideas around.
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    Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:48 pm  

    Oerthman wrote:
    Nellisir wrote:
    I -suspect-, but have never been able to confirm, that one or two uncorrupted copies of #29 existed. I'm not sure how or why. I also suspect that if there's additional "ultra-rare" material out there, Smedger might have it. I've forgotten if there's a reason I suspect that, or i just assume he's hiding something. He's -never- been what you would call "active", except in chat.

    I've been trying to get the pre-10/1995 Greytalk archives from him for years, and I'd love to take a crack at converting the new archives to a different format (I think they are in some funky Lotus Notes format) to get them back online. Maybe it's time for a road trip to Boston for some more... rigorous...persuasion. Evil Grin (assuming he's still there)

    I could probably hit Boston next time I go home/to New Hampshire.

    Quote:
    There's probably a goodly trove of material from GreyChat, but I have almost no files related to it.

    Assuming you mean the Thursday night chats, I dunno - the times I've been there (not many, I admit) there hasn't seemed to be whole lot of usable stuff. Mostly just kicking ideas around.[/quote]

    No, sorry, meant Greytalk. Greychat is a morass of aimless pontification, enlivened only by my occasional appearances to pimp work more than a decade old, and you.

    PS: Could you email me log #27 when you get a chance? nellisir at gmail.com Thanks.
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    Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:50 pm  

    Nathan: I wouldn't mind a copy of those too, please :D

    If someone besides Gary had a complete copy of the Greytalk's emails, we could re-create the GT Archive via putting the collection online somewhere (Issak?) and then hitting it with google. It would be WONDERFUL to get that back online again!
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    Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:00 pm  

    grodog wrote:
    Nathan: I wouldn't mind a copy of those too, please :D

    If someone besides Gary had a complete copy of the Greytalk's emails, we could re-create the GT Archive via putting the collection online somewhere (Issak?) and then hitting it with google. It would be WONDERFUL to get that back online again!


    I think I can put everything I have online tomorrow. I think my wiki is still active, and if it is, I've got oodles of storage space.

    On a slightly different topic, I find it ...interesting that ultimately, my longest-lasting contribution to GH lore may be several titles for Wee Jas. ;)
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    Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:09 pm  

    grodog wrote:
    If someone besides Gary had a complete copy of the Greytalk's emails, we could re-create the GT Archive via putting the collection online somewhere (Issak?) and then hitting it with google. It would be WONDERFUL to get that back online again!

    I have October 1995-October 1997 in plain text, and I've been archiving the digests on my gmail account since the end of October 2005. Nothing in between, though. I had a HD crash that wiped out a bunch of stuff, and the backups were bad. Embarassed

    If I can get a copy of the old archives from Gary, I can try to convert it or parse out the individual emails.
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    Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:19 pm  

    Oerthman wrote:


    Paladin cowboys with magic six-shooters,
    Half-buried starships whose robots kill looters,
    Crumbling empires with mad Overkings,
    These are a few of my favorite things.....


    Thanks for sharing that. Happy
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    Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:20 am  

    Wolfsire wrote:
    Oerthman wrote:


    Paladin cowboys with magic six-shooters,
    Half-buried starships whose robots kill looters,
    Crumbling empires with mad Overkings,
    These are a few of my favorite things.....


    Thanks for sharing that. Happy


    I emailed Erik to see if he minds if I repost the whole thing. I'm not completely comfortable reposting someone's work like that without permission, even if it is a 'throwaway' post from 12 years ago.
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    Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:47 am  

    Oerthman wrote:
    I emailed Erik to see if he minds if I repost the whole thing. I'm not completely comfortable reposting someone's work like that without permission, even if it is a 'throwaway' post from 12 years ago.


    [rant]Having thought about this for some time, I've concluded that a)since the messages were posted publicly, b) known to be logged and available publicly, c) still available publicly (more or less), reprinting shouldn't be an issue, provided you attribute the source and aren't intentionally misrepresenting the author.

    Furthermore, what's the point of the logs if the information can't be shared? If (hypothetically) Iquander says no, don't post it, should it be stricken from any copies of the logs you have?

    There is a point at which a person must cede control over statements they have made public. If you don't want to do that, don't post. That's been my rule for years - if I don't want it repeated, I don't post it.

    Sorry to rant, but I had to wrestle with this back when I was compiling the BoG, and some people thought I should email everyone involved to get their permission -again- to include stuff. It just gets ridiculous after a while.[/rant]
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    Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:37 am  

    Nellisir wrote:
    Furthermore, what's the point of the logs if the information can't be shared?


    Ethically, you are probably right. Legally, I think there is a difference between passing around something in its original context and extracting it for posting elsewhere.

    Quote:
    Sorry to rant, but I had to wrestle with this back when I was compiling the BoG, and some people thought I should email everyone involved to get their permission -again- to include stuff. It just gets ridiculous after a while.[/rant]


    No apology necessary. I tend to be a little paranoid about this, having been involved in one nasty catfight over plagiarism already.
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    Last edited by Oerthman on Thu Oct 01, 2009 12:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:57 am  

    Oerthman wrote:

    There are some gems in there - like Iquander's riff on A Few of My Favorite Things:

    Paladin cowboys with magic six-shooters,
    Half-buried starships whose robots kill looters,
    Crumbling empires with mad Overkings,
    These are a few of my favorite things.....

    Major embarassment. This verse is actually from TSRRoger (Roger Moore), not Iquander. Embarassed

    I went back and checked the original AOL log (#30, if you are interested), and the "Favorite Things" filk was actually a spontaneous collaboration between Iquander, TSRRoger, and Tamerlain. It was posted as individual verses. The only post with all of them is a response by ACERERAK quoting them. rolleyes

    For some reason, when I saved the post, I only tagged it with Iquander's name. Mea culpa. Embarassed
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