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    Canonfire :: View topic - The Horned Lands
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    The Horned Lands
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:24 am  
    The Horned Lands

    According to this entry in the Greyhawk wiki the Horned Society was reclaimed from Iuz at some point.

    http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Horned_Society

    Can someone point me to the canonical reference to this event?
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:11 pm  

    Hopefully someone with greater knowledge can chime in and answer this one, because I'm quite curious myself. The only thing I can think of is that this may be a Living Greyhawk development or something similar.
    GreySage

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    Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:55 pm  

    Possibly, but as far as I know, Iuz still rules it. I'm not sure who wrote that originally; it might have been transferred from Wikipedia without too much editing.

    I think the way it's supposed to be read is that the Horned Society is a former independent nation which has since been reclaimed by Iuz (who ruled it before his imprisonment beneath Castle Greyhawk), and is now known as the Horned Lands.

    They didn't mean the Horned Society reclaimed it, but that Iuz reclaimed it.
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:19 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    Possibly, but as far as I know, Iuz still rules it. I'm not sure who wrote that originally; it might have been transferred from Wikipedia without too much editing.

    I think the way it's supposed to be read is that the Horned Society is a former independent nation which has since been reclaimed by Iuz (who ruled it before his imprisonment beneath Castle Greyhawk), and is now known as the Horned Lands.

    They didn't mean the Horned Society reclaimed it, but that Iuz reclaimed it.


    Makes sense to me. But just wait 'til Greyhawk: 676 CY comes out.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:51 pm  

    I'm sure Rasgon has the right of it. That's how I'd read it also.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:04 am  

    I sorta thought that too, but then when you read about the hierarchs, you come across things like this under Warduke:

    "Warduke came to prominence after the Greyhawk Wars, spreading terror among the soldiers, fighting societies, and mercenaries of the Flanaess, from the Solnor Ocean to the Barrier Peaks. Warduke was quickly recruited by the Unnameable Hierarch to aid in rebuilding the Horned Society, and was eventually made a Hierarch himself."

    and this under Erac's Cousin:

    "There is speculation (by Erik Mona) that Erac's Cousin may have become a Hierarch of the Horned Society. Many of the Hierarchs were killed by Iuz's vengeance, but one was able to return. This being, known only as the "Unnameable Hierarch" was reborn as a greater devil thanks to a pact with the archfiend Baalzebul."

    which talk about the rebuilding of the Horned Society after the Greyhawk Wars. Perhaps they only exist as a secret society now, though, without any actual territory. Or, they control their former lands secretly via manipulation (blackmail, enchantment, etc.).
    GreySage

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    Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:30 am  

    IronGolem wrote:
    Perhaps they only exist as a secret society now, though, without any actual territory.


    That's right. That's from the organizations section in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer.

    Quote:

    Or, they control their former lands secretly via manipulation (blackmail, enchantment, etc.).


    No, they don't.
    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:23 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    IronGolem wrote:
    Or, they control their former lands secretly via manipulation (blackmail, enchantment, etc.).


    No, they don't.


    But they should.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:31 pm  

    I know in several second edition works they explain that 2 Hierarchs survived the ambush/slaughter at the Blood Moon Festival:

    Nezmaejan in the Fellreev Forest: he was away at Ixworth at the time of the attack...

    Andrade in Greyhawk City: not sure if he was in Greyhawk at the time of the attack, or if he came there afterwards....

    Anyway, in Greyhawk, the Adventure Begins; they mention that these two rise up another Horned Society agent (her name escapes me right now, as I'm at work) to serve as a Third Hierarch...she resides in Greyhawk under the 'nickname' of "The Night Dame" (she was also in the Greyhawk Adventures Hardback book).

    The Erik Mona stuff; I believe came up in the Living Greyhawk era....I'm not sure exactly when.....I like the idea of it though...
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:42 pm  

    You are probably talking about Guiliana Mortidus (Clr12; Greyhawk Adventures, p. 49; The Adventure Begins, p. 91).
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:54 am  

    Yep, she's the one....thanks Cebrion!
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:52 am  

    Guiliana got a 3.5 revision in a recent issue of the OJ, although the number escapes me at the moment.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:46 pm  

    OJ #24, page 16.
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    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:16 pm  

    rasgon wrote:

    I think the way it's supposed to be read is that the Horned Society is a former independent nation which has since been reclaimed by Iuz (who ruled it before his imprisonment beneath Castle Greyhawk), and is now known as the Horned Lands.

    They didn't mean the Horned Society reclaimed it, but that Iuz reclaimed it.


    "The name can also be applied to a former independent nation of the Flanaess, formerly part of Iuz's kingdom, which has since been reclaimed and is now known as the Horned Lands."

    Yes. The lands were originally part of Iuz, rebelled and became the Horned Society during Iuz's imprisonment, and were retaken by Iuz as the opening act of the Greyhawk Wars (although it was for a while ruled by a puppet government and not officially claimed as part of Iuz's empire).

    Interestingly, in Temple of Elemental Evil, it lists Iuz's capital city as Molag. Given their placement, they were probably the most productive part of Iuz's pre-imprisonment lands. One can imagine he was peeved to discover the loss of these lands when he escaped imprisonment, and their recapture in the Wars was something long planned.
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:23 pm  

    The only thing I have seen has been this map which has them back in power. Something I have enjoyed seeing.
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:59 pm  

    Kirt wrote:
    Interestingly, in Temple of Elemental Evil, it lists Iuz's capital city as Molag. Given their placement, they were probably the most productive part of Iuz's pre-imprisonment lands. One can imagine he was peeved to discover the loss of these lands when he escaped imprisonment, and their recapture in the Wars was something long planned.


    That is interesting, though I'd probably chalk it up to a typo, especially considering at the time of that adventure the Horned Society was independent. In the LGG it says that Molag was made Iuz's "Summer Capital" when he originally seized it from the Bandit Kingdoms.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:45 am  

    Molag may have been the original capital, and Dorakaa the new(and improved!) capitol.
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    GreySage

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    Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:26 am  

    That was originally discussed in Artifact of Evil. From page 91:

    Quote:
    Being weakened from the long imprisonment, and needing to regroup his followers and gather more, Iuz had had to smile and show friendship. Yes, he loved it when the "Dreaded Hierarchs" made Molag, His Molag, summer capital of the Realm, their seat of power. Of course! He was pleased when their so-called Horned Society was there to combat the stinking fools who served good--after all, he had been detained elsewhere, hadn't he? Someone had to carry on the fight! When former allies swore fealty to the Hierarchs, Iuz had never reproached them. Never! That would have bespoken possible enmity, and Iuz was on good terms with all those who served Evil, wasn't he? Of course, he was anything but! But he needed to gain strength, and time.


    See also page 189:

    Quote:
    "Mole, you are assigned to work with Olive of my Lesser Six. You are to take a force of buheer and nonuz. You will command them, My regiment of Black Death, and a company of drow. You are to invade the lands of the Hierarchs, raise the wild Uroz and free reavers there, and march on Molag. I want My city back!"
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:16 pm  

    smillan_31 wrote:

    That is interesting, though I'd probably chalk it up to a typo, especially considering at the time of that adventure the Horned Society was independent.


    Quite possibly a typo, though as rasgon cites it seems to have been part of Gygaxian intent. Not clear whether it is meant to apply to TSR Greyhawk in addition to Gygax novel Greyhawk.

    I did a little digging:

    1980 WoG Gazetteer
    Political entry on Iuz (country) lists capital as Dorakaa

    1981 WoG Guide
    Political entry on Iuz (country) is cut & paste from Gazetteer and lists capital as Dorakaa. But deity entry on Iuz (god) says that he "rules...from the cursed city of Molag."

    1985 ToEE
    Entry on Iuz (god) is cut & paste from Guide deity entry and says he "rules...from the cursed city of Molag."

    1988 Greyhawk Adventures
    Entry on Iuz (god) is mostly cut & paste from Guide deity entry but revises part of text to read that he holds "court in his capital city of Molag..."


    Now, as smillan_31 says, at the time of these references (post-imprisonment and pre-Wars) Iuz does not rule the Horned Society Lands. So, one can just consider the reference to Molag to be a typo that got propagated across sources. However, given that Iuz did rule the area of the Horned Society both pre-imprisonment and post-Wars, and given the Gygaxian intent cited by rasgon, I find it very satisfying if not strictly provable to say that Molag was the old, pre-imprisonment, capital.
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    GreySage

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    Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:33 am  

    I think the phrase "summer capital" means that Molag was one of two capitals he had, his court moving between Molag and Dorakaa depending on the time of year. It might have been a fix that Gygax invented to explain away an earlier, embarrassing typo.

    Speaking of typos, I think the phrase "buheer and nonuz" is confusing. If by "nonuz" he meant "noniz," Iuz apparently commands a mixed force of bugbears and gnomes, which is an odd combination. I guess they're both stealthy?
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:17 am  

    Maybe they toss the gnomes over enemy shield walls, although I'm sure a gnome's red pointy hat could pierce any shield wall.
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Nov 10, 2009 2:43 pm  

    The gnomes are provisions for the bugbears.

    Nonuz is good nuz for Iuz.

    Actually, "nonuz are also gnolls" in AoE according to
    http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=4327
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    Last edited by Kirt on Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:09 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    I think the phrase "summer capital" means that Molag was one of two capitals he had, his court moving between Molag and Dorakaa depending on the time of year. It might have been a fix that Gygax invented to explain away an earlier, embarrassing typo.


    Interesting that Molag would be the summer capital, not the winter capital, since Dorakaa is father north.

    Speculations:

    Molag is the summer capital because it is closer to the front lines of the Bandit Kingdoms, Shield Lands, and Furyondy. Iuz wants to be closer to the action during "campaign season" whereas in winter he withdraws to Dorakaa because there are no open conflicts.

    Molag is the summer capital because in the winter the Veng sometimes freezes enough to allow Molag to be assaulted from Furyondy

    Molag is the summer capital because even though it is further south, it is in a cold, snowbound, continental climate. Dorakaa is farther north but does not get as cold because of the moderating influence of the Whystil.

    Molag is the summer capital because there is little food there in the winter (food being based on raiding, hunting, and some herding and crops) whereas in Dorakaa fishing continues throughout the winter.

    Abundant water means summer in Dorakaa is humid and full of mosquitos and disease, whereas Molag is drier and healthier.

    Other thoughts?
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:33 pm  

    Nope, but I like the first guess.
    GreySage

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    Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:28 am  

    I prefer the first guess too. Iuz had two capitals more because his empire was so large and chaotic that he needed to show himself in multiple parts of it in order to effectively administrate it and keep the populace cowed than because of any real concern with the weather. I'm sure both Molag and Dorakaa are pretty unpleasant during the winter, and it's not like demons (or, for that matter, orcs) really need to vacation in the tropics, or that Iuz would care about their feelings if they told him they preferred warmer weather. As the Lord of Pain, he might put his winter capital in the harshest location just to increase the suffering in his court.

    I rewrote and greatly expanded the wiki article, by the way; it should be more clear now.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:19 pm  

    In Living Greyhawk, Furyondy captured/liberated Molag. Perhaps a Furyondian Triad-type or player could confirm the details of these events.

    During LG, Nezmajen was busy rebuilding the new-and-improved HS from Darkpool via agents in Hallorn (he secretly helped to get the Lesser Boneheart Aundurach driven out of Hallorn by Guardian General Hok, thus giving the Warfields a capital. The deposed Earl of the Tangles was ineffectual at raising a sizable enough army to do this).

    By the end of LG, Britt, a Circle member, was working on rebuilding the HS. We made Xavendra, former priestess of Iuz (Groucester) a convert of Nerull due to her relationship with a vampire and she became a Heirarch (we always played her as more NE than CE). I believe that we may have also made a former-PC into a Heirarch after that former-PC became an Iuzian-hating lich (that's a long story, but involves an egotistical PC foolishly taunting the Bonehearts during several adventures [leaving messages in their research facilities, etc.], Boneshadow Keak pwning said PC with a glasstrike + quickened shatter combo, the now-NPC being put back together and tortured by the Bonehearts, the NPC being rescued by Pazuzu due to another PC's wish, and the NPC becoming a lich to help gain enough power to seek revenge on the Bonehearts. Yeah, we liked to mess with our players in the BK, kept them scared, even the players of 16th level PCs Evil Grin).

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