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Apprentice Greytalker
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 116
From: Australia
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Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:03 pm
Timeline of the Greyhawk Wars
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This is something that has been niggling at the back of my mind for some time so I thought I might gain some different perspectives. Does anybody have a timeline of the war that actually works? My own is still a work in progress and a number of discrepencies have arisen. The main problem that I have is this: I'm curious to know whether anybody else has a problem with the Harvester 584 date for the Day of the Great Signing. Page 24 of the history from the Greyhawk Wars Boxed Set states that:
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....In the month of Harvester, the Great Council (as it came to be known) convened.
The proposed truce, though simple in theory, proved to be an enormous undertaking, what with the countless ambassadors present. In the six months of the Great Council, intrigues abounded as each side attempted to gain the upper hand. The conference nearly collapsed more than once when ambassadors took umbrage over some real or imagined slight.
The final act of the immense drama of war occurred on the Day of the Great Signing.... |
This would appear to make the Great Day of the Signing in Coldeven of 585 CY, not Harvester of 584! So are we to take from this that the war on all fronts was hopelassly stalemated by Harvester of 584 CY and finally concluded in 585 CY? Or did someone just stuff up when they were writing a supplement somewhere to arrive at a 584 date?
Ta.
Damien.
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Master Greytalker
Joined: Jun 25, 2007
Posts: 951
From: Neck Deep in the Viscounty of Verbobonc
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Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:56 pm
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Perhaps it's something similar to what happened with the Declaration of Independence. While the wording of the document was "approved" on July 4, 1776, the actual document wasn't signed until sometime later.
Or perhaps the "official" signing that resulted in the deaths of Tenser and Otiluke was just a public ceremony and the actual signing had already occurred or was still being negotiated by some parties.
I know, that's stretching a bit, but it's the best explanation I could come up with. A more likely answer is that somebody just didn't think it through carefully enough and so left us with yet another detail to argue about.
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GreySage
Joined: Oct 06, 2008
Posts: 2788
From: South-Central Pennsylvania
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Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:46 am
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bubbagump wrote: |
A more likely answer is that somebody just didn't think it through carefully enough and so left us with yet another detail to argue about. |
I'd have to agree with that assessment.
While Bubbagump's two hypothesis make a lot of sense and are quite capable of happening -- as seen in his real world comparison -- to believe that someone at WotC actually put that much fore-thought into the story's plot would be a bit of a stretch for me.
Just my two cents. _________________ Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
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Novice
Joined: Oct 31, 2001
Posts: 1
From: London, UK
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Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:45 pm
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I could never get the timeline to work; I worked on my own chronology for it for quite a while, but eventually just got frustrated and annoyed that the author couldn't be bothered to make sure the dates added up.
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Master Greytalker
Joined: Jun 25, 2007
Posts: 951
From: Neck Deep in the Viscounty of Verbobonc
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Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:48 pm
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thefishgod wrote: |
I could never get the timeline to work; I worked on my own chronology for it for quite a while, but eventually just got frustrated and annoyed that the author couldn't be bothered to make sure the dates added up. |
Believe me, there are many MANY of us here who can sympathize with you, not only in this matter but in plenty of others.
Fun, ain't it?
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Apprentice Greytalker
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
Posts: 116
From: Australia
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Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:10 pm
The Day of the Great Signing
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I agree that it could have been a formal ratification of an earlier accord, although I'm curious to know if it actually says in any supplement that the Day of the Great Signing was actually in Harvester of 584. Could there have been a six-month period of "ceasefire" that continually went pearshaped for a 585 CY settlement? There is considerable historic (and current) precedent for such a development in the real world so why not Oerth as well. Anyone?
My gut feeling is that a later author may have skimmed the document from the boxed set and not interpreted it sensibly. I think it may be Iuz the Evil that mucked up the timing of the fall of Grabford and near destruction of the Furyondian fleet on the Whyestil by a significant margin too.
I haven't given up on my timeline yet. I'm sure you would all agree that the last six months is where it really gets messy. I'd be happy to post it when I finally do finish if anyone is keen to take a look.
Damien.
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GreySage
Joined: Oct 06, 2008
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From: South-Central Pennsylvania
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Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:15 pm
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Always interested in such works, Damien.
Let us see it when you're finished. _________________ Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
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Grandmaster Greytalker
Joined: Nov 07, 2004
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From: Mt. Smolderac
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Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:19 pm
Re: The Day of the Great Signing
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Damien wrote: |
I agree that it could have been a formal ratification of an earlier accord, although I'm curious to know if it actually says in any supplement that the Day of the Great Signing was actually in Harvester of 584. Could there have been a six-month period of "ceasefire" that continually went pearshaped for a 585 CY settlement? There is considerable historic (and current) precedent for such a development in the real world so why not Oerth as well. Anyone? |
Three other sources (FtA, LGG, and PGtGH) specifically state that the day of the Great Signing was in Harvester of 584
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My gut feeling is that a later author may have skimmed the document from the boxed set and not interpreted it sensibly. I think it may be Iuz the Evil that mucked up the timing of the fall of Grabford and near destruction of the Furyondian fleet on the Whyestil by a significant margin too. |
Your gut is probably right, since all those sources came out after GH Wars. Can you give more detail about what is said in Iuz the Evil regarding Grabford and the destruction of the Furyondian Fleet on Whyestil?
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I haven't given up on my timeline yet. I'm sure you would all agree that the last six months is where it really gets messy. I'd be happy to post it when I finally do finish if anyone is keen to take a look.
Damien. |
Please don't give up. You do good work, and you were the only one to catch the timing mistake in my Mayaheine article, so you are way more detail oriented than many of us. I'm looking forward to seeing you end work. As far as what it says in GH Wars, I'd just blow off the bit about the council convening in Harvester, since more sources seem to agree that the signing was then, not when the Great Council convened. For me, number of sources trumps who said it first.
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Journeyman Greytalker
Joined: Jan 05, 2007
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From: Vancouver
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Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:18 pm
Re: The Day of the Great Signing
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Damien wrote: |
My gut feeling is that a later author may have skimmed the document from the boxed set and not interpreted it sensibly. I think it may be Iuz the Evil that mucked up the timing of the fall of Grabford and near destruction of the Furyondian fleet on the Whyestil by a significant margin too. |
I'm not sure how much truth there is to this, but I remember hearing somewhere that that there was a lot of upheaval at TSR around this time. Apparently Dave Cook was supposed to write FTA but left on bad terms with TSR shortly after the release of the GH Wars box set. So TSR brought in Sargent, dumped Cook's notes in his lap and told him to do something with it. If this is true, it doesn't surprise me at all that some of the dates are messed. Between office politics and material exchanging hands, I'm amazed they still manged to salvage it and produce a quality box set.
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GreySage
Joined: Aug 03, 2001
Posts: 3310
From: Michigan
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Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:43 am
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Well, From the Ashes came out in 1992. I don't think David Cook left TSR until after 1994, when the Planescape Campaign Setting that he designed debuted. He was definitely gone after that, though. It could be he wrote Planescape a few years in advance and they only got around to publishing it two years later, but that wasn't my impression. Shrug.
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Journeyman Greytalker
Joined: Jan 05, 2007
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From: Vancouver
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Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:35 pm
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rasgon wrote: |
Well, From the Ashes came out in 1992. I don't think David Cook left TSR until after 1994, when the Planescape Campaign Setting that he designed debuted. He was definitely gone after that, though. It could be he wrote Planescape a few years in advance and they only got around to publishing it two years later, but that wasn't my impression. Shrug. |
That's right, I had forgotten Cook wrote the Planescape stuff. That would invalidate the story I heard then, unless you're right about him writing it in advance (not likely). Still, since he wrote GH Wars I have to wonder why he didn't write FTA as well.
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GreySage
Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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From: Michigan
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Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:07 am
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Well, Carl Sargent co-wrote the City of Greyhawk boxed set, one of the two modules that led up to Greyhawk Wars, and he was creative and enthusiastic about the setting. Maybe Cook just had other things he'd rather have been doing at the time, or they decided Sargent was the better choice.
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Apprentice Greytalker
Joined: Apr 08, 2008
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From: Australia
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Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:46 pm
Sargent.
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I particularly like the way that Sargent revisited many of the npc's from the City of Greyhawk boxed in From the Ashes. I think Sargent had a particular flair for investing personality in his characters and I really loved his style. Artur Jakartai and Lady Valdaresse Sharn played a huge part in my pre-Wars campaign and my players actually charged their glasses and made a toast when they heard that Lady Valdaresse copped it at Crockport.
He was a bit messy with his chronology though....
Thanks for the words of support, Smillan_31. I'll definitely attack the timeline with renewed vim!
Damien.
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Journeyman Greytalker
Joined: Apr 21, 2003
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Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:48 pm
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As another real world example, it took all of the negotiating and diplomatic parties over ten years of almost continual negotiation to finally get the Peace of Westphalia ratified and thus effectively ending the 30 years war. Perhaps the negotiating teams were already there doing their job for 6 months before the signing date. Just another idea.
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