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    Canonfire :: View topic - Greyhawk's Underdark
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    Greyhawk's Underdark
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    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
    Posts: 170
    From: Second Primordial Ooze on the Left

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    Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:22 pm  
    Greyhawk's Underdark

    For those of you who don't read mortellan's wonderful WoG comic... first of all, SHAME ON YOU!!! Get over there right now! You call yourselves Greyhawk fans?? ;)

    But more to the point, if you haven't read his latest installment, you haven't seen the crossover we did with the latest update to my own website, Maldin's Greyhawk.

    I've expanded the Greyhawk's Underdark section of my website, most notably with a regional survey of the underdark of the southwestern Flanaess. The cornerstone of this project is not the map you see on that page (which is really just a glorified thumbnail), but the PDF linked on that page. It combines the D-Series of modules (later reprinted as the GDQ1-7 Queen of the Spiders supermodule), the Night Below boxed set, and the expansive setting described in the Dungeoneer's Survival Guide into a layered PDF file, which (if you are using a reasonably up-to-date version of Acrobat Reader) enables you to turn off and on layers, allowing you to see areas of the map that may be hidden underneath higher cavern levels. If you have ever thought about starting an epic underdark campaign, this may be the setting that gets you started.

    And don't forget to check out mortellan's comic!

    Denis, aka "Maldin"
    Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
    Loads of edition-independent Greyhawk Goodness... maps, mysteries, magic, mechanics, and more!
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 20, 2008
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    Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:24 pm  

    I'll take this opportunity to plug my own self. Secret Skeleton Miniatures, as I am sure you all already know, is going to produce drow next! The Underdark rules, and all your pc's are going to die there! Hurray!
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
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    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

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    Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:03 pm  

    Wow! The map places it right in my neck of the woods! Awe, shucks Maldin, you shouldn't have. Just for me? Evil Grin Laughing

    Excellent job, now I'll have to find time to read the entire section. Cool
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    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    From: Michigan

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    Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:45 pm  

    I am delighted that Maldin's finally finished his Underdark map. It's really beautiful. Making the Night Below sea different from the Vault of the Drow sea was a good idea, in retrospect (I had combined them). I like that he managed to fit the Dungeoneer's Survival Guide areas in as well.

    The "U" areas are where the Kingdom of the Ghouls goes, as described in Dungeon #70.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 12, 2003
    Posts: 273
    From: Boston

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    Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:06 pm  

    That's awesome! Is there any way of including the text descriptions into a file that can be downloaded with the PDF?

    Also, this got me thinking. How the hell does Eclavdra end up in Dorakaa again? Is it just because she is Lolth's most powerful priestess?

    Also, if you ever work on an UnderOerth project for the Northern Reaches, please let me know. We detailed some areas in the UnderOerth near the Rift Canyon during the LG campaign.

    Again, nice work!

    Casey
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:03 pm  

    aurdraco wrote:
    Also, this got me thinking. How the hell does Eclavdra end up in Dorakaa again? Is it just because she is Lolth's most powerful priestess?


    It was because at the time she also worked (and had birthed a son) for Graz'zt (she was in the process of a long-term project to seduce and betray Graz'zt), and both Graz'zt and Lolth wanted someone to keep an eye on Iuz. Of Lolth's priestesses, only Eclavdra knew so much of Graz'zt, and thus she was uniquely qualified to spy on Graz'zt's son. Making her ambassador in Dorakaa was thus probably Lolth's idea, but she was an ambassador to Azzagrat as well. and represented Graz'zt's interests simultaneously. Graz'zt knew she was untrustworthy, but didn't much care - he didn't need a trustworthy ambassador, only someone who relayed his messages. After all, what could Eclavdra do to harm him? Actually, I don't know what she did to harm him; apparently something, so that after the Priestess Wars in Erelhei-Cinlu she was working for Lolth alone.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:14 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    aurdraco wrote:
    Also, this got me thinking. How the hell does Eclavdra end up in Dorakaa again? Is it just because she is Lolth's most powerful priestess?


    It was because at the time she also worked (and had birthed a son) for Graz'zt (she was in the process of a long-term project to seduce and betray Graz'zt), and both Graz'zt and Lolth wanted someone to keep an eye on Iuz. Of Lolth's priestesses, only Eclavdra knew so much of Graz'zt, and thus she was uniquely qualified to spy on Graz'zt's son. Making her ambassador in Dorakaa was thus probably Lolth's idea, but she was an ambassador to Azzagrat as well. and represented Graz'zt's interests simultaneously. Graz'zt knew she was untrustworthy, but didn't much care - he didn't need a trustworthy ambassador, only someone who relayed his messages. After all, what could Eclavdra do to harm him? Actually, I don't know what she did to harm him; apparently something, so that after the Priestess Wars in Erelhei-Cinlu she was working for Lolth alone.


    Man, Grazz't seems to have no luck with the ladies. By now he's the Demon Prince of Alimony Payments.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
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    From: Second Primordial Ooze on the Left

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    Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:38 pm  

    Apologies for the crossposting, to those who are also reading rip's and my conversation on the Piazza. ;) But perhaps there are people here who have opinions on these topics.
    rasgon wrote:
    I am delighted that Maldin's finally finished his Underdark map. It's really beautiful. Making the Night Below sea different from the Vault of the Drow sea was a good idea, in retrospect (I had combined them). I like that he managed to fit the Dungeoneer's Survival Guide areas in as well.

    The "U" areas are where the Kingdom of the Ghouls goes, as described in Dungeon #70.

    Thanks, rip! Ya, the only way I could reconcile the distance between the D series setting and where I wanted to put Night Below, was to have two separate seas. "Sunless Sea" sounds like a name that would be pretty popular anyways. Also, I didn't want Shaboath to be so close to the drow lands. The background on my map is even more basic, though. I created my original (the hand-drawn version) underdark map combining the D series map with the Dungeoneer's Survival guide back before the Night Below boxed set came out. I have seen your own underdark map though. If Night Below would have originally been designed in such a way as to fit with the D-series, I would have happily altered my map to fit, but I didn't think it worked as it was. As it is, the drow are quite noticably absent from the scene in Night Below, and the conclusion in my mind is that the two regions are quite far apart, considering the sphere of effect that a large population of drow would normally have in the underdark.

    Regarding the Kingdom of the Ghouls... I had actually forgotten about it (and didn't have a copy to check the details) when I was working on the PDF. The impression I get, was that it seems to fit better beneath the Jotens - someone in chat mentioned that it refers to a city of demihumans (dwarves or gnomes?) in the Jotens that was displaced by the ghouls. That would place the Kingdom in the next "underdark province". If people wanted it part of the area that I have mapped (and ignore that statement), then sure... Area U1 or U2 would work just fine. I'll put a note to that effect on the next page update as I continue to finish the descriptions. I have seen the map (but not the text) of Wolfgang's Empire of the Ghouls open design thing. Must say that I absolutely hate the "map". Not sure if there is any way to reconcile that with... well... anything. I'm not sure if he was suggesting in the southwest corner of the Empire map that it was the Sunless Sea (and ruined Fane) of the D-series, but it's still way to far from Loftwick to have that city as the character's jumping off point in the Kingdom mod. It seems to have been pretty much created in a vacuum, without a desire to fit it into Greyhawk. If anybody has carefully read through all of the Kingdom/Empire material, I'd love to hear opinions.

    Denis, aka "Maldin"
    Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
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    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

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    Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:44 pm  

    Maldin wrote:
    Regarding the Kingdom of the Ghouls... I had actually forgotten about it (and didn't have a copy to check the details) when I was working on the PDF. The impression I get, was that it seems to fit better beneath the Jotens - someone in chat mentioned that it refers to a city of demihumans (dwarves or gnomes?)


    Doesn't the Great Library wiki state that The White Kingdom -- or The Kingdom of the Ghouls -- with its ruler, Doresain, lies beneath the Hellfurnaces? Confused
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
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    From: Mt. Smolderac

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    Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:29 pm  

    Although it does say in Kingdom of the Ghouls that many of the Ghouls' enemies have been driven to take refuge in the settlements of the Dwarven enclaves in the Joten, it also says most of the Deep Gnomes in Loftwick came from "...Glimmerfell, a gnomish ironworking hall up in the Crystalmists west of town." The actual entrance to the Underdark is in a despoiled tomb at a placed called alternately, the Valley of Kings and the Valley of Tombs. No more details on where that is exactly. As far as where in the Underdark it is, from the map it is north of part of the Sunless Sea. It doesn't cover a very large area, maybe 12 miles e-w, by 9 miles n-s. I haven't seen the Empire map so I can't say if how much or if they vary. In Kingdom at least there is no implication that the wharf cavern of the Great Fane appears on the map. It would be far to the southwest. That impression may have been gathered by some due to the presence of one of the Drow galleys from the wharf cavern (location 18 in D3) at a location on the Sunless Sea in Kingdom. It's revealed that the galley fell into Ghoul hands, presumably after being taken by the Eilservs when they fled the Vault, although they could have acquired it some other way. I think U1 could work if we presume that the Valley of Kings/Tombs is to the south of Loftwick, which it might well be. It does say "most" of the gnomes came from Glimmerfell, but it is kind of a stretch that the ghouls could also be sending armies some 280 miles north-northwest of there to drive deep gnomes out of the Crystalmists near Glimmerfell. Given this I can only presume that Wolfgang wasn't envisioning the Vault as far south as its location as given in FTA.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    From: Second Primordial Ooze on the Left

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    Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:31 pm  

    Hmmm... seems I forgot to post here about my update to this webpage. :(

    There have been people on some of the boards who asked about depth information, and a way to understand the relationship between the different levels a bit better, so I created a cross-sectional view of the area with elevation/depth and added it to the webpage. Check it out! Keep in mind that the profile has a huge vertical exaggeration, and represents approximately 300 miles of horizontal distance.

    If you've downloaded the pdf, turning all of the layers off, then turning each of the individual levels on and off in turn (and looking at two at a time) should give a good idea of how they relate to each other. I can tell from my site logs that alot of people viewing the page don't download the layered pdf - which is the key point of the page.

    Denis, aka "Maldin"
    Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:16 am  

    The Kingdom of the Ghouls adventure mentions that refugees have caused increased humanoid attacks in the Jotens, but it's equally clear that that's not where the White Kingdom is; it's on the northern shore of the Sunless Sea, which would place it approximately in the "U" areas of Maldin's map. The statement that Glimmerfell is "in the Crystalmists west of town" is odd (it would mean the Sunless Sea is oddly shaped), but I assume it means the Hellfurnaces, which are the southern Crystalmists, and southwest instead of due west.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:56 pm  

    For those people interested, I've updated the Greyhawk's Underdark section of my website with a redrawn index map from the classic D-series, and have begun using it as the index map for new fan-created encounters from the Dragonsfoot Collaborative Project "Mapping the Depths of the Earth" which is developing the remaining locations from the original map. There is a high-resolution version of the index map available, and the new encounter areas are available as PDFs. Only a dozen are ready now, however check back in the future as people complete their encounters and I post them to the website.

    Denis, aka "Maldin"
    Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
    Loads of edition-independent Greyhawk goodness... maps, mysteries, magic, mechanics, and more!
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:55 am  
    Re: Greyhawk's Underdark

    Maldin wrote:
    I've expanded the Greyhawk's Underdark section of my website, most notably with a regional survey of the underdark of the southwestern Flanaess. The cornerstone of this project is not the map you see on that page (which is really just a glorified thumbnail), but the PDF linked on that page. It combines the D-Series of modules (later reprinted as the GDQ1-7 Queen of the Spiders supermodule), the Night Below boxed set, and the expansive setting described in the Dungeoneer's Survival Guide into a layered PDF file, which (if you are using a reasonably up-to-date version of Acrobat Reader) enables you to turn off and on layers, allowing you to see areas of the map that may be hidden underneath higher cavern levels. If you have ever thought about starting an epic underdark campaign, this may be the setting that gets you started.


    WOW! This is simply brilliant work! Amazing, "Anna-like" job with the PDF! Great, great accomplishment!

    I'm actually gaming (DMing) more now than I have for years and just completed a campaign about the reclaimation of Rauxes. The thought was a new campaign in the Ulek States but this map . . . WOW! It makes one think VERY seriously about the Yeomanry.

    Don't suppose you have anything similar for beneath the Lortmils? Wink

    Great job. "Best Canonfire Post of 2010" by a mile!

    Happy Happy Happy
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    GVD
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    Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:23 am  

    Excellent work! Now we need to decide which Sunless Sea is brackish enough so that I might teleport my party into the depths of it. ;)
    GreySage

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    Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:27 pm  

    Hmmm. GVDammerung wants to come to the Yeomanry? Confused

    Can't decide if that's good or . . . bad. Evil Grin

    Always loved your work, Big D! But then, you already knew that. So I'm just mentioning it for the others "here." Happy

    And, GVD? Its OK. You can come to the Yeomanry if you'd like. Laughing Laughing Laughing

    *The Scholar knew that Aeolius would goes nuts over another exotic body of water!* Cool
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    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:52 pm  

    Welcome to the Yeomanry! Home of...

    ...sheep...

    ...and not much else...

    ...unless you include the pasty-white dudes who live in that hole in the ground...

    ...and shepherds...

    ...and did I mention sheep...?

    Cool Cool Cool Cool Cool

    (Somebody's got to yank the scholar's chain now and then.)
    GreySage

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    Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:06 am  

    bubbagump wrote:
    (Somebody's got to yank the scholar's chain now and then.)


    I'll have you know that the only reason I haven't already killed that "thing" outside my tower is because "it" claims to be your child. Wink

    If it weren't for all those years we spent adventuring together . . . Evil Grin

    (And you did forget to mention Theodain! And you call yourself a scho . . . err, Assassin!) Laughing Razz
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    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:16 pm  

    ...and then some more sheep. Cool
    GreySage

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    Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:58 am  

    Halflings obviously don't like lamb-chops. Wink
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    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Oct 13, 2010 3:29 pm  

    I don't. But I do like chopping lambs! (It helps me relax after a hard day in the sew...err, shop.)
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:43 pm  
    Re: Greyhawk's Underdark

    GVDammerung wrote:
    WOW! It makes one think VERY seriously about the Yeomanry.

    Don't suppose you have anything similar for beneath the Lortmils? Wink

    Great job. "Best Canonfire Post of 2010" by a mile!

    Happy Happy Happy

    Thanks, GVD!
    There's also another reason for choosing the Yeomanry region as well... a nearby mining town with an infamous castle. ;)

    As for the Lortmils... sorry. Nothing in my bag of tricks for that area.

    Denis, aka "Maldin"
    Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
    GreySage

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    Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:30 pm  
    Re: Greyhawk's Underdark

    Maldin wrote:
    There's also another reason for choosing the Yeomanry region as well... a nearby mining town with an infamous castle. ;)


    There he goes! Plugging Melkot again! Surprised

    Denis! You ham! Evil Grin

    Just kidding, of course. Wink

    Love Melkot, and simply must find a way to include it in one of my up-coming stories. Laughing
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