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    About elves and distance
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    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 29, 2003
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    From: San Diego, California

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    Fri Oct 01, 2004 10:53 am  
    About elves and distance

    1. First what is the connection between the demihumans and the fey? Elves,gnomes etc are not of the Fey type but in LGG it's implied several times that elves are somehow related to the fey. Opinions? Anything "canon".

    2. On the map given to the smaller $10 greyhawk book it shows distances but not on the more comprehensive 30 dollar book. Just what is accurate? It seems that many of the distances on the $10 map are very small. The known world is only roughly the size of the US?

    3. The elven goddess of dreams(forget her name) doesnt make sense. If elves dont dream, then why do they have a goddess of dreams?
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Oct 01, 2004 2:52 pm  

    1) My take is that there are two uses of the word fey: one is a scholarly (and game-accurate) use, that identifies sprites and such things as fey; the other is a common-use meaning that covers a wider range of creatures, such as elves -- common folk not understanding the difference.

    2) Greyhawk City and Hardby are on the order of 150 miles apart (5 hexes on the original Darlene map). Anything that deviates wildly from that should be disregarded. Anything close I'd call creative license -- use whatever is convenient for you.

    3) Don't ask so many questions :P Seriously, I think a goddess of dreams was dreamed up (pun intended) before they decided to state that elves don't sleep -- a concept that probably originates with Tolkien. Perhaps considering her a goddess of visions might work better if the inconsistency is a problem (IMHO).
    CF Admin

    Joined: Jul 28, 2001
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    Fri Oct 01, 2004 4:42 pm  

    Good question about Sehanine Moonbow, who wasn't mentioned in Unearthed Arcana, which was the book that incorporated Roger Moore's early Dragon magazine articles on demi-humans and their pantheons. I don't recall where Sehanine was first mentioned. Hopefully someone else will supply a valid answer.

    Regarding olven reverie, to my knowledge this detail derives from Roger's aforementioned articles. It is not a feature of Tolkien's elves.

    I'm not particularly impressed by Sehanine although the LGG authors apparently accept her -- casting her as patroness of the Fey Mysteries and following Carl Sargent regarding the People of the Testing. Sehanine seems redundant to me given Corellon's "original" androgyny. Making Sehanine the moon who wept for Corellon is a fine myth, but it obviates the earlier notion of Corellon (and therefore olves).

    If one were to keep Sehanine, then I agree with jwb3. She is the patroness of illusions and the waking dream of the reverie.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 17, 2004
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    Fri Oct 01, 2004 7:09 pm  

    Fine comments

    1) Term Fey applies to brownies, spites etc but also is used for the elves to show the close and unique relationship they have with the wild woods and the "fey" beings within who look upon elves as natural allies and protectors.

    I think that many parents and players (children) were uncomfortable and confused by Corellon's "original" androgyny so Sehanine Moonbow role was increased as a female persona, I tend to place her in the role that the LGG authors did casting her as patroness of the Fey Mysteries because I like the People of the Testing as finally the elves have a focused goal.

    I view Sehanine Moonbow as the patroness of the Fey Mysteries sending the elves the dream to come home and as a central force urging the reunification of the elven people.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 15, 2001
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    From: Norman, OK

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    Fri Oct 01, 2004 7:28 pm  
    Feyness

    Good insights all. I think the Historical concept of Fey is best explained in C.S. Lewis' "The Discarded Image" . His chapter on Longaevi places the Fey in a proper historical/mythical/literary context. As for the game, the problem is that Gary placed his game elves somewhere between the far more Medieval Fey-like elves of Tolkien, and the more Victorian Fey-like pixies, sprites and flower faeries. The problem then is that they kind've exist in a half-way state, of the Fey, but not. I think it would be easy enough to apply a "Fey" template to elves without changing the game too much...and that might even be a good thing.

    Gary's ambivalence about elves has been a bit of a problem for the game from square one, and probably has led to the dislike of the elves by many (you don't see the same animosity towards dwarves, for instance). It also has led to the very odd "androgenous" approach to the elves found in 3E (and in some cases in 2E). This is a very ahistorical approach to elves. Elves, are gendered, they are just beautiful. It's odd that our modern gaming culture has to equate beauty with androgeny. These are just my thoughts...

    Steve
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 01, 2004
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    Sat Oct 02, 2004 8:20 am  
    Distance

    Hello Everyone,

    This post/reply deals more with distance. I too have always been mildly concerned with distance in tWoG. Certainly a world with so many varied creatures would be running into each other almost everyday. Where would all the hidden glades, secret groves, private abodes and strongholds be in such a confined area? Wars would be incredibly short as troops would have only so far to travel, before they met up with each other.

    I have taken the liberty in my campaign to make each "hex" 120 miles wide. This sounds very wide indeed, and relatively speaking, it is wide. The size makes for very interesting travels across land and provides me, the DM, with the option of throwing all kinds of stuff at the party. For instance, on paper, the Yeomanry claims hold over a certain amount of territory....on paper. I can make an unknown castle, village or town appear whenever I want to make things interesting for the party. If we used the rulebook, a group of adventurers would travel far and wide in under a week. Making things larger makes it more difficult for the average person and helps prove the usefulness of magic (flying spells, magic carpet, flying creatures, etc.). Of course, this may all fall apart. It gives my party the option of adventuring locally or seeing the wide world.

    I can see my group coming back to their town with silks and pearls and all manner of exotic items, relating the tales of turbaned men, Gnomish strongholds, trolls, and maybe a white dragon to the community. The elder members look towards the local bully/hero and he scoffs, "You are full of tall tales and rubbish. I've travelled north, for a month, and everyone knows that the world is made up of rolling plains and grasslands. There's no such thing as deserts or jungles or even oceans, just large lakes. Bah, you speak of not what is true. There are only humans, dwarves, elves and orcs. And a land that is eternally ice and snow, Ha!, you make me laugh. How would the cows eat without grass? Oh, so there are no cows there? Bah, everyone has cows."

    I Miss the Wild Coast,
    Dwarf from Nyrond
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 20, 2004
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    Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:36 am  

    I agree totally with Tamerlain's comments about the concept of elves in the Flanaess. I remember reading somewhere...and I htink it was the LGG that some grey elves have silvery hair and violet eyes and that is attributed to fey blood. This leads me to think that somewhere in elven ancestry is fey blood or maybe just somewhere in grey elven ancestry. SOmetimes these bloodlines are more pure and thus the silver haired grey elves. I always get the feeling that Queen Yolande is one of these elves but thats just a personal thought.

    As for Sehanine, I know elves don't sleep but they do meditate instead so is it canon that they don't dream when they meditate or at least have some version of dreaming?
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: May 14, 2002
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    Mon Oct 04, 2004 10:52 am  

    Quote:
    2. On the map given to the smaller $10 greyhawk book it shows distances but not on the more comprehensive 30 dollar book. Just what is accurate? It seems that many of the distances on the $10 map are very small. The known world is only roughly the size of the US?


    Look just below where it says Hepmonaland... you will see that the scale of the map from the LGG is 1 hex equals 65 miles.

    yes the distances are not all that huge, but it must be remembered that the flanaes are just a small part of the contentant of oerik which is far vaster then any contenant on our planet. The flanaess is basicaly just a peninsula of that super contenant, a peninsuala larger then the USA.

    (the entire map of the flanaess in the LGG including the water areas covers 48*56 hexes or 11,356,800 square miles--eyeballing it I would say that about 40-45% of the map is water, giving us about 7 million miles of land area, by comparison the united states has a land area of about 3.5 million sqaure miles).
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: May 14, 2002
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    From: Renton WA

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    Mon Oct 04, 2004 10:56 am  

    Quote:
    1. First what is the connection between the demihumans and the fey? Elves,gnomes etc are not of the Fey type but in LGG it's implied several times that elves are somehow related to the fey. Opinions? Anything "canon".
    it comes mainly form a case of multiple meanings of the same word... a game meaning, and a popular meaning....

    in game terms a fey is any creature with the fey type (at least in 3E) in popular meaning it means anything nature oriented and magical.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 03, 2002
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    Wed Oct 06, 2004 7:48 am  

    cwslyclgh wrote:

    (the entire map of the flanaess in the LGG including the water areas covers 48*56 hexes or 11,356,800 square miles--eyeballing it I would say that about 40-45% of the map is water, giving us about 7 million miles of land area, by comparison the united states has a land area of about 3.5 million sqaure miles).


    The Darlene map gives an area about 25% less, but still encompasses a fairly large area.

    Roughly - 98 hexes high x 146 hexes wide, 1 hex is 30 miles wide with an area of 584.6 sq.miles / hex = about 8,369,500 sq.miles. Whatever you feel the population of the Flanaess should be based on various sources, this still creates a very sparse population density. I agree there is lots of room for everyone!
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:49 am  

    I didnt think about population. While it's only as big as the US, with such a low population of humaniods, it's still somewhat small-maybe. But on the other hand The Flanesse includes so many different types of cultures and land types not to be bigger. I'm still perplexed.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:06 pm  

    Quote:
    While it's only as big as the US,


    it is twice the size of the US

    Europe is smaller then the flanaess (4 million sqaure miles as opposed to the flanaess 7 million), and just look at the cultural diversity that existed ther in 1000 AD from Muslims in spain, to Vikings in Norway, to Byzentines in greece/turky, Goths (of several different types), the various germanic tribes, celts, slavs, etc.

    Quote:
    The Darlene map gives an area about 25% less, but still encompasses a fairly large area.
    The LGG map shows more areas to the North and West that the Darlene map cuts off. (quite a bit of it water).
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Oct 06, 2004 5:51 pm  

    Regarding the population of the Flanaess, I never had a problem with the low populations of EGG's WoG. WotC, however, felt there was an inconsistency and skyrocketed the populations in the LGG.

    The peoples of the Flanaess, unlike medieval Europe populations (to which most people compare them), are living in an environment in which the competition is ferocious and widespread -- orcs, dragons, trolls, ogres, and all sorts of nasties. There is no way (IMHO) that European-style population densities could survive. Populations will stick close to population centers (and the protection they provide) or live in deadly peril.

    Of course it's silly applying real-world rationales to a fantasy milieu, but that's what WotC did, so I'm fighting back with the same tactic -- only I'm doing it better :)

    Just venting on a decision that's always bugged me :)
    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:08 pm  

    jwb3 what about the other side of the coin granted the hazards are numerous faced in a GH fantasy setting but how about the benefits Wink

    For instance: Healing spells and potions, cure disease, purify food and water or simply using the dangerous humanoids and monsters you mentioned as mercenaries instead of human troops.

    In medieval Europe populations disease and unsanitary practises caused more deaths than warfare.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Oct 07, 2004 3:19 am  

    Good point, Crag. Overall public welfare seems to be higher, and that would most certainly have an effect. Even literacy is quite high in the Flanaess.

    The costs given for things cure disease and similar benefits are a little steep for commoners, but clerics no doubt care for their own flocks (likely a strong incentive for piety).
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Oct 08, 2004 6:04 am  

    cwslyclgh wrote:
    Quote:
    The Darlene map gives an area about 25% less, but still encompasses a fairly large area.
    The LGG map shows more areas to the North and West that the Darlene map cuts off. (quite a bit of it water).


    Oh definitely, no arguement here. I was just showing the comparison for the sake of those more familiar with the Darlene map (like me). Basically, the Flanaess is a lot bigger than most people give it credit for.
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