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    Gygaxian Metaphysics
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    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 30, 2001
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    From: Niflheim, 9to5

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    Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:17 pm  
    Gygaxian Metaphysics

    I was wondering if outer-planar natives are technically alive, in the sense that they would thrive in the presence of positive energy, or suffer from the touch of level-draining undead. It seems to me that positive and negative energy are inner plane and prime material stuff, and outer-planar creatures would be beyond that, being more like creatures of concept and abstraction.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
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    From: Mt. Smolderac

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    Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:52 pm  

    Dang, man. You just blew my mind.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 21, 2003
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    From: Germany

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    Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:41 am  

    Look to 3E for clarification.

    The outsider type is still harmed by negative energy (for example if you cast Enervation (which is described as a ray of negative energy) on them) and healed by positive energy (for exmaple the heal spellwhich enables you to channel positive energy into a creature to wipe away injury and afflictions), but there are some special rules for resurrection type magic for them:

    Quote:
    An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence.

    [...]

    Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual natureóits soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, donít work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.

    [...]

    Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.



    There's a difference between native outsiders and "true" outsiders. Native outsiders are for example the githyanki who are more mortal than for example devils. Githyanki can be raised, while a fiend can't.

    The undead react different to positive and negative energy.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    From: Michigan

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    Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:01 am  

    Githyanki are actually humanoids in 3.5, not outsiders (native or otherwise). Which means they're identical to humans as far as the composition of their bodies and souls go. They were considered outsiders in the 3.0 Manual of the Planes back when the term didn't really mean anything other than "from another plane," but they fixed this in the 3.5 Monster Manual, which clarified that outsiders are spiritual beings like genies, angels, and demons. Githyanki are just immigrants from the Material Plane, so they're still fundamentally the same as other material creatures.

    The native subtype is for outsiders with separate souls, which normally means they have both mortal and immortal blood (cambions, half-elementals, tieflings). For reasons of slack-jawed stupidity, it's also been applied to outsiders like rakshasas and tritons, who apparently have souls just from sometimes living on the material plane.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 20, 2008
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    Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:47 am  

    I do not think "Gygaxian" describes changes made for 3rd edition.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:23 pm  

    chaoticprime wrote:
    I do not think "Gygaxian" describes changes made for 3rd edition.


    I disagree! They're not 100% Gygax-penned, of course, but they're surely, to one degree or another, based on cosmological concepts that Gary Gygax originally came up with. I think of these mostly as clarifications, rather than changes.

    On the other hand, the description of demons and devils in the original Monster Manual did seem to imply more of a body-soul dichotomy for such creatures.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: May 14, 2002
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    From: Renton WA

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    Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:21 pm  

    In 1e most demons and devils are not effected by healing or inflicting spells btb (check out the cure light wounds wording in the 1e PHB), so I am not sure that Gygax would agree that citing 3.x in this case would be in line with his cosmological ideas.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:44 pm  

    cwslyclgh wrote:
    In 1e most demons and devils are not effected by healing or inflicting spells btb (check out the cure light wounds wording in the 1e PHB), so I am not sure that Gygax would agree that citing 3.x in this case would be in line with his cosmological ideas.


    Excellent! Thanks for that reference, cwslyclgh. I would never have remembered that. Very interesting. It also implies that (at least some) undead were not to be affected by healing spells, though, which blows my whole inner/outer planes dichotomy.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:54 pm  

    Now wait a sec in 1E all the Devil Lords could raise dead fully and all the Deva's can cast healing spells as innate powers.
    Now let me repharse that the deva's in mm2 can cast the healing spells and the devil lords in mm1 can raise dead but not the one's in mm2.
    So why would the devils have ability to raise the dead fully? And I dont believe that the following: Asmodeus, Baalzebul, Dispater, and Greyon would have a whole of running time around on the prime. And what of the deva's, would they have a whole lot of time of running around on the prime?
    Now in the outer planes compendium from 2nd edition gives the devas cure light wounds 7 times a day, the Planetar gets Heal and raise dead 3 times a day and restoration 1 per day. The Solar gets heal, restoration 1 day and resurrection 3 times a day. Both of the heals they get once per round. And all the big Devils disappear from 2nd edition basically. So for beings with no soul thats alot of positive energy being thorwn around.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:01 pm  

    king_joshua wrote:
    So for beings with no soul thats alot of positive energy being thorwn around.


    I guess I don't have a problem with them using positive/negative energy, so much as being affected by it. If a wizard can cast enervation and a cleric can cast a cure wounds spell on an outer plane, then anyone else should be able to. Maybe it is through some astral/ethereal conduit.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:17 pm  

    Hehe cannonfire went into debug mode with some of that, thought I had broken the forum.

    Just saying why would being with no souls have the ability to heal themselves or bring others back from the dead? Plus restoration is usually used to give back stolen levels or hit dice due to energy drain, so I would have to say those beings would be affected by energy drain.

    And as far as 3.0 or 3.5 goes anything with an intelliegence score of at least 10 can pick up a class so you could have a Balor fighter/priest.
    Balor stats from mm 3.0 are str. 25 dex 13 con 19 int 20 wis 20 cha 16 so it could easily pick up either class but doesnt give a favored class not like it matters. Of course your players are gonna look at you like your crazy when a balor casts heal on itself, unless of course they are into the epic stages of the game. Basically the way I would see it is everything is affected by positive or negative energy kinda of a yin and yang idealism.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:56 pm  

    king_joshua wrote:
    Just saying why would being with no souls have the ability to heal themselves or bring others back from the dead? Plus restoration is usually used to give back stolen levels or hit dice due to energy drain, so I would have to say those beings would be affected by energy drain.


    Oh, you're assuming that because they can cast heal or restoration that they can cast them on THEMSELVES. I don't think that is necessarily the case. I can see angelic beings being able to heal and restore lesser beings like mortals. A priest healing an angel, though, just seems wrong to me.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:07 pm  

    They CAN cast Restoration on themselves it doesnt fall under the rules of healing as per the rule of cure light wounds, it deals with the life energy of the being. Heal on the other hand falls under the cure light rule.

    Advanced cure light says:This healing will not affect beings that aren't corporeal, living, or those which can only be harmed by iron, silver, and/or magical weapons.
    So a priest for no matter the amount of trying cant heal an angel by any means short of a wish.
    So it seems they would be able to be level drained via negative energy.

    In 2nd edition cure light simplify's to corporeal, not living, and extraplanar origin.

    Now under 3.0 or 3.5 rules cure light states living creature so it would have to be established if said creature is alive or not.
    Which gives me pause since I'm running a 3.0 campaign on the definition of living. Cure light states it uses positive energy to cure living and hurt negative energy creatures but says nothing of extraplanar origin.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: May 14, 2002
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    Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:39 pm  

    if you are playing under 3.0 rules the definition of 'living' means it has a constitution score... in 3.0 (and 3.5) cure wounds spells work on all creatures not of the construct and undead types (and they have special effects against creatures of the undead type, generally opposite their normal effects so a cure light wounds deals damage to an undead creature and a inflict light wounds heals the undead creature), btb.
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