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    Bring Greyhawk into a New Era ...
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:48 am  
    Bring Greyhawk into a New Era ...

    Nothing has been done with Greyhawk in the past 10 years and I feel that it is time that something is done about it.

    Yes Big Words, even Bigger Project.

    Greyhawk is what it is today and loved by all, but the Greyhawk Community needs to move forward and allow change to take place in our beloved Greyhawk.

    If we dont I am sure our numbers will slowly decrease over time, while members move onto new campaign settings.

    We cant ignore the stuff that has happened but rather to build from it. This is an opportunity to start with a clean slate, new heroes, new villians.

    I am looking for some community members to help me with this task to bring Greyhawk into a new time line. Maybe start of in the 600th year CY, I dont know.

    But what we need is a World War, the absence of the Gods, an Invasion from the astra plane by the Gith, like the Incursion from Dragon 307, a natural disaster that alters oerth.

    Who would be keen to step forward and help bring our Greyhawk into a new era?

    The bottom line is none of us are getting any younger and I would like to see something come of my time that I have spent over the years hording Greyhawk lore.

    I dont want any monetary gain out of this, purely the idea of the end result is enough reward and to be part of it. We are all doing our own littel side projects but nothing really as a community to bring life back to Greyhawk. (That I am aware of.)

    Yes there will be arguments about what is the right direction to take, but I think we can work through that problem.
    The best option is to have a few members decide on the couple of ideas to go forward and then to have a poll and the idea with the most votes is the one that we persue and so forth.


    Lets be as objective with this thread. Smile
    Adept Greytalker

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    Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:29 am  

    We can retcon and add dragonkin and warforged!

    I think Elminster is a definite plus, as well.

    I know you are all thinking this too, but I am going to say it anyway.

    Pokemon.

    Yes, there it is. Poke-freaking-mon. Oooh! And Russel Crowe!
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:10 am  

    In my home game, we've transferred into Greyhawk 4E at CY 610. We've picked up where Living Greyhawk left off. The Flight of Fiends was a ruse by Iuz, planning to allow him divine ascension. This worked very well, and Iuz ascended, but a by-product was that many demons and devils returned to the lands. There was great turmoil in many kingdoms at the end of Living Greyhawk, and by incorporating those changes, we've taken Greyhawk back to a 1st edition feel where it is no longer safe to travel the roads and byways, and you better be in your house or a town at night (to the 4E points of light idea). With the ascension of Iuz, it created a backlash of magic which changed the way magic worked, bringing in the 4E system. There is small centers of power controlled by humans and demihumans, almost city-state like in their existence. The wilderness is a dangerous place.
    For instance, in Keoland, the Wyrd-King controls and area around Niole Dra and the Silent Tower for maybe about a day or two ride. Duke Luscan Rhola controls the Gradsul-Saltmarsh area, and with his navy a faor amount of the sea and coast nearby. Cryllor and the Good Hills are kind of allied in a merchant alliance, though the Good Hills themselves are filled with humanoids and evil creatures (giants and humanoids left over from the LG wars in Geoff, and undead and such from the LG Keoland Returned story-arc. Flen is destroyed (again, the Returned story-arc), and a large swath of land from the Good Hills eastward to Niole Dra is utterly barren (Returned story arc).
    The Dreadwood has increased in size, filling up most of Keoland and even spreading to east, but is no longer the malevolent Dreadwood, as the aberration-touched areas have been cleansed. Demons, devils, and other bad guys have filled up the areas between civilization, trying to forge out areas of power and wealth through force of strength.
    This is pretty much what happened all over the Flanaess. We kept races/classes pretty Greyhawk traditional, and only allowed non-traditional races/classed (for instance, dragonborn or psion) with a comprehensive character background that explains why they are in Greyhawk.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:19 am  

    Thanks very much for your post, it was a good read. I just had to close my eyes when I read 4e and point of light Razz
    GreySage

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    Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:03 am  

    I'm not so sure I'm up for the idea of making such a drastic change to the WoG as you suggest, DarkHerald. However, I do like the idea of small change. Smile

    I prefer to use the Greyhawk Wars as the final chapter in a campaign rather than as a beginning. I was terribly disappointed that the Greyhawk Wars pretty much got rid of the Horned Society, the Bandit Kingdoms, the Rovers of the Barrens, Idee, and the Sea Princes. I know that such changes may be realistic, but my fantasy world doesn't have to be perfectly realistic. Wink

    What I'm trying to say is that I would be all for altering the political affiliations of the various nations and sparking turmoil or establishing peace in new places, but I don't want a meteorite to land in the Wooly Bay and obliterate Greyhawk and half of the Flaness or any other catastrophic event of that magnitude.

    Am I just demonstrating a stubbornness born of age? Confused

    SirXaris
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    Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:23 am  

    SirXaris wrote:
    Am I just demonstrating a stubbornness born of age? Confused SirXaris


    YES .... Wink

    Forgotten Realms lost favourite NPCs, had catastrpohic things happen to it more times than I can remember.

    Greyhawk we have created such a comfort zone that we dont like it being disturbed in the slightest way and this largely has lead to the detriment of the world we love so much.

    We need to take that leap and try new things.

    What's the worst that could happen? You feel it doesnt work for you and you dont use it

    just my 2c
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:14 am  

    I disagree that Oerth needs a major cataclysm to spark interest in it. IMO, that failed to work with Forgotten Realms.

    I am currently working on a CY600 gazetteer for the Bandit Kingdoms based on Living Greyhawk results. If I were doing most other nations, I would have been done a long time ago, having to detail so many fiefs is really slowing me down. Also, trying to honor LG's best results is also slowing me down. Had I just started out to bring the BK up to speed without using LG results, I would have not gone into so much detail and I probably would have just been able to make more stuff up since canon doesn't discuss the BK much after Fate of Istus (and that is only set in Rookroost), Iuz the Evil, or Mona's Age of Worms campaign (which I don't really consider to be canon even though it appeared in one of the "official" magazines).

    Anyhow, my point is, yes, it would be great if people got off their **** and worked together to create a new Oerth gazetteer. However, leave the major catastrophes at home.

    Casey
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    Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:28 am  

    There is the Oerth Journal project to expanded the borders.
    Long time ago Montand (Eric O'Brien) wrote a Wars of Greyhawk or something to that effect. I expanded upon it with the Hegemony Wars article. Of course it's dominated with the Pale expanding into Nyrond, the former Great Kingdom and Tenh. It's a decent read if about 10 years old.
    Wiping out nations and redrawing borders is always fun. Look at the real world.
    Greyhawk barely survived in the 90's on the AOL Boards. Luckily, it was Erik Mona and Gary Holian that helped make it a comeback and the core assumption in 3.0.
    Greyhawk is enduring yet another long period of waiting. With no edition to support it and a fragmentation of the hobby between 4e and Pathfinder Greyhawk will only survive with the fans.
    However, the hobby is getting older. There are not enough kids playing and if and when they do, they're playing Magic or a Points of Light game. Without a younger base to bring in potential revenue, Greyhawk will continue to age - hopefully it uses Oil of Olay - gracefully. But in the end, I wonder how long Greyhawk can be sustainable.
    I only say this as a fan. Time considerations, financial obligations, and a general 'growing up-ness' means that responsibilities have changed for many of us. The Oerth Journal is an excellent example. When Rick had the time and effort to put into it - it easily competed with professional publications. But without solid writers and artists - it is hard to maintain. Those artists and writers have moved on to Golarion (Liz was the Art Director and now works for Paizo).
    To make Greyhawk a viable world, it needs constant care and feeding. For that - it needs good authors and articles that people will reference and recognize as being 'canonical' and this is where the OJ excelled. You could tell that an article on the 'thoughts of the slavers'* was researched and referenced better than almost any of SKR's works.


    As a Venture-Captain for Pathfinder Society, of course, my time and investments mostly go to Golarion now. But it is the WoG 1.0 map that hangs on my wall and not WoG 2.0. It is Greyhawk that I compare to and often utilize as to a comparison for something in Golarion.

    *thoughts on the slavers is not an article in the OJ - I made it up as an example

    Religious slavers have no thoughts - they act on the faith provided by their Glorious Theocrat.
    All Hail Pholtus....All Hail....
    Theocrat Issak
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    Theocrat Issak
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    Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:24 pm  

    That is a patriotic call indeed Dark Herald. I for one missed out on the last comeback for Greyhawk publication back in 2000 (The start of Living Greyhawk) and I've been playing catch-up in the community ever since. Like Theocrat mentions, canonfire and Oerth Journal have been our leading outlets for fan based Greyhawk development during the last decade and onward. I've contributed to both and then some.
    Lately however, there has been a dearth of Greyhawk material coming in to both CF and OJ. I know many large projects are always looming in the background in this community yet I think "time versus payoff" often slows the work done on them. I am not going to shoot down DH's idea, because sooner or later Greyhawk interest will catch on again, and it will be nice to ride that wave when it hits.

    These are the things that I think could help spur a Greyhawk revival online:

    1. The obvious is a 4th editon Greyhawk: Wizards would likely do this totally in house, but whatever the outcome it would only comprise a few books at best leaving a HUGE chunk of the conversion workload to be done in the fan community. At least its busy work for those who play that edition.
    2. Adventures/ Adventure Paths: Some people don't want endless reams of lore, they only need modules. Greyhawk started with a backbone of short convention sized modules and ended with a series of long interconnected adventure paths. Many people online are writing old school modules these days, so it is not a lost art.

    3. Fiction: Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance were powerhouses because of its tie-in fiction. Greyhawk never really took off in that department, and I feel this is a perfect avenue for those who don't want to write scholarly pieces or crunch-heavy adventures. Fan-fic does have a negative connotation online, but if coordinated properly with a major Greyhawk movement like DH envisions, who knows what interest it could generate.

    4. Maps: For many people, the Darlene maps are what drew them into the setting so long ago. There are still people making quality maps of GH out there and they are among the most popular resources DMs look for. Good maps can spur the imagination and lead to new ideas and so on. One project that has boundless application would be town/city maps, especially if we're talking timeline changes. Speaking of timeline changes, maps of Oerik-past is a dream project of mine. Just the Suel Empire restored would be a daunting task to draw and develop for a team of fans. Another idea is map development of Oerth, which is in fact currently being done by several people associated with the Oerth Journal. Don't be scared off though by that though, Oerth is a big place and there is alot of mapping to be done.

    5. Art: People are probably more visually attuned than ever when it comes to fantasy games. We're in an era of video games and trading cards. This is another avenue for contribution be it old school B&W art or full color digitally rendered pieces. Again, art needs to be a coordinated effort with writers, but sometimes inspiration works in reverse; a random piece of art could lead to the idea for the written work. Whatever the case, iconic art that people associate with Greyhawk was a strength of the Gygax era and should be kept in mind in this discussion.

    That's all I can think of right now. Anyone else?
    Adept Greytalker

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    Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:51 pm  

    I think an easy feat for most wanting contributors may be easier to accomplish than one would think. By recording and distributing the events of their GH campaigns, they can, in effect, contribute to the fan-based canon. Building a fan-canon would be great. FASA (though legally) furthered the canon of Star Trek for years and years, but in the end were no more than fans.

    I say we put together a new time-line of events taken from the best of our own campaigns.

    Here is my example:

    Date: 591 CY (or later): Keoish rule of Sterich is challenged by former adventurer Staleek Yurling. Staleek claimed the right to rule based on his own noble Flan heritage, and by the significance of his ancient kingly sword, Merthuvial (Barrow of the Forgotten King). Rumors of Staleeks might entailed fighting an incarnation of the demon prince Sertrous (Fortress of the Yuan Ti) and even besting Grazz't in a sword-duel in the Abyss (Expedition to Demon Web Pits).

    Staleek was a mighty warlord, and led his army of Flan loyalists to occupy Istivin. Naturally, Keoland was unwilling to withdraw their influence from Sterich, which led to the Battle of Good Hills. The Keoish cavalry were poorly dispatched for the Sterich army and their native knowledge of the terrain, and the Keoish forces quit the field after one day.

    Both nations now prepare for a greater conflict. King Kimbertos Skotti and the newly crowned King Staleek Yurling have been labeled the Red and Black Lions by the people. The War of Lions now seems imminent.
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    Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:09 pm  

    I am all for an advancement of the timeline, I do however feel a 'big event' as suggested isn't necessary. As Chaoticprime suggested public display of on-going or soon-to-be-ongoing personal campaigns can be an easy way to draw attention. The only reason I even log onto Enworld anymore are the Story Hours. Mystic-Scholar's Infamous Key story, his previous ones in the flan kingdoms of the now Bright Desert are all excellent means of drawing attention and interest. Also following Chaoticprime's example here are two Greyhawk Campaigns that I am about to start or have started.


    Darkness over Ket: It's 600 CY and the ravens of deeds long forgot have come home to roost. Sym'ar Al-bint Hura has returned home and plans to make her mother proud. As daughter of Iggwilv she has plans to awaken one of the apocalyptic spawn of Tharizdun and set it to raze the kingdom of Ket from Oerth itself. She needs the Four-fold auspex to find the one key she needs to awaken Xoxorim the Fire-bleeder from its centuries old slumber... the Wailer of Tharizdun. Her agents move through the strata of Ketite society, will the Heroes rise in time to stop the destruction of Ket?

    Echoes in Time: The Kingdom of Nyrond struggles to bring the lands recently obtained more firmly under its rule. Almorian separatists become more vocal every day and the mysterious 'accidental' fires on the docks in Narsel Mendred only serve to polarize Nyrondian against Almorian. Only the children of Count Stormbrow are listening to the words of Old Mott about Jebli in the sewers, Grims on the streets and something stirring beneath the city. What lies in the Belswelter? What dwells beyond the Greenfire? Can the Children of the Stormbrowed figure out these things in time to save their kingdom?
    Site Theocrat

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    Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:11 pm  

    ChaoticPrime is in a unique situation in regards to Greyhawk and its revival. He produced miniatures that revolved around people of Greyhawk. I use the War Dog all the time. I plan on getting around to painting the witch.
    If he's had success with the mini's then that is helpful to the future of Greyhawk. If not, then that says a bit more towards the decline of Greyhawk. Mini's are useful no matter what campaign setting. But if it's called Vecna's Bitch, then it might not get sold as much as say Baba Yaga or even Winter Witch (to tie it into Pathfinder novel). But by doing that - you're taking away the Greyhawkiness.
    So if having him helping and using what he knows in regards to what is popular for Greyhawk it might be useful. Otherwise I bow to Mort since he's one of the most active Greyhawk posters with his WoG Comic.
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    Theocrat Issak
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    Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:33 pm  

    I'm in ! Just toss me a bone and i'll run with it Evil
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    Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:35 pm  

    Thank you for your compliments, Issak. I feel they were somewhat biased, however, on account of me filling your mailbox with pewter mastiffs, haha.

    I think that a fan-canon is the best way to invigorate our little Greyhawk community. Here are my reasons:

    -Greyhawk has been completely built by its fans (in official capacity). Our inclusions are no less valid than anyone else's.

    -We can only include events that have happened at our own game tables, not speculative events that could logically happen with current canon.

    -Because it will be event-based, it applies to no specific rules-set. There will be issues like, "If Time Stop in 3.5 doesn't let you harm people, then how did Vecna kill the Circle of Eight in AD&D?" My answer: Mordenkainen went out of his way to massively Nerf Time Stop across the wide of the Flanaess so it would not happen again.

    -Its not actually work. Most gamers hate to work on something when a good enough example is already present. This would be nothing more complicated than writing down a paragraph about an event at your own game table. Those with the gusto to actually construct the timeline can worry about what goes where.

    -We can finally get some new GH heroes and villains. Make our player characters epic by their own right. I have done extensive stuff in Salinmoor that I think you all would really dig on.

    -Lastly, "who better?" I mean, seriously, there are guys on here who know more about Greyhawk history than Earth history. That is fantastic. I have eidetic memory, I do not forget anything I commit to memory, and there are still blokes on here who shame me. Now, if it comes down to Doctor Who, I can throw down big time.

    Napoleon (Allegorical disinterest) wants to conquer Europe (Greyhawk). Are we the Duke of Wellington (us) or the Portugese (also us)?

    I say we feed the short bastard a Waterloo.
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    Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:21 pm  

    I was thinking something more along a interactive map or maps. I'd believe something along Anna's maps.(best looking maps ,so i used her's) Just something i think might bring the youth back to it. Something along the Google Earth or Oerth.
    Maybe a static map that every one starts with, 1 thru 4 DM per map with out knowing who;s on what map. Just characters linked to a DM.

    It be a huge endeavor
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:56 pm  

    I may be missing something here but I have seen no inkling that Greyhawk will ever be officially supported in any capacity in the future. With that said, I am not even sure I would be interested in a Greyhawk that had been changed in a manner similar to the Realms.

    Still, change is the only constant in life so ... Wink

    I find I am rather interested in a large scale upheaval of Oerth but not necessarily as an "official" product range/AP unless it was bloody good and fresh! Not keen on flaming mountains falling from the sky or spellplagues and so on.

    I agree with Issak regarding the new blood and Greyhawk aging. I had a good giggle at the Oil of Olay comment, especially! Happy
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:16 pm  

    I was planning to map the entire Oerth, as mentioned in one of my earlier posts. I was going to use the HEXOGRAPHER software that purchased to do the map(s) as you are now able to create old styled Greyhawk maps with it.

    I still think that the idea of using the Incursion idea from Dragon 307 with the Githiyanki has merit for an all out event across the Flanaess or even the Western portion of the Flanaess. If done on the Western portion of the Flanaess then the inpact is not as great, but still giving us a lot to work with.

    We could play out the Gith attack with a series of short adventures detailed by the community. Some of the big wig NPCs could be asked to aid in the battle in the West, leaving there apprentices behind to run things, introduction of personal characters as NPCs into Greyhawk, prime opportunity.

    or

    We detail the entire invasion and outcome of the Gith invasion, starting the new era of Greyhawk where we have small forces of resistance fighters and kingdoms fighting back to gain control of the Flanaess.

    This would mean that once enemey kingdoms would have an uneasy truce to defeat a common enemy.

    So after a couple of adventures written by the community Greyhawk is rid of the Gith due to some magic that was discovered to repel the Gith Globally, maybe druids figured out that the Gith have a reaction to a plant that grows in the peaks of the Griff Mountains after interogating a Gith captive that figure out a way to use it.

    So after all this then we could have new alliances, enemies, npcs, polical borders and whatever else that had changed due to the invasion. For that matter the western portion of oerth could be totally devistated due to the war or the Gith harvesting the area for some particular substance Oerthblood ??

    The options are endless to say the least.
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    Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:44 pm  

    I dislike the notion of a global event such as an invasion from beyond. I get Warcraft: Orcs & Humans vibes from it.

    The Flanaess is the sum of its parts. By disregarding each parts' conflicts and stories by throwing a big silly plot-device at all of them at once is not a way to save Greyhawk, it is the manner used by an author new to a setting to invalidate those who came before him.

    Greyhawk does not need another Wars or Fate of Istus. If we want new players to choose Greyhawk, the setting needs accessibility. If we want to find new personal attachments to the setting, we need to find the common ground many of us have tread in our campaigns and put them together.

    Look up at the phrase right below Canonfire. "Editions Change. Greyhawk Endures." Changing the face of Greyhawk is not endurance. Its alteration.

    We need Living Greyhawk back. It was a magnificent idea. I think organizing a much smaller version here at CF! would be not only possible, but well received. With online gaming groups being a common occurrence through the use of skype and maptools, organizing play groups from across the world would be a welcome reality.

    Now, what I could be interested in, regarding the Invasion by the Gith idea, would be a subset rules game like Wars (but good). I would be willing to produce all manner of graphics for such an endeavor. I am going to paraphrase Gary Gygax with, "what's the point of fighting in a war you know the outcome of?" If there is to be a big war thingy, it should not fall to foregone conclusions, it should be a living project with a variable outcome.

    I also like the interactive maps idea. I could seriously dork out on that kind of thing. Let's not go all Google Earth, though. NOT knowing the dark places of the Flanaess is part of the fun.
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    Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:41 am  

    What sold me on Greyhawk in the beginning was the fact that the world was presented "as is" without much guidance and absolutely no railroading as to how things would turn out; that was my job as DM and my players as characters. It was a sandbox in modern parlance.

    I've just changed my GH to suit my needs and there was a local cataclysm/disaster to suit my vision. Elsewhere though, all the changes were driven by mundane events; war, popular uprisings, political machinations etc. No gods or demons required just unleash human (oid) nature. The problem with global events is where do you go next? When the fantasy becomes evermore powerful then it rapidly becomes mundane and the only solution is to escalate further or descend into barbarism or dark ages; which could be fun, granted.

    Just my personal choice, of course. So, while I would love to see more gazeteers of various regions updated, and I like Chaotic's idea of a player driven timeline that you can pick and choose over what to use, a wholesale revision of GH, post apocalyse, I would not use.

    Final dig; anything that was produced by WOTC officially I would not touch with a Rhennee bargepole. That bridge is still in flames.
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    Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:46 am  
    Stray Thoughts

    (1) People have different responses to the term 'Greyhawk'. For some it's the Gygax/Kuntz campaign of another era. For some, it's the 'Darlene' boxed set materials. For some, it's Living Greyhawk. Are there parameters that can be drawn to enable focus on a particular definition?

    (2) I suspect that WotC's handling of Greyhawk didn't do enough to keep the interest of Classic/Old School DM's from a simpler time playing a simpler system. Whatever new vector is brought about would do well to at least try to engage all versions of the game. I'm still enchanted by the vagueness of AD&D/Greyhawk people and places.

    (3) If new materials/writing is brought to bear, what is the legal status of such efforts? Would WotC allow such materials to be put up for sale if it would help fund things like Greyhawk Online, etc.?

    (4) Most 'world/catastrophic' events are usually negative. A version of the 'Black Death' would certainly ride along the medieval flavor of Gygax's Greyhawk, but what about positive events? Can there be new discoveries in magic or even technology that are widespread?

    (5) Oerth is a place of great magic with a definite undercurrent of 'planar/otherworldly' connections. Are there threads of inquiry on this front left to explore?

    (6) Given the 'connections' of #5, above, can 'Greyhawk' concepts be brought into a fresh world. What would happen if fugitives/refugees from the Greyhawk Wars went 'somewhere else' what would they transplant with them?

    It would be great to see some activity in regard to Greyhawk materials, but overall, I get the impression that WotC would rather see the Gygax/Kuntzian 'model' disappear. Hasbro's focus is likely to be towards Family Game Night, so Greyhawk might be nothing more than a good theme for board games of the future (not a criticism... I'd love to see some D&D/Lego products come about...)
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:54 am  
    Re: Stray Thoughts

    scottsz wrote:
    (3) If new materials/writing is brought to bear, what is the legal status of such efforts? Would WotC allow such materials to be put up for sale if it would help fund things like Greyhawk Online, etc.?


    It is not about making money it is about doing something that you are passionate about and want to share with others that feel the same.
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    Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:29 am  
    Re: Stray Thoughts

    DarkHerald wrote:
    ...others that feel the same.


    The trouble is , DH, we don't all feel EXACTLY the same. One of the great things about canonfire is the articles; over the years I've printed some off and used them "as written" IMC. Others I've plundered ideas from and some just don't fit.

    Canonfire has proved an invaluable resource in this way for my campaign re-jig and I don't think a single sourcebook would be anywhere near as useful to me. I like pick and mix.
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    Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:46 am  
    Re: Stray Thoughts

    Ragr wrote:
    DarkHerald wrote:
    ...others that feel the same.


    The trouble is , DH, we don't all feel EXACTLY the same. One of the great things about canonfire is the articles; over the years I've printed some off and used them "as written" IMC. Others I've plundered ideas from and some just don't fit.

    Canonfire has proved an invaluable resource in this way for my campaign re-jig and I don't think a single sourcebook would be anywhere near as useful to me. I like pick and mix.


    I don't see how what you quoted is relative to what you are saying?

    I do exactly what you do with articles from Canonfire. All I asked when starting this thread if there were anyone that would like to help me bring Greyhawk into a new era. If I get a couple of members that are interested GREAT, if not well then I continue on my own steam.

    I thought the idea had some merrit ...... maybe I was wrong.


    Last edited by DarkHerald on Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:09 am  
    DH

    I understand what it's about, DH. I guess it's 'pick on the new guy' week.

    Here's the deal: I analyze Greyhawk modules for a hobby. I post such things online so everyone can benefit. In the coming months, you'll see how far I can take fundraising.

    All I did in my post was ask a question. The suggestion of fundraising was merely a reacton to the recent thread about Greyhawk Online, which is a very important resource for me. That's all.

    If there's a point in my previous comment that offended, just point it out and I'll try to clarify. It was not my intention to offend.
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    Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:24 am  

    Quote:
    If there's a point in my previous comment that offended, just point it out and I'll try to clarify. It was not my intention to offend.


    No worries.

    Yes I am "the new guy WRT to my signup date and number of posts, but this is under this alias. I have been using Canonfire and other sites since 2005 onwards, but haven't posted until this year.

    I would far rather have a constructive thread, that will end up going some where than having a thread with a whole lot of opinions going nowhere.
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    Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:44 am  

    My point was that this subject has come up before in various threads and very little has come of it because whilst we're singing from the same hymnsheet we're all singing in slightly different keys.

    You're right, though, my posts were negative; so I'll climb back into my burrow and eat worms.

    Lovely.
    GreySage

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    Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:22 am  

    DarkHerald wrote:
    I would far rather have a constructive thread, that will end up going some where than having a thread with a whole lot of opinions going nowhere.


    Welcome to Canonfire! Laughing

    Everyone has an opinion . . . and is entitled to it. Wink

    Everyone wants something "different" from their Greyhawk . . . and is entitled to do that too.

    This has all been tried before, as has been mentioned. The project being suggested here is more than "big," it's enormous. And problematic.

    What's being talked about is someone else's property, to wit: Wizard's of the Coast -- love them or hate them.

    How do you make a Gazetteer for public consumption -- free though it might be -- without infringing upon their legal rights? Confused

    Whether "we" like it or not . . . they own it.

    There is much to be considered here, far more than just trying to figure out "where to begin."

    I don't mean to sound like a "spoil sport," it's just food for thought. Cool

    Still, I'd like to hear "where" you are suggesting we "start," Dark Herald? Confused

    Oh! And trust me, we don't want Ragr hiding in his "burrow" eating worms. Evil Grin
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    Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:35 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Still, I'd like to hear "where" you are suggesting we "start," Dark Herald? Confused


    With a Date?

    What would be the start date of the new era Greyhawk?

    Do we pick up where LG left off at 610CY I think it was
    or do we role back the date till 599CY and bring Greyhawk into a new era with the start of a new century?

    So a) 610CY or b) 599CY or c) a later date in 6xxCY
    GreySage

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    Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:18 am  

    Hmm, that part I "saw." Smile

    I mean, do you wish to write modules specific to that "time" frame, or do you wish to do completely new write-ups for the nations, with some change-ups, as has been suggested elsewhere?

    Or, perhaps a CF version of LG as Chaoticprime has suggested?

    What "angle of attack" are you currently pursuing on your own, to which you have alluded? Confused
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    Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:32 am  

    DarkHerald wrote:
    With a Date?

    What would be the start date of the new era Greyhawk?

    Do we pick up where LG left off at 610CY I think it was
    or do we role back the date till 599CY and bring Greyhawk into a new era with the start of a new century?

    So a) 610CY or b) 599CY or c) a later date in 6xxCY


    Living Greyhawk left off in 598 CY.
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    Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:39 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Hmm, that part I "saw." Smile

    I mean, do you wish to write modules specific to that "time" frame, or do you wish to do completely new write-ups for the nations, with some change-ups, as has been suggested elsewhere?

    Or, perhaps a CF version of LG as Chaoticprime has suggested?

    What "angle of attack" are you currently pursuing on your own, to which you have alluded? Confused


    My own plans are much bigger.
    It will start in 598CY and will constitute a mjor change in western oerth, but leaving eastern oerth much as it is currently. A few minor changes in power and political influence will take place in eastern oerth.

    I was hoping to get some individuals onboard to help with this but seems everyone has such a varied opinion about the subject, so it is fruitless.

    @Rasgon thanks for the input on the end date of the LG period, it wasn't something that I really followed. I made an assumption based on a post I read earlier in the day where someone mentioned 610CY. that will teach me.

    As you have seen from my previous posts I am keen on using the Githiyanki invasion idea. It will take place at the end of the LG 598CY period.
    This will result any many of the major NPCs leaving the Flanaess to defend eastern oerth from the west invaders.

    Thus resulting in some of the more famous NPC's dying and bringing new NPC's into the light, apprentices to pick up where there masters have failed.

    Once again Greyhawk will be driven into dark times and from the darkness a new era will be born, like a rising phoenix.

    Nations will rally together to help defeat the Githiyanki invaders, as resistance fighters across the Flanaess.

    While a malevolent evil works to gain influence and power. When all is lost Incabulos will step forward with a resolve that sounds to good to be true, but will result in driving oerth into an even more dark era.

    Incabulos will provide the menas to a total wipe out of the the Githiyank invaders across the Flanaess .... but at what price.

    This will then become a campaign taking players from the Flanaess to the lower planes and then finally to the astral plane to confront the githiyanki.

    So in short:

    A history of the events and timeline that set things in motion.
    A Player's Guide to the new era.
    A DMs aid to new NPC, magic items and spells.
    A Set of adventures to take players from levels 1-20

    I will be using whatever resources are available, like the Incursion idea form Dragon 307 and whoever else would like to take part in this.

    Otherwise it will be something that I hope complete over time, by myself.
    GreySage

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    Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:00 am  

    DarkHerald wrote:
    My own plans are much bigger . . . It will start in 598CY and will constitute a major change in western Oerth, but leaving eastern Oerth much as it is currently. A few minor changes in power and political influence will take place in eastern Oerth.


    Do you mean the Eastern and Western hemispheres of Oerth?

    Oerth is the planet.

    Orik is the continent.

    The Flannaess is the eastern portion of the continent of Orik.

    Most of WoG takes place within, or closely around, the Flannaess. Nothing is known -- in canon -- about the other portions of Oerth.

    Many here are working on that. The "Beyond the Flannaess" project comes immediately to mind.

    (The link is currently down, but all of that is getting straightened out. ) Wink

    I'm not a great fan of the Greyhawk Wars and wish they had never taken place. So another major war, the Invasion of the Githyanki, doesn't really appeal to me. Sorry.

    But let me know how your project advances. I would be interested in hearing about that. Cool
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    Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:15 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Orik is the continent.


    Sorry for the correction, MS, but the right name is Oerik.

    Sergio :-)
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    Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:25 am  

    rol-oeste wrote:
    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Orik is the continent.


    Sorry for the correction, MS, but the right name is Oerik.

    Sergio :-)



    Laughing I love it! Picking on MS!

    I like the Gith, hate the idea of invasion and another war. I feel time could be better served without killing and destroying everything.
    GreySage

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    Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:13 pm  

    tigger1tom wrote:
    Laughing I love it! Picking on MS!


    Razz (Still good to "see" you Tigger!)

    Thanks Sergio! Happy

    (Typing too fast again)
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    Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:28 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    tigger1tom wrote:
    Laughing I love it! Picking on MS!


    Razz (Still good to "see" you Tigger!)

    Thanks Sergio! Happy

    (Typing too fast again)


    HAH!!! likely excuse! Happy
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    Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:52 pm  

    Here is what I would do to start.

    Build a wiki site.

    Create a separate article for each nation/area/personality of the flanaess.

    Players can freely add their own events in each article under a separate heading. The understanding would be "Possible Events."

    When I was looking to build a Salinmoor campaign, I hunted around everywhere. GVDammerung's stuff on here was a godsend. So people wanting to hunt out GH ideas can browse the wiki, look up the nation of their choice, and see what other people have done.

    When I run a GH campaign its always "The Salinmoor" or the "Perrenland" game. Each nation I make unto its own world, in a way.

    Other good contributions would be stuff like, "Paths to Sigil," "Spelljammer Ports," and other cross setting stuff.

    You know all those "What if" articles from Dragon Magazine? That's what we should do, but base them on our own games.


    The wiki articles can be formatted like this:


    Article on The Shield Lands

    Contibuted by Dark Herald

    When the Gith invaded, everyone hid under their shields...to little avail. DOOM!

    Contributed by Chaoticprime

    A party of adventurers stepped over the border and were immediately turned into shields. TWIST!

    Contributed by Rasgon

    The best possible suggestion. FACT!
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    Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:58 pm  

    DarkHerald wrote:
    My own plans are much bigger . . . It will start in 598CY and will constitute a major change in western Oerth, but leaving eastern Oerth much as it is currently. A few minor changes in power and political influence will take place in eastern Oerth.

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Do you mean the Eastern and Western hemispheres of Oerth?

    Oerth is the planet.

    Orik is the continent.

    The Flannaess is the eastern portion of the continent of Orik.

    It was a typo, meant to be Oerik ...
    A hasted reponse, to say the lease.
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    Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:23 am  

    * Double post, sorry about that *
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    Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:23 am  

    Wow ! Such a project si definitely worth it !

    Some thoughts :

    I'm not that fond of a world shaking event. Greyhawk is all about about Flaness nations. Even the Great Wars didn't affect the world as a whole. Circonstancies had many wars occur at the same times, many action taken by most factions, and as a result, it was felt as a global event, but I don't think it was.

    Living Greyhawk has made GH evolved through 8 years, with adventures, nation changes and the like. All is there ! Why not simply write history of nations during this period, based on LG modules, up to 598, just to hav a base, and then advance the timeline by 2 or 3 years to add fan ideas. The gith invasion could affect one or two nations at a time for example.

    Most of all, the design and graphics have to be appealing, so that people will like to have a look and to read on. All of this is really feasable nowaday, thanks to graphic and editing software.

    i'd really like to help, but i'm afraid my english is not good enough for such a projet. I can work on some french translation by the way :)

    -- Torgan
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    Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:11 am  

    Torgan wrote:
    Living Greyhawk has made GH evolved through 8 years, with adventures, nation changes and the like. All is there ! Why not simply write history of nations during this period, based on LG modules, up to 598, just to hav a base, and then advance the timeline by 2 or 3 years to add fan ideas. The gith invasion could affect one or two nations at a time for example.


    This is exactly what I am doing for the Bandit Kingdoms. However, this is a VERY difficult project as there were dozens of mods set in the BK. Weeding out the good mods from the bad (many early Triads consisted of people who had been admins in Living City, they were not chosen for their knowledge of Greyhawk, and thus MANY early mods are terrible) is the first step of this project, then figuring out what the actual results of the mods were comes next. Most regions failed to keep detailed results because we didn't have to. I.E., former Triad members will know the results in their heads, but no one else will.

    This amount of work would probably only be possible by someone who was a Triad member or Circle member, honestly. Very few of my former peers seem willing to engage in this kind of work even though I taunted them about it a year or two ago on our private message board. Therefore, for the most part, LG's results are going to stay lost in time until they get off their asses and write post-LG summaries for their regions. As LG has been gone over 2 years now, I doubt that will happen but we can keep our fingers crossed.

    Here is how my BK project is broken down:

    1) LG BK mod summaries (includes indexes of all BK mods sorted by year, adventure location, and plot arc as well as short detailed write ups of every BK mod and interactive) and timeline of major BK events 576-599.
    2) BK NPC write ups (44 BK NPCs are detailed)
    3) BK map by Eric Anondson modified by me to reflect LG towns and events
    4) BK 600 CY Gazetteer (not finished yet, but working on it)

    Casey
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    Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:48 am  

    Good stuff. "A" for effort.
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    Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:17 am  

    DarkHerald wrote:

    I still think that the idea of using the Incursion idea from Dragon 307 with the Githiyanki has merit for an all out event across the Flanaess


    Could you give me a synopsis? I don't have this issue.

    Githiyanki antagonists seem like a strange choice. My 3E/LG materials are sparse, but I've never read anything about them having designs on Oerth.
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    Sat Mar 26, 2011 12:42 pm  

    It was suggested that could fir any campaign world. In the article it gives you the options of Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms.

    It was not done specifically for Greyhawk.
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    Sat Mar 26, 2011 12:45 pm  

    Torgan wrote:

    i'd really like to help, but i'm afraid my english is not good enough for such a projet. I can work on some french translation by the way :)

    -- Torgan


    You seem to do better than i on a good day. LOL
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    Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:04 pm  

    This is just my opinion, but...

    I would start in bringing the Flanaess up to date with the material and results of LG. If the Triad memebers could be contacted/decided to help would be peachy.
    Since you mentioned the Githyanki Invasion campaign idea, what about bringing the Age of Worms and Savage Tide AP into "fanon" Both were obviously written with GH in mind, after all.
    If something akin to a CF LG is to be started, I propose we retake the time advancement system from LG. IE 2012 woudl correspond to CY 602.
    I would also like to explore/develop the rest of Oerth/Oerik. Has the "Beyond the Flanaess" project taken off? The forum seemed dead last time I checked. I also checked out Froideval's "Black Moon Chronicles". According to EGG, they take place within tha same Empire of Lynn present in the western Oerik map. the Tharkish empire is also mentioned. I've been spinning gears, seeing how I can fit in to the sketchy work I have.
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    Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:19 pm  

    Sudraco, your work look really great. Perhaps the help of the original triads is not that useful after all. internet can help us a lot. There use to be a site with all officially available LG files : www.holdfast.org. Unfortunately, it seems that it was brought down for copyright issues. If its webmaster were to be contacted again, I'm sure he would be able to provide us all his work on this topic.

    And, most important, LG modules, all of them, are "available" here and there on the internet, for one who knows where to search. With all these informations, much can be done.

    I did some of the work yo'ure doing about Perrenland. I've read all modules, and linked them together in core arcs plot (or stand alone). That gives a first view of what happened in the nation during the height years (and beleive me, Perrenland had a really bad time, involving Iggwilv, Drelzna, and the return of it's founder Perren). So my point is that a very precise work is perhaps not the point of a general gazeteer. We don't have to go in depth, IMO, only to get the feeling, perhaps even only basing ourselves on the adventure synopsis provided in each module.

    It's still a lot of work, but hey, we'r talking about Greyhawk rebirth :)

    -- Torgan
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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:25 am  

    If you want fan-canon, screw Age of (Stupid Half-Fiendish/Half-Vampire/Silver Dragon) Worms and Savage (There-is-only-one-outcome) Tide.

    There are campaign notes all over here at CF which are absolutely great!

    Hell, I can write the skeleton of an adventure easy as pie. I prefer to take any adventure, even published ones, and break down "the fact" into a bullet-ed list for easy reference. There is always a touch of Sherlock Holmes when I run (what with the investigating) so its good to have everything straight ahead of you.

    If anyone wants an adventure that will be fun to play, easy to follow, and custom tailored to your game, give me 48 hours notice and provide the following: where at in GH, which style (wilderness, dungeon, social), rules edition, and party level.

    Sent requests to secretskeletonminiatures@gmail.com. No fooling.
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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:53 am  

    Well as many of us recall, the idea of re-interesting old fans and aqcuiring new ones was talked about a few years ago. Many opinons were offered but nobody to my recollection could agree on things. Which in my opinon was a shame that nobody was willing to compromise for the greater good.

    I was an active member a few years ago with Canonfire and involved in the discussion of revamping Greyhawk to spark new growth.

    I think as a starting point those that are interested need to agree to make compromises in order to partake and succeed in such a project. Those who are unable to compromise may find themselves working alone.

    I'd run a poll to begin with. Each person who is serious about participating and can agree to compromise for the greater good should post their best approach to "How Greyhawk should be advanced" and let the highest voting idea win.

    Once this is settled on I would seek a compromise on what kind of supplements are necessary and what format they should be written so that they "appear" to be a collection of ideas and the supplements that are intended to mesh together. Having supplements that go together in both events and layout will bring more people into acceptance as opposed to it being a project that appears to have no cohesion what-so-ever.

    Anyway, my two coppers.

    HI RAGR, MORT AND MYSTIC SCHOLAR (WAVES WITH A PINK AND PURPLE UMBRELLA IN HAND.) I MISS YOU GUYS! YOUR THE BEST PEOPLES AND HALFLING I'VE EVER MET ON THE INTERNET.
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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:54 am  

    EileenProphetofIstus wrote:


    HI RAGR, MORT AND MYSTIC SCHOLAR (WAVES WITH A PINK AND PURPLE UMBRELLA IN HAND.) I MISS YOU GUYS! YOUR THE BEST PEOPLES AND HALFLING I'VE EVER MET ON THE INTERNET.


    SNIFF. Cry

    That's brought a tear to my eye.

    Oh....wait a minute.

    Gotta bring the washing in. Evil Grin
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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:16 am  

    EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
    HI RAGR, MORT AND MYSTIC SCHOLAR (WAVES WITH A PINK AND PURPLE UMBRELLA IN HAND.) I MISS YOU GUYS! YOUR THE BEST PEOPLES AND HALFLING I'VE EVER MET ON THE INTERNET.


    Nothing but love for you, Eileen! You know that. Why, are you not a STAR in my story? Wink Laughing

    Glad you made it "back." Cool
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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:16 am  

    I kind of like not having a consistent background. I think it would be better to have all the areas listed with not only the LG updates but then also things that others have done in their games listed to. that way each of us is free to pick and choose what we like and don't like. the biggest problem I always saw with the LG material was it kept getting bigger and biger to the point where there was a world shaking event happening in every country of the Flanesse. I did find that I have the Bissel LG guide from that Triad on my computer so if I can I will share it.
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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:34 am  

    vonbek wrote:
    I always saw with the LG material was it kept getting bigger and bigger to the point where there was a world shaking event happening in every country of the Flannaess.


    I agree.

    In our own world, World War II involved 98% of the world's population, at its height. But what is forgotten is that the vast majority of those people were used to make bullets and build planes, et al.

    They were not involved in the actual fighting, nor were their countries. Mexico, for example, is known to only have sent a couple of squadrons of aircraft to participate in the actual fighting.

    In the Greyhawk Wars, nearly every country was invaded, raped, pillaged, burned and/or slaughtered. That's just a little too much for me. One of the reasons I never cared for that particular aspect of the game.

    But that's just me. Happy
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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:46 am  

    vonbek's suggestion above would be the best fit for me too. A range of options and possible events/futures to pick and choose from would be great.
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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:18 pm  

    I agree on having a list of Future ideas for areas as well. Greyhawk was intended to be a world where the DM recevied the basics and then given the right for the DM to fill in the blanks. What we would be doing is writing new material and offer the DM a few options in which to take each country, a list of possible futures that they could choose from. The amount of detail put into each idea would have to be flexible in order for the DM to feel comfortable taking the campaign their preferred direction rather than making them feel like they have to follow a script. Personally, I think Gary would have wanted that.

    The only snag I see is looking towards the future of Greyhawk. Not all DM's would take the same road so to speak. As a result, any further works in the years to come might feel a little hand-tied, but I wouldn't let that stop anyone from exercising any of the ideas we provide. It might even be possible for us as Greyhawk Fans/particpants to further detail which areas we as individuals preferred, but provided in a later supplement or seris of related articles. I'd also make a point of linking the title of future writings to the entry provided in the Gazzateer were considering to write. This connects the dots for DM's who like our material and easily allows them to pass on ideas they don't care for. Once again, making each World of Greyhawk a little (or a lot) different than the one being played somewhere else.

    This retains the integrity of the world given to us by Gary Gygax. Once they realize we are offering multiple directions with kingdoms I think DMs will feel comfortable introducing what they want and discarding the rest as futures realities that did not come to pass.

    When we discussed this a few years ago, individuals such as Ragr, Bubba Gump, etc. were involved. I'd like to dig that thread up for reading and see what ideas were offered there and recollect some of my own. Can anybody find that old thread?
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    Last edited by EileenProphetofIstus on Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:06 pm; edited 6 times in total
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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:20 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
    HI RAGR, MORT AND MYSTIC SCHOLAR (WAVES WITH A PINK AND PURPLE UMBRELLA IN HAND.) I MISS YOU GUYS! YOUR THE BEST PEOPLES AND HALFLING I'VE EVER MET ON THE INTERNET.


    Nothing but love for you, Eileen! You know that. Why, are you not a STAR in my story? Wink Laughing

    Glad you made it "back." Cool


    Because you didn't write it that way, your story is a prelude to a greater adventure perhaps?
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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:03 pm  

    EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
    Because you didn't write it that way . . .


    Razz Nonsense! You ARE one of the stars of the story! Happy

    EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
    . . . your story is a prelude to a greater adventure perhaps?


    Well, the Temple of Istus IS looking for a new High Priestess . . . or so I hear. Wink

    Yep! We'll be moving on to bigger and greater things! Evil Grin
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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:02 pm  

    Ragr wrote:
    vonbek's suggestion above would be the best fit for me too. A range of options and possible events/futures to pick and choose from would be great.


    This is what I was going on about all last week. I am good to go with contributions, somebody build a wiki.
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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:38 pm  

    This is the thread of discussion we had a while back. It didn't end all that well but much of the information disussed was very worthwhile. The idea of providing multiple directions for the DM to choose from (in regards to writing descriptions of kingdoms) was not discussed and that alone means there are some very good fresh ideas to consider.

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2780

    By the way it took me about 45 minutes to find this thread. I hope some good comes out of it.

    And a wikisite would be the best way for us to reach others. I've started one of my own for a different game and the editing, adding on to is so easy. These days people can download from nearly everywhere.
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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:38 pm  

    While I agree that a 576 CY reboot would accommodate me, personally, it would not for most others.

    A wiki for all GH DM's to modify as appropriate is the way to go.

    We need a category for each nation, major geographic location, character, and event.

    This would be a cool way to preserve our favorite characters from our games. Write a wiki on the important ones. We can all share in Maldin's joy a little bit, haha.

    Mediawiki would be the weapon of choice for this, but we would need hosting for it, I believe.

    Suggestions?
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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:59 pm  

    Your the Priestess of the Goddess of fate. You can't see where it leads? I'm appalled. LOL What I would suggest is that if a Wiki is made to do this it has sections for each country that people want to contribute to and the first thing to be on the page is the"Official" Timeline. After that can then be everyone's own unique versions which can and should vary wildly in same case and not so much in others. For example, I am running a Thornward Game so I go in and look at the official timeline for Bissel and Ket and decide I like the Evard stuff but not the deluge and I like some of the Ket intrigue. However I decide to keep Thornward a divided city as it being a Flanae Berlin is just too good for a game. Also I would not use the towns as named in the Official Bissel info as I see that area more like eastern Europe so I have places named Krinja and Brevestia and somewhere down in the Foothills of the Barrier Pekas I have Barovia. That would be my section and then some one else make a section that builds on that and so on. I think that's the idea that people here are lookign for.
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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:42 pm  

    The point is there IS no official time-line for what we intend. We are continuing the time line by offering up our own suggestions.

    There are myriad resources, all easily available, to find out what has happened "before." It is "and now" that we're intent to manufacture.

    EDIT: I misread your above post, Vonbek. You are right, that's what we shall do. Your words were pretty crammed together and from my vantage (ten feet away on my couch reading from my 47" LED television/computer monitor) I misread it.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:48 pm  

    chaoticprime wrote:
    Your words were pretty crammed together and from my vantage (ten feet away on my couch reading from my 47" LED television/computer monitor) I misread it.


    that is so last year we dont buy in anything under 60" HD LED for home entertainment, but I suppose I would have that problem viewing that on my 47" which I use in my kitch while I cook .... Razz
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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:55 pm  

    Ok then, I can provide hosting and wiki. I already built up a simple mediawiki with some Perrenland data (http://www.torgan.net/xiki). Is that what you're looking for ?
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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:14 pm  

    @Dark Herald - I am using the servants quarters. I am having a tryst with the maid and did not feel like making the long ascent back to the manse proper.

    @Torgan - Yes, that is what I was looking for! I was looking at this yesterday, and I approve!

    We need to either make a separate set of articles to distinguish between LG and fan-made material, or a simple system of labels.

    OP = Official Product, LG = Living Greyhawk, FC = Fan Contribution

    Sound good?
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    Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:36 pm  

    chaoticprime wrote:
    @Dark Herald - I am using the servants quarters. I am having a tryst with the maid and did not feel like making the long ascent back to the manse proper.


    Sounds similar to my villa in France. It is so small compared to my estate I have in Spain. The home entertainment room rivals many IMAX theaters. You saw that coffee machine, in the new Green Hornet Movie, guess where they got the idea from ... Wink

    Razz


    Last edited by DarkHerald on Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:02 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:00 am  

    chaoticprime wrote:
    Ragr wrote:
    vonbek's suggestion above would be the best fit for me too. A range of options and possible events/futures to pick and choose from would be great.


    This is what I was going on about all last week. I am good to go with contributions, somebody build a wiki.


    I know you were, chaotic, and I neglected to give you credit due to the arrival of a plate of sauteed mushrooms and a flagon of homebrewed mead. Sometimes us hobniz take our eyes off the ball. Smile
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:09 am  

    I like where this is heading and I would fully support its implementation. I would also hope to contribute which is something I've steered clear of in the past because I felt my "style" was a little different. I also use a different game system so something that is not system dependent is fantastic.
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    Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:19 am  

    I am personally going to avoid the use of system-specific terms for my contributions. In the instance of a character, I will use Novice, Expert, & Master to relate their adventurer status. I will still, very probably, use the terms fighting-man, priest, magic-user, and thief, however.

    @Dark Herald - Please summon your bodyguards. I hit the wrong button on my remote control earlier and may have, in fact, ordered you killed by mistake. If said assassins do appear, tell them the code phrase "We all ride in the yellow submarine" and they will know to abort the operation.
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    Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:24 am  

    Ok. If that's sounds good to all, I can build up the wiki. BTW I think you already can use it as-is.

    We should decide a given structure to present data in a way it stays simple to find. Some kind of tree structure with back links. We have to focus on the "history part", and stay simple and concise.

    So, an idea of structure :

    Quote:

    * Greyhawk history by nation
    * * Alyssa
    * * * Official content
    * * * Living Greyhawk Modules (including COR* linked to the nation)
    * * * * AHL... - Summary
    * * * * ...
    * * * Fan contribution
    * * * Main event summary
    * * ...
    * * Zeif
    * Greyhawk history advances (important events - and change in the world)
    * * 591
    * * ...
    * * 599
    * Greyhawk gazeeter - CY600 (based on the model of the LGG


    What would you think of something like that ?
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    Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:56 am  

    So, its:

    Greyhawk History

    Name of Country/Characters/Events/Organizations
    *Official Content
    *Living Greyhawk
    *Fan Contributions
    **Year (DoB for characters)
    ***Summary

    I see no reason to include an Official Content category. There is already a good wiki for that, and the purpose of this is to further the time-line with our own contributions. It would be redundant to post any official anything other than to link to CF's own GH Wiki.

    I would like to have the emphasis placed on the Fan Contribution purpose of the wiki. This is about us.

    I propose this as the name of the wiki:

    Greyhawk Fan Concordance
    "We Agree to Preconceive"

    There needs to be a notation stating, "This is a fan created body of work detailing events of the World of Greyhawk that transpired at their own game tables. For official content please reference (link to GHWiki)."

    I have a pretty good record of producing great logos, btw.
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:11 am  

    This all sounds excellent to me.

    I have to confess that design and computer software/programs is far from a strong suit of mine so excuse me if I just cheerlead at this point. Confused
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:15 am  

    Ok then, let's rock !

    I've modified the main wiki page here : http://www.torgan.net/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

    Everyone should be able to create an account and modify/add pages.
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    Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:51 am  

    I have never used a wiki before, so I will have to reverse engineer present material to figure out how to contribute, but I'm up for it--later today.
    GreySage

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    Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:49 am  

    I'm curious to know how cross-posting will be received. It is my intention to post most of my written Greyhawk-related works on CF!. However, if such information is to be included in this new wiki, should I post it there as well? Are there legal ramifications - for instance, does CF! now own anything I post for the first time on its website? Will it be considered bad form to post information/articles in both places?

    SirXaris
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    Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:43 am  

    Well even if the "Official " version of things is not posted there should at least be a link to make comparisons easier.
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    Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:06 pm  

    @SirXaris - No one here would try and claim your own works as anything but. The purpose of the Concordance is to catalog all of our own GH gaming history for all to view. I labeled my contribution with my name and which of my campaigns it came from. You are free to label what you will on yours.

    @vonbek - I do not think there is a problem with you including links to other places in your Concordance entries, or paraphrasing official events in them if they are essential to your description.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:41 pm  

    SirXaris wrote:
    I'm curious to know how cross-posting will be received. It is my intention to post most of my written Greyhawk-related works on CF!. However, if such information is to be included in this new wiki, should I post it there as well? Are there legal ramifications - for instance, does CF! now own anything I post for the first time on its website? Will it be considered bad form to post information/articles in both places?

    SirXaris

    You own what you write, and you can post it wherever you like. The method of imparting information will probably be different between Canonfire and the Concordance (ie, Canonfire has a discrete article; the same on Concordance might be spread over multiple pages with links), and serve different purposes.
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    Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:15 pm  

    SirXaris wrote:
    I'm curious to know how cross-posting will be received. It is my intention to post most of my written Greyhawk-related works on CF!. However, if such information is to be included in this new wiki, should I post it there as well? Are there legal ramifications - for instance, does CF! now own anything I post for the first time on its website? Will it be considered bad form to post information/articles in both places?

    SirXaris

    From the Canonfire! FAQ:

    Quote:
    Who owns submissions to Canonfire! and/or articles that appear on the site?

    All authors retain ownership of their articles. Canonfire! does not even request exclusivity, i.e. that authors publish only to Canonfire! (although we certainly will not complain if they do). We are happy to provide links back to referring sites as well as author's own homepages.

    ...and:

    Quote:
    Canonfire!
    A Statement of Copyright

    This site is a collaborative effort of many people. The creators/authors of the various elements of this site retain all rights to those creations, and may do whatever they wish with them, including reposting them elsewhere, submitting them to a magazine, to a Living Greyhawk Triad, etc. Participation in Canonfire! does not abridge these rights.

    By submitting an article to Canonfire! you grant CF! the right to keep an unaltered copy of that article on our site in perpetuity.

    Please do not copy or repost articles and ideas from Canonfire! without obtaining specific permission to do so.

    Material can be submitted to Canonfire! in one of two ways:

    *As a submitted Article.
    *As a submitted Download.

    As to the Downloads option, we request that any files be sent to us so that we can host the file rather than have it only be hosted somewhere else. More than a few past submissions that were hosted off-site have become defunct, and now no longer work. We'd like to cut down on that and keep Articles/Downloads and their content up-to-date/relevant. There is also an Articles section for Living Greyhawk/RPGA submissions.

    Lastly, I think I speak for everyone when saying that authors are encouraged to post their material anywhere and everywhere, for simple redundancy if nothing else, though the spreading of Greyhawk might just be another reason to do so. Wink
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    Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:46 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    Lastly, I think I speak for everyone when saying that authors are encouraged to post their material anywhere and everywhere, for simple redundancy if nothing else, though the spreading of Greyhawk might just be another reason to do so. Wink


    Awesome! Smile

    Thanks for the information guys.

    SirXaris
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    Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:50 am  

    Canonfire! is not a jealous god.
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    Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:04 pm  

    I just went to the Wiki and made an account.

    I love this idea and WILL contribute.

    My Greyhawk campaign has been running consistently since the Eighties and I have had over 100 players in the last 23 to 25 years. I started my campaign around '86 and set the campaign in 520 CY.

    I ran consistently through something like 700 CY or so before hitting the fast forward button.

    The reason I bring this up is this: I am a timeline junkie and have a ton of material already in .doc format that I can post. Probably sometime this week or next I will start.
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    Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:10 pm  

    I have put up some stuff, mostly just headings. I am a chaotic person and do lots of things a little at a time.
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    Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:55 pm  

    I have added some odd bits of stuff here and there from my campaign if anybody cares.

    If the format and whatnot passes muster, I will add more later.
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:10 am  

    Guys, I hope to join up and have a look at the weekend.

    Thanks in advance for what you've already contributed.
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    Sun Apr 17, 2011 1:15 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    I'm not a great fan of the Greyhawk Wars and wish they had never taken place. So another major war, the Invasion of the Githyanki, doesn't really appeal to me. Sorry.


    -I'm not crazy about the the whole gimmicky "blow it up" thing, either...

    rasgon wrote:


    Living Greyhawk left off in 598 CY.


    -That makes sense.
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    Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:37 pm  

    This is really exciting stuff! I was planning on starting my campaign in 576'ish time frame but I like this idea way better. I think what would make this fantastic is a final wrap up as of 598 cy with a 'here is where we are' map and a Gazetter of each realm. For instance I am doing a Shield Lands/Bandit Kingdoms campaign. It would be great for me to have a jump off point with the idea that I'm not stepping on anybodies toes with where I am going. We can use everything written in the wrap up as back story for our own campaigns. As we move forward with our own stories we can mix and match with others posting theirs as well.
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    Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:51 pm  

    "Black Spine" of course was a githyanki invasion of Athas (Dark Sun). You might gleen some ideas from that. Be forewarned that there are some serious problems with the climax in the Astral. It was written by someone who knew absolutely nothing about the Astral Plane, and treated it just like a regular alternate Prime Plane (with gravity, normal time, and everything).

    Denis, aka "Maldin"
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    Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:08 pm  

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=52826#52826

    tarelton wrote:
    I do fear them "re-imagining" Greyhawk like I heard they did to FR and other worlds. If they smash it with a comet or a spell plague or something else, than it really isn't Greyhawk anymore, is it?


    Starting off where we left off:

    jamesdglick wrote:
    ...I'm not crazy about the the whole gimmicky "blow it up" thing, either...


    tarelton wrote:
    jamesdglick, are you channeling Ed Greenwood? I take that back. Your ideas are far more creative and interesting than anything generated in his "books"...


    -Nah, when blowing up GH, I roll my own!

    FWIW, I remember Ed Greenwood's work in Dragon back in the 50-100 issues, and it was thoughtful, including the Elminster stuff. I did a wiki check on FR (never played it, but I've heard of Drizt du Urlen, and I know that WOTC decided to crash a meteor into teh planet to explain D&D 3 rule changes). Ed Greenwood had been working on his campaign since 1967 (i.e. before D&D). I don't know any of the politics, but I wonder if smashing a meteor into a world he'd spent 3 decades creating wa really his idea. FWIW.

    tarelton wrote:
    ...Frankly, I think the best approach for WOTC would be to take a minimlaist approach, and work on those areas that never got much detail in sourebooks, such as the Sheldomar Valley, the Iron League, Perrenland, and the Baklunish West. They could use the latter as a jumping off point for the rest of Oerik, and it owuld not be even hard to do. Heck, they would just have to take the Old Al Qadim stuff and change the maps and names a little. That is what I always thought the best, and easiest way to describe that region was anyway...


    Things I wouldn't mind:

    1) Your idea, go back and add material for the Flanaess for CY 575-598. The danger is that they retroactively "screw something up" e.g., I don't want anyone officially turning Cobb Darg into a greyhawk dragon, a gold dragon, a red dragon, an avatar of Zilchus or whatnot. And I've already detailed most of southern and western Keoland. There are still plenty of places where i could stick an undetailed village and change the name to fit my map.Personally, I'd like more on small bases of operations than "dungeons" FWIW (Hommlet, Restenford, Garotten, The Borderlands Keep). Incidentally, I like Restenford and Garrotten. Too bad they got "blown up." But I'm still in the late 577 for the Lendore Isles, so plenty of time...

    2) Continue where Living GH left off in CY 598. Danger Will Robinson! Ka-bloom!

    3) Start working on the rest of the continent, which is not fleshed out at all, from what I can tell. Just last week, Icarus had to do some investigative reporting for us just to find out whether Stratis' alignment was CN or LN. In the west, they can add material without doing any real damage. And it would still fit in with idea 1, if they tie it in to the probable trade connections with Ekbir, Zeif, the Paynims, Ull, the Sea of Dust area, and the Cauldron/Sessarine area, most of which hasn't been detailed, or even touched.

    tarelton wrote:
    I do fear them "re-imagining" Greyhawk like I heard they did to FR and other worlds. If they smash it with a comet or a spell plague or something else, than it really isn't Greyhawk anymore, is it?


    -We can only hope that the crew that would work on it has actually bothered to read the canon and checks each other's work. But small apparent mistakes aren't the end of the world- it gives you a chance to creatively reconcile the apparent inconsistencies! But nothing major, please.
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