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    Canonfire :: View topic - What race/species were the Mage-Priests?
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    What race/species were the Mage-Priests?
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    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 12, 2003
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    Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:13 pm  
    What race/species were the Mage-Priests?

    If you had to stat up Tzunk and crew, what race would they be? Human? Has this ever been established in canon?

    TIA.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:24 pm  

    For my part, based on the best evidence they were Flan, but there's no official word. But then they could have been Flan who were ruled by an older unknown race or just of a similar race but one which had dealings with Flan states.
    It is debatable though that Tzunk was contemporaneous with the Isles of Woe, and I'm in the camp that believes he was not. His name and connection to the City of Brass makes me think of him as Baklunish, or from a people that became part of the Baklunish Empire and culture, but that's just my opinion.
    GreySage

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    Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:26 am  

    Best evidence is that the Isles of Woe were Flan, because they appeared on the list of Flan contemporaries of Veralos. It's possible they weren't, since it wasn't explicit, but it seems likely.

    Some sources have Tzunk as the last wizard-priest, but the 1e DMG had him as a single-class wizard who lived after the sinking of Woe. I think of him as a scholar of Veralos who made his way up to the wastes and created the Burning Cliffs by opening a rift to the City of Brass.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:17 am  

    Veralos is a nice choice of an origin for Tzunk. Did the proximity of the Tomb of Tzunk's Hands influence you in linking him to the Burning Cliffs?

    In my thinking of him as a Baklunish or pre-Baklunish wizard I can see him being an influence on the founding of the City of the Gods due to the connection to the City of Brass and the role the efreet played in the CotG's founding. Yeah, the efreet probably hated him but one of his apprentices may have used his work to base dealings with the efreet on.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:13 am  

    Cool, thanks for the answers. I'm trying to reconcile some LG stuff for my BK project.

    Would it be right to say that if Tzunk and crew were Flan, they pre-dated the Ur-Flan in the northern Flanaess? Basically, during LG, we came up with the concept that Dahlvier was a contemporary of Tzunk's. I don't have Dragon 191, isn't Dahlvier mentioned in that?

    Thanks again.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:20 am  

    aurdraco wrote:
    I don't have Dragon 191, isn't Dahlvier mentioned in that?


    From what I see, only Dahlvier's County is mentioned as a location for high-level adventures (p. 68).
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:44 am  

    aurdraco wrote:

    Would it be right to say that if Tzunk and crew were Flan, they pre-dated the Ur-Flan in the northern Flanaess?


    That likely depends on some to degree if one defines "Ur-Flan" as a separate (or predecessor) ethnic group or as a profession. Some sources seem to regard the Ur-Flan as a caste of arcane practitioners, while other sources imply they were an ethnic group.

    My personal take is that they were a pre-migrations human ethnic group that stood out from the others due to their magical skill and dealings with dark entities (such as Ahmon-Ibor & Tiamat). I like Rip's idea of identifying them with the Vasharans (BoVD).

    In Vecna: Hand of the Revenant, Vecna's mother, Mazell, recounts an ancient tale of how the Serpent brought magic to the Ur-Flan:

    "Our ancestors are said to have learned arcane magic from a great serpent they named Mok’Slyk who appeared in the sky one night. It gave the gift of wizardry to all the Ur-Flan people though since that time, every Ur-Flan tribe but ours has either been destroyed by witch-hunters or has forgotten Mok’Slyk."

    Mazell further explains to her son that “in order to preserve its gift, Mok’Slyk consumes the spirits of the dead who revered it in life, absorbing everything that person learned in this world to pass on to the next generation of rulers,” and that “only the great god-kings could speak with Mok’Slyk while they were still living and now they are gone with the ancient empires.”

    Finally, Mazell tells Vecna that “The legend of Mok’Slyk has been with our people since before the first words were written and the first brick put to a city.”

    I'm of the opinion that the "god-kings" and "Ancient Empires" mentioned by Mazell refer to the heyday of the Isles of Woe, which was a shadow of its former glory by Vecna's time (IMO).
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:44 pm  

    aurdraco wrote:
    Cool, thanks for the answers. I'm trying to reconcile some LG stuff for my BK project.

    Would it be right to say that if Tzunk and crew were Flan, they pre-dated the Ur-Flan in the northern Flanaess? Basically, during LG, we came up with the concept that Dahlvier was a contemporary of Tzunk's. I don't have Dragon 191, isn't Dahlvier mentioned in that?

    Thanks again.


    There's not much detail on Dahlvier, though it is stated in that he is human (LGG), well, undead human Smile , and that his castle is built on the "...ruins of a high elven city razed by Oeridians nearly nine hundred years ago" (Iuz the Evil). Not much to go on and nothing definitive, so him being a contemporary of Tzunk should work fine. I always thought of the Ur-Flan as being more ancient than Tzunk, but haven't put the thought into it that Rob and Rasgon have. It's mainly based on my thinking that the Wizard-priests of the Isles of Woe were Ur-flan, but then everything seems to get blamed on the Ur-flan so maybe I should cut them some slack.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:52 pm  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    Veralos is a nice choice of an origin for Tzunk. Did the proximity of the Tomb of Tzunk's Hands influence you in linking him to the Burning Cliffs?


    Yep, exactly. It makes more sense for him to be there that way. Plus, we know there's a portal to the City of Brass in that region in canon. I assume after he failed in his bid to conquer the city, the efreet chopped him up and put his hands in the wastes nearby on the world from which he came.

    Of course, Living Greyhawk changed them to Yagrax's hands instead.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:44 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    Of course, Living Greyhawk changed them to Yagrax's hands instead.

    Ya, I'm afraid that was me.
    The 1st Edition material makes it pretty clear that the Wizard-Priest that ruled the empire of the Isles of Woe was named Yagrax, and that Tzunk was a lone wizard that came along at a completely unrelated time. The "Tomb of Tzunk's Hands" being linked to "Wizard-Priest" was in my opinion one of those rare errors in Carl Sargent's canon research. (Nobody is perfect.) Roger Moore then seriously messed up the legends regarding the Codex and the history of the Isles of Woe in "Greyhawk: The Adventure Begins".

    When Living Greyhawk began the Ether Threat series of adventures (CORS2-02 Isles of Woe, COR2-11 Escape from Tenh, COR2-13 Into the Dying Lands, COR3-02 Return to the Isles, COR3-10 Sepulcher of the Wizard King, and COR3-12 Endgame) I had a conversations regarding the the Isles of Woe, the Codex and their histories with Steven Conforti and David Christ, and provided the LG Circle with information laying out a lot of the background (game and publishing) of the Isles and the Codex. For this reason, the Tomb of Tzunk's Hands was corrected to the Tomb of Yagrax' Hands in LG canon. (Actually, I believe the first mod in the series was originally released with Tzunk's name for the first con it was available for because it was too late to change it in time, but was then quickly changed for all later releases.)

    I later took the discussion I had sent to the LG Circle (the parts that weren't already in my Codex article), expanded upon it, gave it an "in character" twist, and posted it to my website as The Isles of Woe for all to enjoy.

    Denis, aka "Maldin"
    Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
    Loads of edition-independent Greyhawk goodness... maps, mysteries, magic, mechanics, and more!
    And your Codex of the Infinite Planes headquarters!
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:43 am  

    Maldin wrote:
    Ya, I'm afraid that was me.


    I think you done screwed up, Denis. One of your extremely rare errors.

    Quote:
    The 1st Edition material makes it pretty clear that the Wizard-Priest that ruled the empire of the Isles of Woe was named Yagrax, and that Tzunk was a lone wizard that came along at a completely unrelated time.


    Agreed! (Sort of. The unnamed Wizard-Priest didn't have to be Yagrax, who could have been yet another person altogether, but it was pretty clear the Wizard-Priest wasn't Tzunk).

    Quote:
    The "Tomb of Tzunk's Hands" being linked to "Wizard-Priest" was in my opinion one of those rare errors in Carl Sargent's canon research.


    Also agreed!

    But!

    Sargent imagined Tzunk as an entity who had grown so powerful that he was able to survive both the sinking of the Isles of Woe and dismemberment at the hands of the vengeful efreet and still live on.

    If Tzunk was not the Wizard-Priest of the Isles of Woe, then there's no reason to believe the Wizard-Priest survived the destruction of his islands. The most reasonable assumption is that he drowned when his empire drowned (or was transported to the Ethereal Plane, whatever). What would he be doing in pieces far to the north? That would only happen if he went on to cause yet more trouble with the Codex, in the same way that someone who changed his name to Tzunk and tried to conquer the City of Brass would.

    The character who should exist as a pair of severed hands imprisoned in a tomb in the northern wastes should be the same as the character who attempted to conquer the City of Brass, who the Codex had made so powerful that even the four-million-strong legions of the efreet couldn't destroy him entirely: therefore, he should be Tzunk, whose prison up north near the strange, anomalous gateway to the City of Brass actually makes sense.

    That is to say, it's not the "Tzunk" part that Sargent got wrong. It's the "wizard-priest" part. You fixed the wrong part!

    Yagrax was the last Wizard-Priest of the Isles of Woe. It was under Yagrax's watch that the islands disappeared from the face of the Oerth. There's no reason to tie him to anything else.

    Tzunk is the one whose hands are entombed in the frozen north, eternally seeking to reunite his scattered body.

    I know Living Greyhawk made the best of the "hands" it was dealt (by you, apparently!), coming up with an elaborate backstory that explained why Yagrax didn't sink with the rest of his kingdom and ended up with his hands in such an improbable place but... I don't like it. It's counterintuitive and fails to recognize what I think is a relatively neat connection between different accounts of what is known of Tzunk's fate.

    It means one character (Yagrax, the Wizard-Priest) ends up nowhere near where he would reasonably be, and another character's logical destination is disrupted... what the heck did the efreet do with Tzunk, then? He had an interesting ending given to him by Sargent, and now he has none.

    Quote:
    the Tomb of Tzunk's Hands was corrected to the Tomb of Yagrax' Hands in LG canon.


    You done screwed up!

    It was better before. Sargent's story (that Tzunk was so unstoppable that even the inundation of his homeland and total dismemberment couldn't end him permanently) makes sense on its own terms. Why does Tzunk appear in the chronicle after the islands he supposedly ruled went away? Because he's just that much of a badass. Logical enough, in its way.

    I do think separating the two characters, Tzunk and the Wizard-Priest (Yagrax), is better than keeping them the same. Tzunk can be an unstoppable quasi-deity whether or not he ever lived on the Isles of Woe, and Yagrax can be the Wizard-Priest since otherwise we have no idea who Yagrax might have been. If the only "correction" you made was the one made in Grodog's "Artifacts of Oerth" article in the LGJ, identifying Yagrax, not Tzunk, as the former ruler of the Isles, then I'd say "Good show! That's a pretty good retcon, or reversal of a retcon."

    But messing with the Tomb of Tzunk's Hands? You corrected something that wasn't broken! Just because Tzunk isn't the Wizard-Priest doesn't mean the other story elements that properly belong to him should be taken away as well.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:22 am  

    LOL. I guess this is going to have to be one of the rare instances where we disagree, rasgon.

    Here’s the text in question that we’re discussing from Iuz the Evil (for those spectators that don’t have it:

    “The Tomb of Tzunk's Hands: Tzunk, Wizard-Priest of the quasi-mythical Isles of Woe which sunk below the Nyr Dyv in prehistory, is said to have had his body sundered into a hundred parts to thwart any attempt at resurrection. The portions were scattered to the winds, burned in fire, dissolved in acidic waters, and buried below the earth. Great golems with special powers such as paralysis, petrification, and worse are said to guard a tomb holding his hands here. The approaches to the tomb chamber are riddled with traps, mazes, secret portals and passages, and many magical hazards. If retrieved from their resting place, the hands are said to animate themselves, serving the one who rescued them as divinatory tools, but seeking out the other parts of Tzunk's indestructible, scattered body and slowly beginning to take over the mind of their owner.”

    For me, the most parsimonious solution, is the one which requires the least change. For my solution, there need be only one word changed… Tzunk to Yagrax… and everything works out fine. For your solution, half of the historical sentence must be deleted.

    Most artifacts, to my mind, pass through history in a manner different than other items. They appear in the timeline seemingly from nowhere, wreak epic havoc, then disappear again into the mists of time only to reappear again in an unpredictable time and location, but usually after much time has passed and in a completely unrelated (to previous “happenings”) situation. For that reason, unless there is a very convincing argument (or an irresistible plot reference), I prefer separate historical manifestations of an artifact to not be directly related to previous appearances.

    The Wizard-Priest Yagrax had the Codex long enough (and utilized its powers frequently enough) to build considerable power, enough so as to build a mighty empire. Certainly through the use of the Codex, he could have gained near-indestructibility, meaning that he certainly could have survived the sinking of the Isles. Heck, such a powerful individual should easily be able to leave the vicinity despite the distortion field I describe in my article (unless of course other powers of the Codex were activated simultaneously).

    There is no canonical evidence whatsoever to connect Tzunk with the Isles of Woe, and he certainly (as we both agree) was not the Wizard-Priest that built the Empire of the Isles of Woe. Again, the most parsimonious answer is that Tzunk had nothing to do with the Isles, for this reason and for the reason I gave above regarding the Codex’s chaotic meandering through Greyhawk’s timeline. The Empire would have lasted a relatively short time (if for no other reason other than the impossibility of holding the Codex for long without a cataclysm happening), and people (including myself) prefer to have Tzunk hundreds of years before or after the time of the Wizard-Priest (that whole “disappearing for ages” property of artifacts). There is no reason to construct a Woe connection. In my mind, Tzunk found the Codex, knew (or discovered) its powers, and immediately trotted off to the coolest place he could think of, the City of Brass. His first and only attempt to use the Codex was less than successful. I feel no need or desire to give Tzunk near-unstoppable powers. His use of the Codex ultimately failed, and resulted in his demise at the hands of the efreet. Thus ends the story of Tzunk.

    So, the Tomb? When the near-indestructible Wizard-Priest (ultimately, he was destroyed, after all), the bits had to be scattered. Yagrax was from Oerth, his empire was built on Oerth, and there is no evidence to suggest he ever left Oerth. It is not surprising that his tomb is on Oerth. He couldn’t be entombed on his precious Isles because they existed no longer. And besides, his enemies would want his remains as far away from his seat of power as possible just in case, so why not the Wastes? It is as remote as you can get on the continent. That’s where I would put him! ;)

    Tzunk was likely from Oerth (although we technically don’t have clear evidence for that other than that his legend is told here), however he not only travelled to other planes… he met his demise on another distant plane. Why the heck would the efreet send his bits back to Oerth? If there were any bits left of him, the City of Brass would be the most likely place to find them.

    In any event… I’m sure rasgon and I would completely agree on this: Greyhawk DMs can adopt any story they wish for their campaign. As for official canon, when all of this discussion was happening between myself and the LG powers-that-be back almost 10 years ago, I sent Erik a summary. He was convinced enough to label the “Tomb of Yagrax’s Hands” on the official 4-part Greyhawk megamap that was published in Dungeon Magazine. So I guess that's that. YMMV

    Denis, aka "Maldin"
    Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com

    Edit/Addendum: I'm confused a bit by your timing, rasgon. Are you proposing that Tzunk had the Codex at the same time as the Wizard-Priest did? It would seem he would have to if the all-powerful Codex-buffed Tzunk survived the destruction of the Isles (which were destroyed because of the Wizard-Priest's use of the Codex)
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:04 pm  

    Interesting stuff, Rasgon and Maldin.

    For my purposes, let me throw this out there (I believe Britt's intent was for Dahlvier to be a contemporary of the mage-priests' ruler. Since I am working on Dahlvier's entry for my BK project, I am trying to get this all sorted out in my head):

    If Yagrax was the mage-priest of the Isles of Woe, were they Flan? Maldin's Codex write-up has Old Oeridian for his signature in the Codex. I thought the Isles of Woe predated the migrations. Weren't the Oeridians barbaric nomads who fled the Suel/Balkluni wars? If so, how did they become mage-priests? (ancient Oerth history is NOT my strong point).

    Maybe I should just post Dahlvier's entry and see what we collective can hash out to make it work.
    GreySage

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    Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:41 pm  

    Maldin wrote:
    For me, the most parsimonious solution, is the one which requires the least change. For my solution, there need be only one word changed… Tzunk to Yagrax… and everything works out fine. For your solution, half of the historical sentence must be deleted.


    Changing a name means the addition of a vast unknown backstory explaining why Yagrax needed to be dismembered and why his hands had to be buried so far away from his homeland. I don't consider that to be everything working out fine. It requires a lot of changes to the canon.

    My solution requires the deletion of one-third of a sentence, leaving everything else intact. Definitely simpler than changing every instance of a name, the name of the entire dungeon, and the latter half of a character's story.

    I mean, since the Tomb of Tzunk's Hands is a site that exists because of a character's "death," it's the part of his biography that led to his "death" that's most relevant, not a life on some islands somewhere that didn't even directly lead to his destruction (or at least, didn't in Sargent's version - the "first act" of Tzunk's career is basically irrelevant). So the latter part - Tzunk's attempt to conquer the City of Brass and his subsequent disappearance - should be the salient part of the backstory.

    And to put it another way, even if you decided for some reason that the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth should properly be renamed the Lost Caverns of Iggwilv (not that you would), renaming the whole dungeon seems like a rather more drastic step than changing a third of a sentence in the dungeon's description.

    Your justifications explain neatly why you wanted the Wizard-Priest and Tzunk to be separate entities, but you still fixed the wrong part!

    You know how you feel about Sargent merging two characters who you feel shouldn't have been merged? That's how I feel about this.

    Quote:
    There is no canonical evidence whatsoever to connect Tzunk with the Isles of Woe


    There's no canonical evidence in Eldritch Wizardry, the 1st edition DMG, Book of Artifacts, or Tales of the Lamp. Subsequent to that, we have evidence that Tzunk and the Wizard-Priest are the same person in Iuz the Evil and The Adventure Begins, which isn't zero evidence, even if you discount it. It's certainly possible that the Wizard-Priest used the Codex to inscribe his soul on Tzunk's, centuries in the future, as Fallendor did in "Zeb" Cook's "The Plane Truth" series in Dragon, in order to escape his watery doom, for example, and this wouldn't invalidate any 1e or 2e sources at all.

    I'd argue that we have zero canonical evidence that the Mage-Priest escaped the destruction of his homeland. Of course that argument is wrong, but it's only wrong if you accept the sources you've already argued don't count. The only evidence that claims that the Wizard-Priest escaped the Isles is the same evidence that claims he was Tzunk. If he wasn't Tzunk, he didn't escape the Isles.

    That said, I do like making Tzunk and the Wizard-Priest separate beings, and I totally agree that most early sources imply this.

    Quote:
    The Empire would have lasted a relatively short time (if for no other reason other than the impossibility of holding the Codex for long without a cataclysm happening)


    I like to imagine it lasted in some form for centuries before Yagrax got a hold of the book. I'll finish my lengthier write-up someday, but essentially I imagine it as a Boccob-worshiping theocracy for whom collecting knowledge of the planes of existence became an all-consuming obsession. There were many Wizard-Priests ruling the monastic theurges, each generation adding to their vast library.

    And then one day, during the reign of the last Wizard-Priest, Yagrax, who had gone further in his mental journeys than any other, and contacted a bizarre entity at the fringes of the multiverse, an entity that was at once a book and something more... the library was completed. A great clap was heard, like a tome the size of an entire island slamming shut its covers, and the entire library of the Wizard-Priests was gone. In its place was a single book.

    Quote:
    , and people (including myself) prefer to have Tzunk hundreds of years before or after the time of the Wizard-Priest


    And me too!

    Quote:
    I feel no need or desire to give Tzunk near-unstoppable powers.


    I see no more persuasive reason to give Yagrax near-unstoppable powers. If the Codex could make Yagrax near-unstoppable, it could do the same thing for Tzunk just as easily. Yagrax overreached himself and his empire drowned. Thus ended the saga of Yagrax.

    But I see a very good reason to make Tzunk nigh-indestructible. He thought he could take on the entire army of the efreet single-handedly. That cockiness demands an explanation, and being nigh-indestructible is a great one.

    Quote:
    So, the Tomb? When the near-indestructible Wizard-Priest (ultimately, he was destroyed, after all), the bits had to be scattered.


    Why would he need to be destroyed?

    I mean, it seems like a pretty good question. This is a character whose whole story, if we discount the Tzunk connection, is built around the saga of the Isles of Woe. With his empire gone, who needed him in pieces that badly?

    With Tzunk, it makes sense. They couldn't kill him, but he'd violated their most sacred ground. They had to do something.

    Yagrax? His story is over. Why connect him to some completely unrelated patch of real estate? Yagrax doesn't belong there. Tzunk does.

    Tzunk's tomb belongs to whoever "died" the way that Tzunk died. Obviously, I mean: just like St. Peter's tomb is for whoever died the way that St. Peter died.

    Quote:
    Yagrax was from Oerth, his empire was built on Oerth, and there is no evidence to suggest he ever left Oerth. It is not surprising that his tomb is on Oerth. He couldn’t be entombed on his precious Isles because they existed no longer. And besides, his enemies would want his remains as far away from his seat of power as possible just in case, so why not the Wastes? It is as remote as you can get on the continent. That’s where I would put him! ;)


    Well, first of all, you'd have to explain what enemies he had that knew where he was and were able to hunt him down. For Tzunk, we have that answer. For Yagrax, we have to invent them, which is why your theory is so much more convoluted and awkward than mine. I mean, yeah, any other surviving inhabitants of the Isles of Woe would be mad at him if they knew he was responsible for the loss of their homeland and if they could find him.

    Occam's razor would suggest that the theory that requires the creation of the least additional entities should be preferred. If the tomb is Tzunk's, then we have, more or less, Yagrax's complete story (ending with the inundation of the Isles of Woe) and Tzunk's complete story (ending with his dismemberment at the hands of the efreet). There's no need to create anything else. If the tomb was Yagrax's, then we have this whole continent-spanning saga to fill in, long after Yagrax's story should have been over.

    Quote:
    Why the heck would the efreet send his bits back to Oerth?


    Iuz the Evil said his bits were scattered all over. Sending some of them through the portal he came from seems like a pretty reasonable idea to me. Greyhawk Adventures already stated there was a portal leading from the City of Brass to the Barren Wastes.

    Now, which is a less convoluted explanation: that the efreet moved part of his bits through a portal that was right nearby or Yagrax's hypothetical enemies carted his bits all the way across the continent to a place that has nothing to do with him? If it's so unbelievable that the efreet would move Tzunk's remains out of the City of Brass, why is it believable that Yagrax's enemies would move his extra parts out of the Nyr Dyv region? Sounds like a double standard to me.

    If Yagrax's enemies could be busily trundling off his wriggling organs to each end of the continent, it seems even more reasonable to assume the efreet were schlepping Tzunk-bits a few kilometers through a portal to Oerth, perhaps leaving some others in a vault in their city, putting some others in a tower on the Plane of Fire, and maybe tossing some last bits through a portal to the Nine Hells. They didn't want him to come back and bother them again.

    Plus the constructs in Tzunk's tomb look like efreeti work, to me.

    And finally, it's obvious that the creator of the Tomb of Tzunk's Hands, Carl Sargent, intended for Tzunk to be buried there even after the City of Brass incident, because... that's what he did. The idea that the efreet (or conceivably some later enemy, but most probably the efreet) put the hands in the tomb shouldn't be in question. It's just all that early business with the islands that's doubtful.

    Quote:
    In any event… I’m sure rasgon and I would completely agree on this: Greyhawk DMs can adopt any story they wish for their campaign.


    Yeah, of course.

    Quote:
    I sent Erik a summary. He was convinced enough to label the “Tomb of Yagrax’s Hands” on the official 4-part Greyhawk megamap that was published in Dungeon Magazine.


    Yeah, I know. Grrr. I ranted at that map for five hours straight, but the bloody thing never answered for its crimes.

    I'll get you for this.

    However, I don't acknowledge that that map is more "canon" than any other officially published map. I mean, not anymore than Iuz the Evil was more canonical than the 1st edition DMG. If you're going to prefer the original sources in the latter case, why not in the former?

    Plus, calling it Yagrax's tomb is a pretty obvious screw-up.

    Quote:
    Edit/Addendum: I'm confused a bit by your timing, rasgon. Are you proposing that Tzunk had the Codex at the same time as the Wizard-Priest did?


    What? Where did you get that idea? No, I think of him as a scholar in Veralos who researched his citadel's library for stories of the long-sunk Isles of Woe, and eventually pieced together clues of how he might link his mind with the faraway artifact.

    Quote:
    It would seem he would have to if the all-powerful Codex-buffed Tzunk survived the destruction of the Isles (which were destroyed because of the Wizard-Priest's use of the Codex)


    Oh. No, that was Sargent's idea, since he thought of the Wizard-Priest and Tzunk as one and the same. My idea doesn't have Tzunk in the Isles, but centuries later, as I think the DMG implies.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3284
    From: Michigan

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    Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:46 pm  

    aurdraco wrote:
    If Yagrax was the mage-priest of the Isles of Woe, were they Flan? Maldin's Codex write-up has Old Oeridian for his signature in the Codex. I thought the Isles of Woe predated the migrations. Weren't the Oeridians barbaric nomads who fled the Suel/Balkluni wars? If so, how did they become mage-priests? (ancient Oerth history is NOT my strong point).


    Maldin made them Oeridian long before Gary Holian's Veralos article implied they were Flan. I don't think the Oeridian connection works anymore, since they were supposed to be contemporaries of Veralos (though Veralos outlived them by centuries), and Veralos itself died only just as the Oeridians were first arriving in the area.

    We don't know for certain that the Isles of Woe were Flan. Some have theorized they were the ancestors of the Rhennee. But the Flan identification seems fairly likely.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
    Posts: 1844
    From: Mt. Smolderac

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    Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:40 pm  

    Careful guys, you're going to have Mort speculating about the existence of Yatzunkgrax.
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
    Posts: 170
    From: Second Primordial Ooze on the Left

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    Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:32 am  

    LOL... yes, I'm sure mort can come up with something quite clever about all this. Rasgon and I passionately agree on so much regarding Greyhawk, the Planes, and other things, it truly is scary. It was bound to happen that we'd find something we passionately disagree on. Thats ok. I think we both create a pretty good argument for either side. Its all personal preference, and people can choose what they want. Its all so very "Greyhawk". The Yagrax/Tzunk controversy has always been in good company... Eclavdra, Avras/Thrommel/Fragarach, Castle Hart, the Nine "Demigods", Iuz and the ToEE, Tuerny, Drelzna, etc.

    Sorry rasgon, I got there first. :raspberry: Get over it. ;)

    One thing that people should keep in mind (and rasgon already mentioned this in his response to aurdraco)... my ideas on the Codex, Tzunk and Yagrax were all formulated long before Living Greyhawk (and before Holian's article), even before Moore began to pen Greyhawk: The Adventure Begins (hence my particular disdain for the crimes he committed to the legends there). Heck, my Codex article was even originally posted to Greytalk and available to the public long before he began to write that publication.

    Sure, hindsight is great. Perhaps the constructs in the LG mod are reminiscent of efreet, but they didn't exist at the time all this was going down. Maybe if we had had the chance to all get together before LG, before TAB even, and hammer out an epic history.... who knows. But then, Roger wouldn't have listened anyways. ;) I'm glad SKR listened to me about Kyuss, though!

    Denis, aka "Maldin"
    Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3284
    From: Michigan

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    Tue Jul 19, 2011 9:22 am  

    Maldin wrote:
    Perhaps the constructs in the LG mod are reminiscent of efreet, but they didn't exist at the time all this was going down.


    I haven't read the LG mod. I just meant that the brief description of constructs mentioned in Iuz the Evil made me think of efreet.

    And Carl Sargent got there first!
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