Username Password
   or Create an Account
HomeForumsFAQArticlesReviewsDownloadsLinksTop 20Feedback
 Features
 
Greyhawk Wiki
Is Down :(


 
Canonfire :: View topic - Keolandish Heraldry, circa 370-400 CY
Keolandish Heraldry, circa 370-400 CY

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Canonfire Forum Index -> Keoland
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
SirXaris
GreySage


Joined: Jul 26, 2010
Posts: 2310
Location: LG Dyvers

PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:48 pm    Post subject: Keolandish Heraldry, circa 370-400 CY Reply with quote

I'm trying to discover what noble family would have been the ruling nobility in Keoland about 200 years before the current range of Common Year dates (571-598 CY). I am curious as to the family name (and that of any individuals listed) and what the families coat of arms/heraldry looked like.

If anyone knows and could simply tell me, that would be great! It would also be nice to be pointed to a source or two via links.

Thanks! Smile

SirXaris

P.S. If this should be in the new Keoland Region forum, admins, please move it. SX
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
smillan_31
Grandmaster Greytalker


Joined: Nov 07, 2004
Posts: 1817
Location: Mt. Smolderac

PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

371-398 CY would have been house Rhola under Tavish II "The Blackguard" (346-395) aka the Jerk Who Issued the Wealsun Proclamation. From 395 to 414 Luschan Sellark IV of House Rhola ruled as regent. The Sellarks seem to be a branch of House Rhola who hold title to the Duchy of Gradsul. No clue what the Rhola coat of arms might be. If no one knows we could have a contest ;)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jamesdglick
Grandmaster Greytalker


Joined: Jul 09, 2003
Posts: 1116
Location: Clarksville, TN

PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

smillan_31 wrote:

371-398 CY would have been house Rhola under Tavish II "The Blackguard" (346-395) aka the Jerk Who Issued the Wealsun Proclamation. From 395 to 414 Luschan Sellark IV of House Rhola ruled as regent. The Sellarks seem to be a branch of House Rhola who hold title to the Duchy of Gradsul. No clue what the Rhola coat of arms might be. If no one knows we could have a contest ;)


-I'd think that Keoland's black lion rampant on red would have come from either House Rhola or Neheli. Perhaps a combination? One used red and black, the other used a lion?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Crag
Master Greytalker


Joined: Aug 17, 2004
Posts: 893
Location: Computer Desk

PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its odd, but the keoland houses tend to get short changed especially given their importance to the events of the sheldomar valley. Extensive information abounds about those furyondian warmongers. Is it simply the whole "Iuz effect".

I digress, heraldry is often a compromise and blending of familial arms. It makes sense that House Rhola or Neheli would recognize the need. Historical: House Lancaster and York: House Tudor or even Great Britain; Scottish St. Andrew Cross and the English Cross of St. George to form the Union Jack.

It would possess historical significance as too which house had the upper hand at the time of the monarchical compromise.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
rasgon
GreySage


Joined: Aug 03, 2001
Posts: 2734
Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crag wrote:
It would possess historical significance as too which house had the upper hand at the time of the monarchical compromise.


That would be the Neheli (Nyhan I). It does seem likely that the "Black Lion Throne" originated as the Neheli throne, unless that was something the Rhola later imported from their base in Gradsul. But no, I think the traditional Rhola effects would just remain in Gradsul, and Rhola kings would have to make a trip down there to perform the appropriate rituals. The real-world counterexample would be the Stone of Scone, but I see the Duke of Gradsul having more bargaining power with the king than the Scottish had with England (until recently).

As a side note, I hate the idea of the two houses making some kind of treaty to alternate which house gets control of the throne. It's so artificial, and like nothing I can imagine anyone doing in real life. More reasonably, when the houses of Neheli and Rhola came together to found the kingdom, they'd cement their tie by intermarrying. King Nyhan would've married a Rhola princess, and the Rhola princes would have married Neheli princesses, and both houses would've thus had hereditary claim to the throne.

Len Lakofka's and Steve Wilson's timeline in Oerth Journal #11 has Rhola as the house of the first emperor of the Suloise in 1102 SD, "worshipers of Jascar and other Suloise deities of weal." The house of Neheli, in that timeline, were originally worshipers of Lydia, and first took the throne of the Suel Imperium around 1500 years later. I don't know if any of that would be relevant to their present-day heraldry, but it might be.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
SirXaris
GreySage


Joined: Jul 26, 2010
Posts: 2310
Location: LG Dyvers

PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks fellas! That's all very helpful.

SirXaris
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
smillan_31
Grandmaster Greytalker


Joined: Nov 07, 2004
Posts: 1817
Location: Mt. Smolderac

PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jamesdglick wrote:
smillan_31 wrote:

371-398 CY would have been house Rhola under Tavish II "The Blackguard" (346-395) aka the Jerk Who Issued the Wealsun Proclamation. From 395 to 414 Luschan Sellark IV of House Rhola ruled as regent. The Sellarks seem to be a branch of House Rhola who hold title to the Duchy of Gradsul. No clue what the Rhola coat of arms might be. If no one knows we could have a contest ;)


-I'd think that Keoland's black lion rampant on red would have come from either House Rhola or Neheli. Perhaps a combination? One used red and black, the other used a lion?


I've made up an order of Keoish knights in my Sterich campaign, the Knights of the Golden Lions, composed mainly of strongly Suloise -blooded knights from southern keoish noble families. I haven't made up arms for them yet but I'm thinking 3 gold lions passant on a red field, based on the royal arms of England, established by Richard the Lionheart. This could be related to some of the families of house Rhola, who are allied and members of this order. I'm with rasgon on the Black Lion throne originating with the Neheli.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rasgon
GreySage


Joined: Aug 03, 2001
Posts: 2734
Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Given the family's roots in Gradsul, perhaps a sea lion (the chimerical hybrid, not the real animal) rampant would be appropriate arms for the Rhola.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
jamesdglick
Grandmaster Greytalker


Joined: Jul 09, 2003
Posts: 1116
Location: Clarksville, TN

PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rasgon wrote:
Given the family's roots in Gradsul, perhaps a sea lion (the chimerical hybrid, not the real animal) rampant would be appropriate arms for the Rhola.




-At first glance, I liked this, but wouldn't make it the Black Sealion throne?



Perhaps they just shortened the name? Or maybe a sub-set of the Neheli in Gradsul use a Sealion?



smillan_31 wrote:




I've made up an order of Keoish knights in my Sterich campaign, the Knights of the Golden Lions, composed mainly of strongly Suloise -blooded knights from southern keoish noble families. I haven't made up arms for them yet but I'm thinking 3 gold lions passant on a red field, based on the royal arms of England, established by Richard the Lionheart. This could be related to some of the families of house Rhola, who are allied and members of this order. I'm with rasgon on the Black Lion throne originating with the Neheli.


-Black Lion = House Neheli; Red = House Rhola? Maybe the Rhola use a Gold Lion?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rasgon
GreySage


Joined: Aug 03, 2001
Posts: 2734
Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jamesdglick wrote:
-At first glance, I liked this, but wouldn't make it the Black Sealion throne?


No, because both houses use the same royal Keoish throne when they hold the crown. The kingdom uses the same arms regardless of what house is in power.

I'm thinking the arms of Neheli might incorporate a tower, after the Silent Tower.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Crag
Master Greytalker


Joined: Aug 17, 2004
Posts: 893
Location: Computer Desk

PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rasgon, you sure do stir the pot.

I am working on the Holy Kingdom of Erypt; and a neighbouring republic has for its heraldic device; a black sealion.

Why me Question
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
rasgon
GreySage


Joined: Aug 03, 2001
Posts: 2734
Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crag wrote:
Rasgon, you sure do stir the pot.

I am working on the Holy Kingdom of Erypt; and a neighbouring republic has for its heraldic device; a black sealion.

Why me Question


Haha, feel free to ignore me. The Rhola symbol could be something else.

I was thinking about gargoyles today. Greyhawk Adventures said that ancient Suel architecture was gothic in style, so I thought maybe ancient Suloise sorcerers could be responsible for the gargoyle race.

If the Rhola originally held Jascar as their patron, maybe they created creatures of living stone as part of their worship of the god of mountains. Perhaps their symbol could be a gargoyle.

That might be a stretch, but if you already have the sea lion reserved for Western Oerik, it's a possibility.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
smillan_31
Grandmaster Greytalker


Joined: Nov 07, 2004
Posts: 1817
Location: Mt. Smolderac

PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crag wrote:
Rasgon, you sure do stir the pot.

I am working on the Holy Kingdom of Erypt; and a neighbouring republic has for its heraldic device; a black sealion.

Why me Question


And the See of Medegia used a gold, crowned sealion on a blue field as their arms.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Canonfire Forum Index -> Keoland All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Canonfire phpBB2 theme by Jakob Persson (http://www.eddingschronicles.com).
Powered by phpBB © 2001 phpBB Group
All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Stone textures by Patty Herford
Ported for PHP-Nuke by nukemods.com
Forums ©


Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises

Contact the Webmaster.  Long Live Spidasa!

PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.
Page Generation: 0.23 Seconds